Can the Union emancipate? (Full Version)

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USSLockwood -> Can the Union emancipate? (8/19/2006 10:10:35 PM)

Can the Union emancipate the slaves? It's always fun to turn the war into a 'remorseless revolutionary struggle'.


Dave
San Diego
Home of the World's busiest Radar Approach Control



marecone -> RE: Can the Union emancipate? (8/19/2006 10:27:29 PM)

Also, can Confederacy give slaves combat roles?



ptan54 -> RE: Can the Union emancipate? (8/22/2006 1:10:13 AM)

If Emancipation is hardcoded to be sometime in 1862-3 (or whenever Lincoln is still in charge) after a series of Union victories....then perhaps a string of Confederate wins can 1) avert the Emancipation Proclamation and 2) increase the chances of European intervention. Without the morally charged "crusade" aspect of emancipation, the European powers were always more likely to mediate - in real life, Antietam was what let Abe issue the order.



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Can the Union emancipate? (8/22/2006 6:53:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doktor

It's always fun to turn the war into a 'remorseless revolutionary struggle'.



I believe it actually was.

lincoln released no slaves in areas he actually had juristriction and only did so in the areas he had no power over in hopes that the slaves would rise up agaist their owners families while they were off fighting. Members of his own cabinet thought it paramount to murder.

One should note that the war was fought in lincolns own words to preserve the union and only when it became politically advantageous took the path of the great emancipator. One need to look at the lincoln Dougalas debate to see where he stood (for that moment). I do not endorse slavery but one should get all the facts instead of relying on the Dept. of Mis-Educations PC touchy-feely one sided version. Not that you do but it is amazing at those who will. Here in Southern Mo. some of our history teachers actually care about ALL the issues at hand in determing the course of events leading up to the war. My daughter and I were very pleased with her history teacher last yeat (8th grade) when he informed a confused class as to the real motives behind the war, including but definately not limited to the mainstream views.

mo reb

sorry so sloppy...lack of sleep



benpark -> RE: Can the Union emancipate? (8/22/2006 7:33:59 AM)

An excellent book on the subject is "Arguing About Slavery". Pre ACW, but it puts the whole issue in perspective, particularly in regards to the "State's Rights" issue as the cause of the war.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679768440/sr=8-1/qid=1156221129/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1187885-8347909?ie=UTF8




ericbabe -> RE: Can the Union emancipate? (8/22/2006 3:49:03 PM)

Both sides have the option to emancipate.  It has different effects for each side, modifying relations with European powers and some aspects of internal attitude and economy.  If the South emancipates, there's a chance that each state in the CSA will step down from the war.



spence -> RE: Can the Union emancipate? (8/26/2006 6:24:38 PM)

quote:

If the South emancipates, there's a chance that each state in the CSA will step down from the war.


Even allowing that there were other issues which led to the American Civil War; the Southern Congress/President emancipating the slaves feels about as right as Hitler stepping down and handing over power to an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi from Vienna.



Gil R. -> RE: Can the Union emancipate? (8/26/2006 6:37:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

If the South emancipates, there's a chance that each state in the CSA will step down from the war.


Even allowing that there were other issues which led to the American Civil War; the Southern Congress/President emancipating the slaves feels about as right as Hitler stepping down and handing over power to an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi from Vienna.



True, but there were some southerners who suggested it, so why not make it an option for both sides?



spence -> RE: Can the Union emancipate? (8/27/2006 3:48:35 PM)

quote:

True, but there were some southerners who suggested it, so why not make it an option for both sides?


S'been quite a while since I read up on the American Civil War or at least about this topic.  I do know that at some point around Feb/Mar 1865 a proposal was made by somebody in Richmond to offer freedom to any slave who joined the Confederate Army.  Frankly I can't remember whether that proposal for LIMITED EMANCIPATION got anywhere or whether it just came up for some debate (I suspect the latter).  Realistic options for the players are one thing but fantasy options remove the history from the historical simulation/game.   



