Forts outside of the town (Full Version)

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Knavey -> Forts outside of the town (8/9/2006 10:31:30 PM)

What do the fort levels mean on a unit that is outside of a city hex? The are listed just under the unit HQ assignment.

Does this mean they get the same "benefits" as a unit in town where the fortifications have actually been built up?

This unit moved into the hex and stopped. 2 days later, it was a fort level 1. Then 2 days later it is a fort level 2. This happens on its own.

Anyone have any input on this?

Thanks,



Knavey -> RE: Forts outside of the town (8/9/2006 10:47:28 PM)

OOPS!

Meant to post the screenie.



[image]local://upfiles/7595/1E2EA848F8354C01AB51A7E91ACFBC38.jpg[/image]



niceguy2005 -> RE: Forts outside of the town (8/9/2006 11:39:33 PM)

Im not positive but I think that they are regular forts. Represents a unit digging in. I think max fort level though is 4.

It has always bothered me a little that a unit can build forts in the country, but not in a base hex if it doesn't have engineers.



DFalcon -> RE: Forts outside of the town (8/10/2006 12:29:07 AM)


I have a Chinese unit in a mountain hex with a fort level of 7 and others that have built up to 5 so 4 is not a hard cap. These are on smaller formations. I have not seen a japanese division get past 2 fort levels. Playing both sides it seems to me that allied units dig in faster and to higher levels. Even units with few engineering assets.



Knavey -> RE: Forts outside of the town (8/10/2006 12:41:57 AM)

Pertinant passages from the manual:


Other terrain types affect combat, whether it be clear, forest, mountain, desert, or swamp; the more thick and impassible the terrain, the more it favors the defense. Rivers disrupt units attacking across them, making their efficiency in combat lower. In addition to it being harder to hit defenders in cover terrain, the assault value of the defending force is multiplied by the following for combat odds calculations:

�� Urban x4
�� Mountain or Swamp x3
�� Jungle/Forest x2

In addition, fortifications can multiply the defending force’s assault value for odds by up to three. - What does this mean and what are the break points for the different levels?


Fortifications enhance the defensive fire of ground units and also make defenders harder to hit; therefore, defenders are given some advantages in the calculation of the odds.

Weapons may only fire if they have successfully acquired a Target. Target acquisition is affected by the Target’s detection level, the firing unit’s fortification level and xperience, and the maximum range of both the firing and target unit. - Who would have thought that fortifications applied to ATTACKERS also?


Bases may be captured due to ground combat based on the calculated odds at the end of the combat. The higher the fortification level, the harder it is to capture a base. The adjusted combat odds must exceed or equal the fortification level for the base plus two for the base to fall. - Does this apply for retreats in non-base terrain?

Example: a fort level of 5 requires 7 to 1 odds to capture.

8.4.2 Ground Units and Fortifications
Ground units that are in a base/beach hex assume the fortification level of the base/beach.
Ground units that are not in a base/beach and are not moving will automatically attempt to build fortifications to protect themselves from attacking enemy ground units. Engineers in the hex will help in the building of these fortifications. Although fortifications can be built by units without the help of engineers, the work will proceed very slowly.

All bases have a Fortification Level that gives protection for any friendly ground units that are in the hex and defending against an enemy attack. All friendly ground units assume the Fortification Level of the base whenever in the same hex with a base. Also, the higher the Fortification Level, the harder it is to capture a base. This level is a number from 0 to 9.



AmiralLaurent -> RE: Forts outside of the town (8/10/2006 12:13:22 PM)

It seems to me that I have an unit somewhere in China that didn't move for one year and now has fort 9 in the open. On the other hand, another unit (a SNLF) without engineers had spent so much time not moving on a rod hex and still has no forts. On the other hand SNLF units that shared their hex with other units have fort level.

My opinion on this:
_ there is no limit
_ An unit will gain fort levels only if there are engineers in the hex (not always in the same unit)
_ units sharing the same hex will have different fort levels.

