MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (Full Version)

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Froonp -> MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (8/25/2006 6:09:31 PM)

Hello,

Here is what India & Burma are looking in MWiF.
It seems to me that it is pretty ok, it is accurate toward the WiF FE map.
Do you see something wrong ?
(This is a 35% size map, so texts are much unreadable, if you want close-ups on some areas, just ask)

Cheers !
Patrice

[image]local://upfiles/10447/C331A6C27C2F4DA59F4609D86C37C399.jpg[/image]



composer99 -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (8/25/2006 10:03:26 PM)

All I can say is I feel sorry for the CW player who has to defend India against a determined Japanese attack at this map scale. Although, come to think of it, it's also easier to cut Japanese armies that over-extend themselves out of supply, so that makes up for the better maneuverability.

If I recall, almost every clear hex in India on the WiF:FE map has a city in it. Now there's lots of good tank country.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (8/25/2006 10:27:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

All I can say is I feel sorry for the CW player who has to defend India against a determined Japanese attack at this map scale. Although, come to think of it, it's also easier to cut Japanese armies that over-extend themselves out of supply, so that makes up for the better maneuverability.

If I recall, almost every clear hex in India on the WiF:FE map has a city in it. Now there's lots of good tank country.

But most of it is laced with rivers.



Incy -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (8/26/2006 11:59:56 PM)

Is Bombay attackable from only 1 hex? Not so in WiFFE...

It's important, bacause Bombay will often see battle and does have a factory (a PART in Bombay is common)



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (8/27/2006 12:33:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Incy

Is Bombay attackable from only 1 hex? Not so in WiFFE...

It's important, bacause Bombay will often see battle and does have a factory (a PART in Bombay is common)

Yes. You have good eyesight! I agree this is a problem, but I do not have a ready solution.

At the European scale Bombay is clearly on a peninsula with one attached land hex (to the NE). The WIF FE scale lumped Bombay's peninsula into surrounding terrain and conneected it to 3 other land hexes. Big change. What to do?[&:]



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (8/27/2006 12:47:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:

ORIGINAL: Incy
Is Bombay attackable from only 1 hex? Not so in WiFFE...
It's important, bacause Bombay will often see battle and does have a factory (a PART in Bombay is common)

Yes. You have good eyesight! I agree this is a problem, but I do not have a ready solution.
At the European scale Bombay is clearly on a peninsula with one attached land hex (to the NE). The WIF FE scale lumped Bombay's peninsula into surrounding terrain and conneected it to 3 other land hexes. Big change. What to do?[&:]

While I do not agree that Bombay often sees battle (I tend to have a TERR here as the CW, so I'm not leaving the door open for a PART, and the Jap rarely comes that far), I agree that the Bombay depiction is not ideal. I would have lived with it, for the previous reason, but if you think that it is a problem, I think it is easy to solve.
The hexes E and SE of Bombay are curently All Sea hexsides.
We only need to make them land hexside, by drawing the peninsula less big (and so the sea arm less deep).
By the way, looking at large scaled maps of Inda, it seems to me that the size of te Peninsula was well exagerated, so reducing it might serve 2 goals, making the map more WiF FE like, and makinf it more real.

Just a last not to say that composer99 commented that India seemed easier to conquer, at least to attack, for Japan. Maybe having Bombay slightly more difficult to conquer would be good for game purposes ?

Also, as a real last note, please note that Calcutta now is attackable from 1 normal hexside, and 4 river hexsides, while it was attackable from 3 river hexsides before. We might consider that it is easier to attack, so maybe making Bombay a little more hard helps ?

So we have the choice :
- Removing both E & SE All sea hexsides to make bombay as in WiF FE, and closer to reality.
- Removing only E hexside to maket it more like in WiF FE, but slightly harder given that there are other areas in India that are easier.

I prefer the last one finally.
And you ? Or a third one ?



YohanTM2 -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (8/27/2006 2:19:56 AM)

I prefer the latter option as well



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (8/27/2006 8:30:47 PM)

quote:

So we have the choice :
- Removing both E & SE All sea hexsides to make bombay as in WiF FE, and closer to reality.
- Removing only E hexside to make it more like in WiF FE, but slightly harder given that there are other areas in India that are easier.

I prefer the last one finally.
And you ? Or a third one ?

I will implement the second solution on the Coastlines map.



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (8/27/2006 11:15:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

So we have the choice :
- Removing both E & SE All sea hexsides to make bombay as in WiF FE, and closer to reality.
- Removing only E hexside to make it more like in WiF FE, but slightly harder given that there are other areas in India that are easier.

I prefer the last one finally.
And you ? Or a third one ?

I will implement the second solution on the Coastlines map.