Gil R. -> RE: Can the Union emancipate? (8/27/2006 7:57:01 PM)

Many people also like historical games because of the ahistorical "what-if" aspect. In "Forge of Freedom" a skilled (and lucky!) player can probably lead the Confederate armies northward and have them capture all of Pennsylvania, New Jersey and New York. I don't believe that the South ever debated doing this, but players who want to see what the effects would have been can attempt it. Similarly, if the South tries to emancipate, there will be certain gains (e.g., a favorable diplomatic response from the European powers), but also a loss of National Will (one of the key stats in the game), and each Confederate state will have a chance to withdraw support for the war effort. Since at least a limited emancipation was debated in the South, there seems no reason not to make this an option -- after all, no one is forced to press the "Emancipate" button.



spence -> RE: Can the Union emancipate? (8/27/2006 9:43:56 PM)

quote:

ADJT. AND INSP. GENERAL'S OFFICE,
Richmond, Va., March 23, 1865.

GENERAL ORDERS, No. 14.

I. The following act of Congress and regulations are published for the information and direction of all concerned:

AN ACT to increase the military force of the Confederate States.
The Congress of the Confederate States of America do enact, That, in order to provide additional forces to repel invasion, maintain the rightful possession of the Confederate States, secure their independence, and preserve their institutions, the President be, and he is hereby, authorized to ask for and accept from the owners of slaves, the services of such number of able-bodied negro men as he may deem expedient, for and during the war, to perform military service in whatever capacity he may direct.

SEC 2. That the General-in-Chief be authorized to organize the said slaves into companies, battalions, regiments, and brigades, under such rules and regulations as the Secretary of War may prescribe, and to be commanded by such officers as the President may appoint.

SEC 3. That while employed in the service the said troops shall receive the same rations, clothing, and compensation as are allowed to other troops in the same branch of the service.

SEC 4. That if, under the previous sections of this act, the President shall not be able to raise a sufficient number of troops to prosecute the war successfully and maintain the sovereignty of the States and the independence of the Confederate States, then he is hereby authorized to call on each State, whenever he thinks it expedient, for her quota of 300,000 troops, in addition to those subject to military service under existing laws, or so many thereof as the President may deem necessary to be raised from such classes of the population, irrespective of color, in each State, as the proper authorities thereof may determine: Provided, That not more than twenty-five per cent. of the male slaves between the ages of eighteen and forty-five, in any State, shall be called for under the provisions of this act.

SEC 5. That nothing in this act shall be construed to authorize a change in the relation which the said slaves shall bear toward their owners, except by consent of the owners and of the States in which they may reside, and in pursuance of the laws thereof.

Approved March 13, 1865.



Well I found that which I was thinking of...the slaves can be recruited if the master gives his permission but they don't even get to be free after serving...that's a good deal[8|]

...here boy; doan wants to be de slave no mo'...makes yow mark here and signs up for de Minneball Sweepstakes



USSLockwood -> RE: Can the Union emancipate? (8/28/2006 10:10:40 PM)

I will restrain my tounge and pen, I will restrain my tounge and pen. Iwill, I will!



Williamb -> RE: Can the Union emancipate? (8/30/2006 5:21:35 AM)

Pat Cleburne one of the South's better Division commanders recommened this. He stated that if the South lost then the slaves would be free anyways so it was better to give them freedom and the South survive than keep them as slaves and lose the war.

For that reason Cleburne never was promoted about the rank of Major General despite his repeated skills on the battlefeild.

But Lincoln himself argued in the early part of the war that this war was about "Preserving the Union" and not slavery.



jchastain -> RE: Can the Union emancipate? (9/1/2006 4:24:31 PM)

Eric has already stated above that currently both sides have the ability to emancipate.  So what we are really talking about here is whether they should expend the effort to remove that capability.  Is anyone here seriously arguing that instead of building other neat features or applying additional polish to this game, what they should be focused on is instead going back and removing this ability?  Sure - I hope that the cost/benefit ratio for the South choosing such an option is so lopsided that it has no practical purpose since that better reflects the real world - the South could have emancipated the slaves there was no support for doing so and they therefore choose not to because it just didn't make any sense for them to do so.  Beyond that, I would personally rather see effort focused in other areas. 