As for being compelled to retreat, it seems to me that a 2 to 1 ratio will be enough in all cases in open terrain.. At least I have never seen an unit being beaten at 2 to 1 or more and being able to retreat remain where it was. I have never monitored such an unit to see if the enemy attacks may reduce its fortification level.



tabpub -> RE: Forts outside of the town (8/10/2006 12:34:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

It seems to me that I have an unit somewhere in China that didn't move for one year and now has fort 9 in the open. On the other hand, another unit (a SNLF) without engineers had spent so much time not moving on a rod hex and still has no forts. On the other hand SNLF units that shared their hex with other units have fort level.

My opinion on this:
_ there is no limit
_ An unit will gain fort levels only if there are engineers in the hex (not always in the same unit)
_ units sharing the same hex will have different fort levels.

As for being compelled to retreat, it seems to me that a 2 to 1 ratio will be enough in all cases in open terrain.. At least I have never seen an unit being beaten at 2 to 1 or more and being able to retreat remain where it was. I have never monitored such an unit to see if the enemy attacks may reduce its fortification level.

Wow, a 9 in the open; highest I recall having was a brigade in Burma on a mountain hex at 8. Divisions usually stop at 3, though I might have seen 4's, can't be sure here. Smaller units seem to go higher than larger.
Agree that eng need to be there, and amount helps, the more the merrier; and units in the same hex do have different levels; the level on the "force"screen seems to be the average, I don't know if weighted or not.
I have seen units beaten by 2 to 1 not retreat during Mog's abortive advance on Seattle.
A division might be only at 1, he would get a 3 to 1 on the hex and the division would retreat, leaving RCTs' that had higher fort levels still in the hex.



AmiralLaurent -> RE: Forts outside of the town (8/10/2006 1:34:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tabpub

Wow, a 9 in the open; highest I recall having was a brigade in Burma on a mountain hex at 8. Divisions usually stop at 3, though I might have seen 4's, can't be sure here. Smaller units seem to go higher than larger.
Agree that eng need to be there, and amount helps, the more the merrier; and units in the same hex do have different levels; the level on the "force"screen seems to be the average, I don't know if weighted or not.
I have seen units beaten by 2 to 1 not retreat during Mog's abortive advance on Seattle.
A division might be only at 1, he would get a 3 to 1 on the hex and the division would retreat, leaving RCTs' that had higher fort levels still in the hex.


Thans for the detail, tabpub, I was then wondering if I had ever seen an equilibrated fight in the open. I remember blocking or being blocked in montains hexes (but all attacks were at 0 to 1), all other battles in the open were either quick and crushing victories for one side, or long reduction of surrounded units.

Now that you say that, my unit with fort 9 is a half-Bde or a third of a Div. It didn't move at all for 11 months...



Knavey -> RE: Forts outside of the town (8/12/2006 4:46:37 AM)

Well it is interesting that you guys have observed the some of the same results I have. The unit I posted earlier actually had only been in that hex a couple of days, but had a fort level 2. I "assumed" (stupid me) that meant that it would take 4 to 1 odds to force a retreat which was not the case. He got 2 to 1 (barely) and of course the unit retreated. I am not sure that the forts actually did anything.

Thanks for the input so far.




Nikademus -> RE: Forts outside of the town (8/12/2006 5:07:19 AM)

Fort levels in a non-base hex make it harder to achieve the necessary 2:1 odds to force a retreat. In base hexes the normal display requires the mod odds to exceed the current fort level.



Yava -> RE: Forts outside of the town (8/13/2006 1:37:44 AM)

Hmmm I thought that even in bases ome units fortify...



Knavey -> RE: Forts outside of the town (8/13/2006 4:13:11 AM)

I think in bases the units take on the base level of the fort that the base has been built up to.

I suppose the way to check this is find a base with a VERY low fort level, and page through the units to see if any of them have a higher fort value than the base itself.

Of course, it looks like base forts are better than non-base forts.



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