Looks like this now. Is this ok ?

[image]local://upfiles/10447/16318A1015044B228F7855316F85C175.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (8/27/2006 11:20:01 PM)

There is this lake that is bugging me.
In maps I found about India, and on Google Earth, this lake hexside seems placed about 2 hexes westwards from where it is now on the MWiF map. What to do ?
This is a pretty remote area, I could also leave it this way...

[image]local://upfiles/10447/E36E4367D73342D885FECC84E9B738CE.jpg[/image]



Jeff Gilbert -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (8/28/2006 5:13:20 AM)

Ummm ... where's the lake?
Do you mean the SE hexside 3 hexes east of Peshwar?



composer99 -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (8/28/2006 7:34:27 AM)

I like the Bombay revision.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

But most of it is laced with rivers.


That's true. A determined Japanese attack in 41-42 wouldn't find the cities too much of an obstacle, anyway, so the fact that under the same circumstances the rivers probably won't be much obstacle either makes no difference. All that matters, for the CW defence of India, is how much army the CW has in the country.

Edit: Oh, and also what degree of difficulty Japan has in taking Calcutta.



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (8/28/2006 1:20:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Gilbert

Ummm ... where's the lake?
Do you mean the SE hexside 3 hexes east of Peshwar?


Yes, this one.
Lakes, before being drawn, are represented by Light blue hexsides on the MWiF map.



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (8/28/2006 1:27:00 PM)

quote:

Edit: Oh, and also what degree of difficulty Japan has in taking Calcutta.

See by yourself on this picture

Here also what I wrote in post #6
quote:

Also, as a real last note, please note that Calcutta now is attackable from 1 normal hexside, and 4 river hexsides, while it was attackable from 3 river hexsides before. We might consider that it is easier to attack (...)


[image]local://upfiles/10447/FAC0A47DDC6B4D2485312752BCF75749.jpg[/image]



trees trees -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (8/28/2006 7:20:10 PM)

Would the various enclaves (Goa, etc.) rate minor ports? I've been fascinated by the Portugese empire lately.



Neilster -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (8/28/2006 7:26:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees

Would the various enclaves (Goa, etc.) rate minor ports? I've been fascinated by the Portugese empire lately.



Well who hasn't? [:D]

Cheers, Neilster



composer99 -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (8/29/2006 5:26:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees

Would the various enclaves (Goa, etc.) rate minor ports? [...]


It wouldn't make much of a difference to the game balance if they did, since there is a Portugese, a French, and (I don't know for certain) a Dutch enclave. Sure, it's a few more ports for the CW to defend in some circumstances, mostly from the European Axis from what I saw on Patrice's first posted map, but if the European Axis has the ability, in terms of logistics, troops, and no Royal Navy, to mount a serious campaign in India (or at least to split the effort with the Japanese), then the Axis have probably already won the game.



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (9/7/2006 12:36:29 PM)

About this lake in northwestern WWII India, I can't find it on the maps and on Google Earth (4 hexes north of Lahore and 3 hexes west of Peshawar) (See Post #10).

I only can find a small lake to the east of it (1-2 hexes east of Peshawar) and another south of it (1-2 hexes east of Rawalpindi. Both are about 20 km long, so they do not deserve 1 lake hexside, so I think I will simply delete it.

Opinions ?



OgrePA -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (9/7/2006 7:32:22 PM)

Hi all.  Been checking in for awhile and thought I would try and add some opinions as I have time.

There seems to be a lake near the indicated position in Pakistan. Not sure of any details regarding the lake.

http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=8000000.7049066&Y=4000000.84694275&width=700&height=400&gride=&gridn=&srec=0&coordsys=mercator&db=&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&localinfosel=&kw=&inmap=&table=&ovtype=&keepicon=&zm=1&scale=2000000



OgrePA -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (9/7/2006 7:51:35 PM)

Further research shows the lake to be a result of Tarbela Dam that was built in the 1960's.  Sorry should have done some additional checking before posting.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (9/7/2006 8:12:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OgrePA

Further research shows the lake to be a result of Tarbela Dam that was built in the 1960's.  Sorry should have done some additional checking before posting.


On the contrary, your information seems to clear up the mystery of why the lake was drawn on the CWIF map in the first place. Thanks.

Partial information often helps - and the more contributors the better.



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (9/7/2006 10:00:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OgrePA
Hi all.  Been checking in for awhile and thought I would try and add some opinions as I have time.
There seems to be a lake near the indicated position in Pakistan. Not sure of any details regarding the lake.
http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=8000000.7049066&Y=4000000.84694275&width=700&height=400&gride=&gridn=&srec=0&coordsys=mercator&db=&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&localinfosel=&kw=&inmap=&table=&ovtype=&keepicon=&zm=1&scale=2000000


quote:

Further research shows the lake to be a result of Tarbela Dam that was built in the 1960's. Sorry should have done some additional checking before posting.


