Jap Factories (Full Version)

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Sardonic -> Jap Factories (8/23/2006 12:23:39 AM)

I only got one reply the last time I asked.

Do I have to manually convert all my aircraft factories?

Because they are NOT converting to Zeke

Or Tony or Tojo




BlackVoid -> RE: Jap Factories (8/23/2006 12:38:17 AM)

I would also like to see a list which factories autoconvert and which have to be manually converted.



ChezDaJez -> RE: Jap Factories (8/23/2006 1:11:00 AM)

There is an issue with auto conversion of A6M2 Zero factories that is often overlooked. The A6M2 was both a land and sea based aircraft. The upgrade for it actually divides into 2 paths: one for land-based, the A6M3 and one for sea-based, the A6M3a. The A6M3 is not carrier capable. IRL Japan only produced a few hundred of this variant because it couldn't deploy on carriers. Once the A6M5 became available, the upgrade path for both the A6M3 and the A6M3a became a single path once again.

So if all your Zero factories auto converted to A6M3 production in April 42, you would have no further A6M2 production for sea-based units. The A6M3a doesn't begin production until Nov 42 IIRC. That would pretty much leave the carriers in the lurch unless you had a significant pool built up (and we all know how fast that can disappear during heavy fighting).

The same reasoning applies to the Oscar upgrade path. there are 2 upgrades for it: the Tony and the Tojo. So your factories won't all convert to them.

From what I've seen, they will only auto convert when there is a single upgrade path to convert to. That is why Claudes auto upgrade to A6M2s at a certain point. The same with Nates. I have as yet been able to determine the timing of when auto convert occurs. I think that its tied to Hi or supply levels but I have found no reference for that nor have I been able to determine a required level.

I manually upgrade all my factories when needed. I don't like to wait for the computer to do it. It costs my HI and supply but at least I'm getting some produced.

Chez



Big B -> RE: Jap Factories (8/23/2006 1:36:57 AM)

Chez, are you sure about A6M3 and A6M3a?
I think you may have them reversed, pretty sure slot #4 is A6M3.

Not that it matters - you're point is still taken.


B
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

There is an issue with auto conversion of A6M2 Zero factories that is often overlooked. The A6M2 was both a land and sea based aircraft. The upgrade for it actually divides into 2 paths: one for land-based, the A6M3 and one for sea-based, the A6M3a. The A6M3 is not carrier capable. IRL Japan only produced a few hundred of this variant because it couldn't deploy on carriers. Once the A6M5 became available, the upgrade path for both the A6M3 and the A6M3a became a single path once again.

So if all your Zero factories auto converted to A6M3 production in April 42, you would have no further A6M2 production for sea-based units. The A6M3a doesn't begin production until Nov 42 IIRC. That would pretty much leave the carriers in the lurch unless you had a significant pool built up (and we all know how fast that can disappear during heavy fighting).

The same reasoning applies to the Oscar upgrade path. there are 2 upgrades for it: the Tony and the Tojo. So your factories won't all convert to them.

From what I've seen, they will only auto convert when there is a single upgrade path to convert to. That is why Claudes auto upgrade to A6M2s at a certain point. The same with Nates. I have as yet been able to determine the timing of when auto convert occurs. I think that its tied to Hi or supply levels but I have found no reference for that nor have I been able to determine a required level.

I manually upgrade all my factories when needed. I don't like to wait for the computer to do it. It costs my HI and supply but at least I'm getting some produced.

Chez




Big B -> RE: Jap Factories (8/23/2006 2:53:13 AM)

A little confusion here - but according to the Editor Manual, slots 1-7 and 15-23 are Japanese carrier capable...so ALL Zeros should be carrier capable if that is still true..[&:]

B
quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Chez, are you sure about A6M3 and A6M3a?
I think you may have them reversed, pretty sure slot #4 is A6M3.

Not that it matters - you're point is still taken.


B
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

There is an issue with auto conversion of A6M2 Zero factories that is often overlooked. The A6M2 was both a land and sea based aircraft. The upgrade for it actually divides into 2 paths: one for land-based, the A6M3 and one for sea-based, the A6M3a. The A6M3 is not carrier capable. IRL Japan only produced a few hundred of this variant because it couldn't deploy on carriers. Once the A6M5 became available, the upgrade path for both the A6M3 and the A6M3a became a single path once again.