Gil R. -> RE: Can the Union emancipate? (9/7/2006 12:42:28 AM)

A quick update: we have decided to make southern emancipation a game option, so that players who don't want to do it (if playing the South) and don't want the AI to do it (if playing the North) can turn off this function. This should prove satisfactory both to those who want a more historical game and those who enjoy the "what-ifs."

We also added a rule that causes a chance of unrest in the slave-holding Union states when the North emancipates. (Unrest in the game can be very, very bad, cutting off production from an area for a time and even destroying some infrastructure.)

We appreciate all the input that we have received on this issue.



eastemnet -> RE: Can the Union emancipate? (9/7/2006 3:25:40 AM)

A southern emancipation option?

Very interesting, I will have to try it.



Grotius -> RE: Can the Union emancipate? (9/7/2006 8:30:14 AM)

A wise choice to make it an option. That should make everyone happy. :)



Oldguard -> RE: Can the Union emancipate? (9/20/2006 11:00:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

We also added a rule that causes a chance of unrest in the slave-holding Union states when the North emancipates. (Unrest in the game can be very, very bad, cutting off production from an area for a time and even destroying some infrastructure.)

Whoa. Now THAT is what I call a nice wrinkle!

Keep it up. Get me any more excited about this game and I'm going to have to start taking tranquilizers.




dh76513 -> RE: Can the Union emancipate? (9/21/2006 3:34:22 PM)

Among some of the game features, the website boasts, “Control the careers of more than 1,000 generals....every general from the Civil War!” Is it possible to restructure, the union or confederate command structure by promoting, and/or reassigning field generals outside the historical boundaries or are the players not allowed to manipulate the command structure (e.g., would it be possible to replace Robert Lee with James Longstreet or Ulysses Grant with William Sherman; is it possible for Lee to accept a major command for the Union)? In Fact, Lee almost did accept a Union command appointment. However, when Lee’s home state of Virginia seceded he decided to join the Confederacy with his family, friends, and other Virginians to protect his homeland.



Oldguard -> RE: Can the Union emancipate? (9/21/2006 4:38:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dh76513

Among some of the game features, the website boasts, “Control the careers of more than 1,000 generals....every general from the Civil War!” Is it possible to restructure, the union or confederate command structure by promoting, and/or reassigning field generals outside the historical boundaries or are the players not allowed to manipulate the command structure (e.g., would it be possible to replace Robert Lee with James Longstreet or Ulysses Grant with William Sherman; is it possible for Lee to accept a major command for the Union)? In Fact, Lee almost did accept a Union command appointment. However, when Lee’s home state of Virginia seceded he decided to join the Confederacy with his family, friends, and other Virginians to protect his homeland.

That's a great question. I hope Gil finds time to answer. With the benefit of hindsight (and possibly the actual numbers in the game relating to command efficiency) we would want to put a Hancock or a Reynolds in charge of the AoP instead of McClellan or Hooker, obviating the need to move Grant east after Vicksburg. The "what if" following Lee accepting a Union command, however, I'm not so sure of -- that would totally alter the complexion of the entire war.

There was also serious thought given to sending Longstreet's corp west to try to shore up the situation there, but Lee argued that an invasion of the North would be better use of resources and thus launched the Gettysburg campaign.

I'd read that one of the objectives Lee considered during his retreat from Petersburg was the possibility of linking up with the western armies.



Gil R. -> RE: Can the Union emancipate? (9/21/2006 6:48:55 PM)

Generals can be promoted and demoted, and assigned to any theater. So Lee can be sent to Galveston to oversee a worthless division that's parked there in case an amphibious assault is attempted. Not that I'd recommend doing that.

There is no way within the game to have a general switch sides, but my guess is that one could tinker with one or more data files to achieve this. What you do in the privacy of your own homes is your business...



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