Difference in Stuff v Velocity? (Full Version)

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rpommier -> Difference in Stuff v Velocity? (8/8/2006 7:09:46 PM)

What the difference in the two and what should I place more emphasis on? Is a pitcher with good STUFF & VELOCITY comprable to Maddux?

Rod



Pronk -> RE: Difference in Stuff v Velocity? (8/8/2006 7:15:13 PM)

I was always under the impression that:

Stuff = quality and kinds of pitches

Velocity = strength/speed of pitches.



PadresFan104 -> RE: Difference in Stuff v Velocity? (8/8/2006 7:28:51 PM)

Stuff is WAY more important than velocity from my experience with the game.  Guy's with good stuff will have lower WHIPs and ERAs.  Velocity is cool for seeing guys harder, and it may lead to more K's, but if they have bad stuff, the velocity won't matter.



rowech -> RE: Difference in Stuff v Velocity? (8/8/2006 7:29:05 PM)

Stuff is the most important...says it right in the readme file.  Velocity I'm finding to not be all that important at all. 



Woodruff -> RE: Difference in Stuff v Velocity? (8/8/2006 8:34:21 PM)

In the "real world", I've always equated "stuff" with "movement on the pitch".

I don't know if that's how it's intended, but that's how I've viewed it.

And I would say that it IS more important in the real world, too...a hitter can hit a 100mph fastball that doesn't move, but an 88mph fastball with great movement is a difficult thing.



SittingDuck -> RE: Difference in Stuff v Velocity? (8/8/2006 11:25:52 PM)

Yeah, I would guess the unique quality of a guy's pitch is 'stuff'.  For example, Carlton's 'Death' slider.  Stuff like that.

Now in the PSBB world, I would use it to also express someone like Jamie Moyer's ability to pitch, not just throw heat.  IOW, to change speeds (although you think of velocity as speed).  Maddux would be low-mid velocity, and uber-high stuff and control.

So it is more like, 'how do these three pitch ratings define the uniqueness of a pitcher'?  And I guess the answer varies a bit for everyone.

The ultimate to me - and you could only really do this for a fictional league because there is no way to accurately gauge historical players on this - would be to have individual pitches rated (like I think OOTP does), along with a few main ratings, velocity being one of them.  The pitch ratings would be the actual rating of 'stuff' for each one.  But again, that wouldn't translate for historical stuff, so kind of pointless.

But it would be cool....



Walewander -> RE: Difference in Stuff v Velocity? (8/8/2006 11:30:50 PM)

I've found that velocity is a pretty important stat (especially coupled with stuff) when your home park is a band box... In small stadiums like that it becomes very important to strike out a lot of batters or the runs come in bunches...



akcranker -> RE: Difference in Stuff v Velocity? (8/8/2006 11:39:03 PM)

I think a pitcher with a high velocity rating has a higher chance of having homeruns hit off them. That's at least what I've noticed in my associations. Don't know if it's true across the board or not. I'll have to go look at the stats.

Okay well looking at one of my associations I'm wrong on that part. The top 10 pitchers allowing the most HR's have velocity ratings between 41 & 64.

In the same association the top 10 pitchers with the most k's have a velocity rating between 58 & 79.



SittingDuck -> RE: Difference in Stuff v Velocity? (8/9/2006 1:00:01 AM)

High velocity pitchers tend to throw 4-seamers - ye olde 'riser'.  And that equates to either K's or HRs, on a pitch-by-pitch basis.

Now what I'd really like is if we knew a pitcher's GB/FB ratio.   Oooooo, that would be incredible.  I do think there is a lot that can be done to reveal a pitcher's unique ability, and this is one of them.  We don't have to mention if he throws a great sinker or not - that can be inferred from a high GB/FB ratio, I guess.   But we wouldn't want pitchers with high rated velocity being GB pitchers, for the most part.

So I'd love to see something like that, because then you can really scout out the type of pitchers you'd like on your squad.  Velocity by itself, without knowing pitch types a pitcher throws, really makes pitchers vague.



akcranker -> RE: Difference in Stuff v Velocity? (8/9/2006 1:03:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SittingDuck

High velocity pitchers tend to throw 4-seamers - ye olde 'riser'. And that equates to either K's or HRs, on a pitch-by-pitch basis.

Now what I'd really like is if we knew a pitcher's GB/FB ratio. Oooooo, that would be incredible. I do think there is a lot that can be done to reveal a pitcher's unique ability, and this is one of them. We don't have to mention if he throws a great sinker or not - that can be inferred from a high GB/FB ratio, I guess. But we wouldn't want pitchers with high rated velocity being GB pitchers, for the most part.

So I'd love to see something like that, because then you can really scout out the type of pitchers you'd like on your squad. Velocity by itself, without knowing pitch types a pitcher throws, really makes pitchers vague.



I've been meaning to post a suggestion in the 2008 thread about something like that. I'd like to see somewhere in the players card or something that shows if a pitcher is more of a groundball pitcher or a flyball pitcher. That would be awesome IMO.



SittingDuck -> RE: Difference in Stuff v Velocity? (8/9/2006 1:05:31 AM)

Totally agree.  I wonder if any of it is already tracked, because if so...

I mean, that would really enlarge the scope of how we view pitchers tremendously.  And that is not a small thing, because I am fairly sure Shaun won't go into the individual pitch type thing (and as I said, for historical that would stink anyhow - a real negative).



PadresFan104 -> RE: Difference in Stuff v Velocity? (8/9/2006 1:35:36 AM)

A bit related to this thread. Today I faced a pitcher rated 10/10 on the speed scale.  I noticed that most right handers were spraying the ball to right field, and vice versa for the left handers.  I happened to be throwing a pitcher with a 4/10 velocity, and his pitches were getting pulled very often.

Shaun has commented that the physics engine that determines hit location is pretty deep, so maybe that's another role velocity plays in the equation...



SittingDuck -> RE: Difference in Stuff v Velocity? (8/9/2006 1:50:18 AM)

Man, I love to hear that stuff.  I never thought to track the ball where it is hit for that aspect.



Hitandrun -> RE: Difference in Stuff v Velocity? (8/9/2006 2:15:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PadresFan104

A bit related to this thread. Today I faced a pitcher rated 10/10 on the speed scale.  I noticed that most right handers were spraying the ball to right field, and vice versa for the left handers.  I happened to be throwing a pitcher with a 4/10 velocity, and his pitches were getting pulled very often.

Shaun has commented that the physics engine that determines hit location is pretty deep, so maybe that's another role velocity plays in the equation...


Interesting. I will have to watch for this.



PadresFan104 -> RE: Difference in Stuff v Velocity? (8/9/2006 3:37:08 AM)

False alarm, I ran this thought by Shaun and I was wrong. Pitch speed does not affect where the ball is hit. I also asked about the GB/FB idea, and while GB's are tracked, there is nothing about the current system that makes a pitcher more likely to have a low or high GB/FB ratio. We just need to add this idea to the wishlist.



PadresFan104 -> RE: Difference in Stuff v Velocity? (8/9/2006 3:39:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: akcranker

I think a pitcher with a high velocity rating has a higher chance of having homeruns hit off them. That's at least what I've noticed in my associations. Don't know if it's true across the board or not. I'll have to go look at the stats.

Okay well looking at one of my associations I'm wrong on that part. The top 10 pitchers allowing the most HR's have velocity ratings between 41 & 64.

In the same association the top 10 pitchers with the most k's have a velocity rating between 58 & 79.


That's interesting ak, I think I might do the same sort of analysis around all of the major stats when my season is over to better understand how ratings equate into K's, BB's, HR's, etc...



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