So if all your Zero factories auto converted to A6M3 production in April 42, you would have no further A6M2 production for sea-based units. The A6M3a doesn't begin production until Nov 42 IIRC. That would pretty much leave the carriers in the lurch unless you had a significant pool built up (and we all know how fast that can disappear during heavy fighting).

The same reasoning applies to the Oscar upgrade path. there are 2 upgrades for it: the Tony and the Tojo. So your factories won't all convert to them.

From what I've seen, they will only auto convert when there is a single upgrade path to convert to. That is why Claudes auto upgrade to A6M2s at a certain point. The same with Nates. I have as yet been able to determine the timing of when auto convert occurs. I think that its tied to Hi or supply levels but I have found no reference for that nor have I been able to determine a required level.

I manually upgrade all my factories when needed. I don't like to wait for the computer to do it. It costs my HI and supply but at least I'm getting some produced.

Chez





dtravel -> RE: Jap Factories (8/23/2006 3:58:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

From what I've seen, they will only auto convert when there is a single upgrade path to convert to. That is why Claudes auto upgrade to A6M2s at a certain point. The same with Nates. I have as yet been able to determine the timing of when auto convert occurs. I think that its tied to Hi or supply levels but I have found no reference for that nor have I been able to determine a required level.


There is a randomness built in to when factories convert. It appears they will convert some time during the month the new planes become available but is random as to what day of the month. So they may not convert until the last day of the month (which most people would interpret as "not converting" since it doesn't happen at the beginning of the month).



ChezDaJez -> RE: Jap Factories (8/23/2006 8:59:11 AM)

quote:

A little confusion here - but according to the Editor Manual, slots 1-7 and 15-23 are Japanese carrier capable...so ALL Zeros should be carrier capable if that is still true..


I was slightly off.

The game will only allow carrier-based A6M2s to upgrade to the A6M3a but land-based A6M2s can upgrade to either the A6M3 or to the A6M3a. This is with PDU on.

The A6M3 is not carrier-capable, as it wasn't IRL. The A6M3a is carrier capable.

Chez



Hoplosternum -> RE: Jap Factories (8/23/2006 12:50:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

There is an issue with auto conversion of A6M2 Zero factories that is often overlooked. The A6M2 was both a land and sea based aircraft. The upgrade for it actually divides into 2 paths: one for land-based, the A6M3 and one for sea-based, the A6M3a. The A6M3 is not carrier capable. IRL Japan only produced a few hundred of this variant because it couldn't deploy on carriers. Once the A6M5 became available, the upgrade path for both the A6M3 and the A6M3a became a single path once again.

So if all your Zero factories auto converted to A6M3 production in April 42, you would have no further A6M2 production for sea-based units. The A6M3a doesn't begin production until Nov 42 IIRC. That would pretty much leave the carriers in the lurch unless you had a significant pool built up (and we all know how fast that can disappear during heavy fighting).

The same reasoning applies to the Oscar upgrade path. there are 2 upgrades for it: the Tony and the Tojo. So your factories won't all convert to them.

From what I've seen, they will only auto convert when there is a single upgrade path to convert to. That is why Claudes auto upgrade to A6M2s at a certain point. The same with Nates. I have as yet been able to determine the timing of when auto convert occurs. I think that its tied to Hi or supply levels but I have found no reference for that nor have I been able to determine a required level.

I manually upgrade all my factories when needed. I don't like to wait for the computer to do it. It costs my HI and supply but at least I'm getting some produced.

Chez


Chez,

You know a lot about Japan in the game but is this correct at all? [X(][:)][X(]

There is only one upgrade path for all aircraft. In the editor you can make individual squadrons go elsewhere (then they later follow the upgrade path of the chosen initial upgrade). I don't believe the program has a split upgrade path.

Surely the 'official' upgrade to the A6M2 is the A6M3a - otherwise the AI would upgrade the A6M2s to none CV capable A6M3s and the AI would be screwed. Plus all factories would auto convert and every Japanese player, but again the AI especially, would run out of A6M2s before the A6M3as appeared even if those CV squadrons were configured to upgrade to the A6M3a not the A6M3? Some of the land based squadrons are simply set to go to the A6M3. None of these will have been Claudes previously as there is no way to set a none standard upgrade path further ahead than the next aircraft.

Both A6M3 & A6M3a upgrade to the A6M5 (or the A3M3 to the A6M3a?). So they both join the same upgrade path. But this happens with a lot of planes. B-24Ds and B-17Fs both upgrade to the later B-24s. Marauders and Mitchell Cs to the Mitchell J. But in the editor there will only be one 'official' upgrade for each plane type. And that is what the factories auto upgrade to.