This lake is the first one I also found, but it is not at the right place anyway.
Also, thanks for the research.



Subetai -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (9/18/2006 7:40:22 PM)

Not sure if this is the right thread, but what will the leg movement cost be for swamp, given that it was only on the Asia/Pacific maps in the cardboard version and their scale has changed for MWIF? Also with Jap leg units still get a movement bonus? [&:]



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (9/18/2006 8:04:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Subetai
Not sure if this is the right thread, but what will the leg movement cost be for swamp, given that it was only on the Asia/Pacific maps in the cardboard version and their scale has changed for MWIF? Also with Jap leg units still get a movement bonus? [&:]

Not sure it is the right thread neither, but I read all of them [;)].
The lev movement cost for swamp is the one of the European maps, that is 5 MP if I'm not too mistaken.
Jap leg units get a movement bonus in Jungle as in the Cardboard WiF FE.



composer99 -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (9/20/2006 12:40:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Subetai

Not sure if this is the right thread, but what will the leg movement cost be for swamp, given that it was only on the Asia/Pacific maps in the cardboard version and their scale has changed for MWIF? Also with Jap leg units still get a movement bonus? [&:]


Patrice answered part of your question already, but I might add here that it was Jungle that only appears on the Asia/Pacific map - although it does also appear in the American mini-map (or the Asia-scale America in Flames map) and the Africa map.



Subetai -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (9/20/2006 2:54:41 PM)

I didn't word my question very well, and I don't have any game material with me, so I'll try again:

the rules don't mention what movement costs would be for swamp on the european scale map, because there wasn't any (composer99 yes swamp does appear on other maps)(True?);

the MWIF map will use the scale from the European map, or at least something smaller than the Asia/Pacific map of the cardboard variety (True?);

if the leg movement cost for swamp on the Asia/Pacific scale map is 5 (as Patrice states), then wouldn't it be less for the MWIF map, given the change in scale?

This is of course if my assumptions are incorrect.



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (9/20/2006 3:39:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Subetai
I didn't word my question very well, and I don't have any game material with me, so I'll try again:

No problems [:D]

quote:

the rules don't mention what movement costs would be for swamp on the european scale map, because there wasn't any (composer99 yes swamp does appear on other maps)(True?);

Swamp on the European Scaled maps will be the same as it was on the European Scaled maps in WiF FE, that is 5 MP for leg units and 8 for motorized units. The Swamp for the Pacific maps at the Pacific Scale are 7 MP for leg units and 9 MP for motorized units.

quote:

the MWIF map will use the scale from the European map, or at least something smaller than the Asia/Pacific map of the cardboard variety (True?);

MWiF uses the scale of the European map.
More, the European part of the MWiF map is the same as the WiF FE paper map, verbatim.

quote:

if the leg movement cost for swamp on the Asia/Pacific scale map is 5 (as Patrice states), then wouldn't it be less for the MWIF map, given the change in scale?

It is 5 MP on the MWiF map, not on the Pacific maps at the Pacific scale. On the Pacific maps at he Pacific scale, it is 7 MP / 9 MP.



Subetai -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (9/20/2006 4:46:18 PM)

Thank you Patrice. I just realised why I was having problems with this question.  I mean of course "Jungle" rather than "Swamp", hence my comment about the Japanese bonus. Plenty of swamp on the European map!

The heat must be getting to me. [:(]



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (9/20/2006 5:33:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Subetai
Thank you Patrice. I just realised why I was having problems with this question.  I mean of course "Jungle" rather than "Swamp", hence my comment about the Japanese bonus. Plenty of swamp on the European map!
The heat must be getting to me. [:(]

OK. Jungle.
Jungle movement cost were not defined in WiF FE for Leg & motorized units, as there were no jungle hexes on the European maps.
Jungle movement cost for the Pacific scaled maps were 4 MP for leg units and 8 MP for motorized units.

Jungle movement cost for the European scaled MWiF map are double the forest movement cost, that is
- 2 MP for leg units and
- 4 MP for motorized units.



sajbalk -> RE: MWiF Map Review - India & Burma (9/20/2006 5:38:36 PM)

The change in scale, I take it, would result in no movement bonus for Japanese leg units in the jungle?

The loss of the movement bonus for MTN units in the Pacific scale mountain hexes I think will be obvious because there are no more Pacific scale hexes.

Having one scale will result in an easier game for newbies, especially over the dispute about 1/2 range for intercepting on the Pac. map.




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