Mixed order upgrade (Full Version)

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carburo -> Mixed order upgrade (8/17/2006 10:07:36 PM)

IIRC from a previous discussion, the follow-up charge from the mixed order upgrade wasn’t supposed to allow you to displace the enemy unit, nor should it cause your unit to become disordered after the charge. I’m playing France again after installing the patch and I’m finding that if I fire to an adjacent unit and get the opportunity charge my infantry frequently gets out of position and disordered.

Was the upgrade changed in the last patch?



gdpsnake -> RE: Mixed order upgrade (8/19/2006 10:53:38 PM)

yes,
This unfortunate feature one has no control over needs to be fixed. Perhaps the player should be asked: "Do you wish to opportunity charge?"
Speaking of opportunity, the main purpose of cav is to stop other cav charges - would love to see opportunity charges by friendly cav that can countercharge charging enemy cav and thus stop them if successful.



carburo -> RE: Mixed order upgrade (8/20/2006 12:57:30 AM)

I'd love that cavalry couldn't make U turns when charging. It's especially annoying when they zigzag through your units to charge your only supply. The only way of protecting the caissons is to completely surround them with your units, which doesn’t make much sense to me.
A big penalty to cavalry for turning would be a good idea.



ericbabe -> RE: Mixed order upgrade (8/21/2006 11:42:28 PM)

Cavalry can't charge caissons or artillery if they're adjacent to any of your infantry, so there's no need to totally surround a caisson to protect it.

A cavalry's actual charge is only considered to be the short distance from the adjacent hex.  The horses would wear out if cavalry were charging throughout their entire movement.  Cavalry, as all units, spend movement points whenever they change facing.



carburo -> RE: Mixed order upgrade (8/22/2006 3:29:01 AM)

In my experience they can’t charge if the hex they are charging from is adjacent to one of your units, and you need at least two formed units to protect a caisson.

Yes, cavalry spends movement points to change facing; it's just that IMHO the penalty should be greater. A matter of taste I suppose. As it is now they can zigzag through your units to get to the caissons in the back.

BTW, was mixed order changed? IIRC, the charging unit wasn't supposed to either displace the enemy unit or get disordered.



Hedgehog -> RE: Mixed order upgrade (8/23/2006 7:24:22 AM)

My experience is that while human players are not permitted to charge enemy artillery with an adjacent infanty unit, the AI operates a little looser.
ie:  if hex faces are labelled A~>F, my artillery with an adjacent infantry to hex face A is still vulnerable to enemy cavalry charges vs, hex faces C~>E, B&F being protected.  Likewise, if that artillery unit has two infantry units adjacent to hex faces A&E, the unit is vulnerable to a charge vs. face C. 
While this has been irksome, I have learned to use artillery as bait to draw enemy cavalry into traps, where they can be dissected at leisure.




Jakerson -> RE: Mixed order upgrade (8/23/2006 7:53:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gdpsnake

yes,
This unfortunate feature one has no control over needs to be fixed. Perhaps the player should be asked: "Do you wish to opportunity charge?"
Speaking of opportunity, the main purpose of cav is to stop other cav charges - would love to see opportunity charges by friendly cav that can countercharge charging enemy cav and thus stop them if successful.


I think too much control over units ruins the whole idea of game in this era all armies had big command and control problems. Charging after a volley was historical way to fight in this era and many times commaders charged even if their superior officer didn't agree them to charge.

In this era many commanders had no maps and no ability to see battlefield trough each other eyes and there is numerous real life examples at times when attack was ordered divisional and corps commanders had only vague idea where they actually should attack according to orders as they had no maps or maps where very poor quality. Sometimes army, corps and divisional commanders all had different version of totally outdated maps.



Russian Guard -> RE: Mixed order upgrade (8/23/2006 8:24:27 AM)

In general I agree with you. It's my humble opinion that players often seek a level of control over their units that isn't remotely conceivable if we are trying at all to enact something of a simulation of battle of the period. It could easily be argued that we have way too much control as it is.

Now, having said that [:D] I do dislike the idea that, movement points available, units with this upgrade ALWAYS attack after a volley, against adjacent disordered units, usually disordering themselves in the process. Any enemy cavalry in the vicinity then roars after the disordered unit, usually causing far more casualties to that unit than the preceding mixed order charge accomplished.

But as with most issues with CoG (notwithstanding the TCP/IP issue), I can easily live with it. This isn't a biggie (for me).





carburo -> RE: Mixed order upgrade (8/24/2006 2:43:54 AM)

I was used to live with it too, until Turkey declared war on me. The Turks simply park an irregular cavalry, those you can disorder with a single volley, in front of your infrantry, and sit there. You then have two options: fire at them, get the opportunity charge, and watch your infantry swarmed by the rest of the Turkish army after getting disordered when charging, or simply wait and...



Clausel -> RE: Mixed order upgrade (8/24/2006 2:57:34 PM)

I don't think the opportunity charge should be allowed against cavalry. Whilst there may have been a few exceptional historical examples for the period 1793-1815, surely most infantry then were very cautious, in terms of aggresssive movement (as distinct from firepower), when operating alone against cavalry. Instead they tended to rely on their own cavalry to counter-charge enemy mounted troops, even when the latter were disordered.

[:)] On reflection, its really charging that's ruled out rather than aggressive movement. Bold infantry frequently advanced aggressively before forming squares but even when they defeated cavalry through firepower and/or bayonet defence they usually couldn't risk charging - presumably for fear of other ordered enemy cavalry. If the infantry did advance it was usually in square or close column whilst cavalry threatened. Even on the occasions when infantry remained in line against cavalry - defence was the priority.



General Lee -> RE: Mixed order upgrade (8/30/2006 1:56:20 AM)

so are you saying that if you have 2 divisions around the supply, then cavalry can't charge? Also, i have the same problem, with having a fully formed battleline, except for ,maybe 1 or 2 gaps and enemy cavalry pass through the gaps, past about 30,000 soldiers to get to my supply, without a scratch on them. Isn't there some kind of zone of control for infantry?



jimwinsor -> RE: Mixed order upgrade (8/30/2006 2:06:37 AM)

Yes there is movement-inhibiting ZOC in the game, but Cavalry can ignore infantry ZOC.  But not Cav ZOC.



Joram -> RE: Mixed order upgrade (8/30/2006 4:04:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: General Lee

so are you saying that if you have 2 divisions around the supply, then cavalry can't charge? Also, i have the same problem, with having a fully formed battleline, except for ,maybe 1 or 2 gaps and enemy cavalry pass through the gaps, past about 30,000 soldiers to get to my supply, without a scratch on them. Isn't there some kind of zone of control for infantry?


What Jim said as well as the fact light infantry and irregular cavalry can also move through zone of control with some movement penalty. But they can get through. Also, you don't extend ZOC across rivers nor changes in elevation.



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