The Japanese start with an R&D A6M3 factory I believe which supplies these planes. The A6M2s will upgrade to the A6M3as later.

It is a well known 'feature' that the auto upgrade does not happen immeadiately in all cases. But I believe it happens to all aircraft that 'upgrade' which is why you can't build any more Nells, Marys, Theresas etc. as when you convert a factory to these types it auto upgrades a few days later. And trust me on this I've tried [:D] I couldn't understand at first why I kept building Hickories when what I wanted was Theresas [:D]

But auto upgrading is 'free' and invoves no loss of supply repairing manual changed factories, nor loss of production while they are repairing, nor shrinkage of output like a manual change does. I am surprised you take the hit [:)]





Drongo -> RE: Jap Factories (8/23/2006 2:15:34 PM)

Both the A6M3 and A6M3a are carrier capable in the game.

In most stock scenarios though, you won't see an upgrade option for Jap CV based fighter units that includes the A6M3.

IIRC, the campaign starting Aug '42 may be one of the few that allows it as the Jap CVs start with A6M3s on board in that scenario.



ChezDaJez -> RE: Jap Factories (8/23/2006 7:30:29 PM)

quote:

There is only one upgrade path for all aircraft. In the editor you can make individual squadrons go elsewhere (then they later follow the upgrade path of the chosen initial upgrade). I don't believe the program has a split upgrade path.


That is not always correct as is the case with the A6M2 upgrade path. There are two of them, one for land-based and one for sea-based. The AI does NOT auto convert all the factories to A6M3, it basically ignores the 2 paths. You'ld be screwed if it did. That's why I said this:

quote:

From what I've seen, they will only auto convert when there is a single upgrade path to convert to.


When the A6M3 comes online, one factory will begin building it and I believe that it is a RD-factory that comes online. In other words it was researching A6M3 production.

Also, remember the squadron upgrade path is different than the factory upgrade path.

Chez



ChezDaJez -> RE: Jap Factories (8/23/2006 7:34:54 PM)

quote:

In most stock scenarios though, you won't see an upgrade option for Jap CV based fighter units that includes the A6M3.


I am only familiar with the stock scenario 15 and carrier-based squadrons cannot upgrade to the A6M3 with PDUN on of off.

You are correct and I was wrong that the A6M3 is carrier capable. Land-based squadrons can transfer to a carrier with it. Its just the carrier-based squadrons that can't use it.

Personally, I would to upgrade the carrier-based squadrons to it where the range is a better match with the bombers and leave the longer range A6M3a for land units.

Chez



Drongo -> RE: Jap Factories (8/23/2006 8:32:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
That is not always correct as is the case with the A6M2 upgrade path. There are two of them, one for land-based and one for sea-based. The AI does NOT auto convert all the factories to A6M3, it basically ignores the 2 paths. You'ld be screwed if it did. That's why I said this:

quote:

From what I've seen, they will only auto convert when there is a single upgrade path to convert to.


When the A6M3 comes online, one factory will begin building it and I believe that it is a RD-factory that comes online. In other words it was researching A6M3 production.

Also, remember the squadron upgrade path is different than the factory upgrade path.

Chez

Actually, I'd view it a bit differently. There is only one upgrade path for the A6M2 aircraft and that is the one set up in the database, the A6M3a.

Factories always "auto upgrade" using the "upgrade" listed for that aircraft type in the database. So A6M2 factories will only "auto upgrade" to the A6M3a, never the A6M3. It's worth noting too that if an A6M2 factory exists in a mid or late war scenario where say the A6M5 is now available, it will still convert first to the A6M3a and then to the A6M5 but since it'll most likely do it on the same turn, it will appear as if the A6M2 factory converted straight to the A6M5.

It's been a while since I looked at this in testing (so bear with me) but the "split" upgrade path only applies to individual air units (as you mentioned) but it has a fair bit to it.

When PDUs are off, the default upgrade for any A6M2 equipped squadron (land or CV based) is the A6M3a unless that particular air unit has been given a specific upgrade path in the database.

When PDUs are on, the upgrade choices for any A6M2 equipped unit will consist of the A6M3a and any other aircraft type equipping any other fighter air units (on map or future reinforcements) of that same nationality, service and type of operational base (ie either land or CV based).

So the reason the A6M3 may not come up as one of the upgrade choices for A6M2 equipped units on CVs when PDUs are off in a scenario will most likely be because no CV based IJN fighter unit (on map or future reinforcement) is equipped with the A6M3 anywhere in that scenario. On the other hand, land based IJN fighter units normally get it as a choice as there is normally at least one IJN land based fighter unit somewhere in the scenario that is equipped with it or will arrive as a later reinforcement equipped with it.

There's a bit more to it than this but I can't go on as my brain just exploded.

Cheers



ChezDaJez -> RE: Jap Factories (8/23/2006 11:59:24 PM)

quote:

So the reason the A6M3 may not come up as one of the upgrade choices for A6M2 equipped units on CVs when PDUs are off


It doesn't come up with PDU on either. The A6M3 is only available for land-based units.

In clarification of my statement:

quote:

Also, remember the squadron upgrade path is different than the factory upgrade path.


The two paths are different. Its true that A6M2 factories will auto upgrade to the A6M3a but the A6M3 factory only auto upgrades to the A6M5. What the factory auto upgrades to is not necessarily the type aircraft every squadron will upgrade to. Some units skip upgrades. It gets even more complicated when talking army units.

With PDU off, I think that not all A6M2 units will have the A6M3a in their upgrade path. I believe ome squadrons can only upgrade to the A6M5. I could be wrong on that and I don't have a PDU off game going at the moment otherwise I would check.

We are probably talking semantics here as I think we are both on the same page just wording it different.

Chez



Drongo -> RE: Jap Factories (8/24/2006 9:13:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

So the reason the A6M3 may not come up as one of the upgrade choices for A6M2 equipped units on CVs when PDUs are off


It doesn't come up with PDU on either. The A6M3 is only available for land-based units.

My mistake. The statement should have read "when PDUs are on" not "off".

And if you are referring to stock scenario 15 with PDUs on, you are correct, the A6M3 is only available for (most) land based IJN fighter units as an upgrade choice. As I indicated previously, the reason for this is entirely due to the combination of aircraft and air group entries in scenario 15's database rather than any specific upgrade limitation of CV based units for the game in general.

quote:


The two paths are different. Its true that A6M2 factories will auto upgrade to the A6M3a but the A6M3 factory only auto upgrades to the A6M5. What the factory auto upgrades to is not necessarily the type aircraft every squadron will upgrade to. Some units skip upgrades. It gets even more complicated when talking army units.

Correct. What a factory auto-upgrades to is entirely dependent on what value it's currently produced aircraft type has in its database "upgrade" field. So unlike many air units, factories have only one (auto) upgrade choice per type of aircraft.

quote:


With PDU off, I think that not all A6M2 units will have the A6M3a in their upgrade path. I believe ome squadrons can only upgrade to the A6M5. I could be wrong on that and I don't have a PDU off game going at the moment otherwise I would check.

We are probably talking semantics here as I think we are both on the same page just wording it different.

Chez

If not the same page, certainly the same chapter.

In terms of the PDU being off, each air group will have only one upgrade choice and that one choice will be either the default upgrade type in the database for the aircraft type currently equipping the air group or else that of a specific upgrade "over-ride" the air group has in its database entry.

When PDUs are on, it becomes much more complicated but rather than try exploding my brain again, I'd suggest the easiest way to see how the game builds the upgrade list for an air group is to play around with a copy of (say) stock scenario 15. IIRC, all the CV based IJN fighter units will only have three upgrade options on turn 1, the A6M2, A6M3a and A6M5.

Start with a single database change to equip one of the IJN CV based fighter air groups with the A6M3 (the air group can even be on one of the CVs that won't arrive till late in the war). You should then see the A6M3 appear in the upgrade choices of the IJN CV based fighter units immediately on starting the modified game.

The point of all this is that there is no special upgrade limitation imposed on CV based units other than the fact that when the game routine builds its list of upgrade choices for an air group, one of the selection criteria is that only aircraft equipping "similar" air units are considered. So in the case of the upgrade choices for an A6M2 equipped IJN fighter unit on a CV, "similar" units would be those that are IJN, are equipped with fighters and are CV based (or carrier trained). Therefore, land based (non carrier trained) IJN fighter units would not be looked at in building the list. Since no IJN CV based fighter unit (on map or reinforcement) has the A6M3 in scenario 15, it will never appear as an upgrade choice for IJN CV based fighter units in scenario 15.

Cheers



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