RE: RHS 5.03 micro update and 5.10 date

RE: RHS 5.03 micro update and 5.10 date (Full Version)

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el cid again -> RE: RHS 5.03 micro update and 5.10 date (10/3/2006 7:53:57 AM)
I found bad sunk dates on 3 USN and 1 IJN carrier. You cannot copy a ship with a sunk date in the Matrix editor WITHOUT making this error - but I forgot that. This micro update has only two files - and the comment file with a version number: 1) Ship file - to fix this critical issue 2) Location file - to fold in eratta - and convert Indian Army to "division" brigades Tool analysis by others indicates this location file is very clean. I do however intend to do the new pwhex files and change the location file so we can have Mandalay right and the new entrance paths on the bottom map edge. I hope should also be folding in leaders and pilots - which I only need to briefly review. Otherwise it is just a matter of when we get the new aircraft maneuverability ratings? The Panama project is on temporary hold so this critical carrier fix could come out - with all reported eratta as well.

el cid again -> RE: RHS 5.04 micro update and 5.10 date (10/3/2006 11:57:07 AM)
We need an immediate release due to a ship art issue that will crash the game if an unsuspecting person looks at one of two RTN ships - or maybe if they get in a fight? We have a fix - and I have already done the class file - while Cobra has found and posted (or will post) the critical art. I hope for still more art - we could use two different images for these vessels - and maybe also one for the IJN battlecruisers - which pretend to be Yamato class art wise! I probably will also include the very first major updates to the leader and pilot files - which we hope will make the code more efficient. Our volunteer found something like 3000 errors - some of them amazing: numbers of officers were serving in enemy armed forces! Whereever we are when Cobra signs off - I will issue 5.04 with the location files to point at safe art. Something I failed to mention about 5.03 was that the Australian Army 1st Para Bn got its wings. Seems it was not airborne - now it is. This microupdate also will have all new device files - because alvrmartin has changed them so they tell you the year of the squads in a unit. I have decided to update the former Bombay entry hex by moving it from Melbourne to Tristan da Cunha - in the South Atlantic Ocean - and allow the Allies to approach it via either Cape Horne or Cape of Good Hope. This involves redoing pwhex, location, and ship files - and won't happen until wednesday or thursday. I expect the plane data by then - so maybe that will fold in with 5.10. If not - it will be 5.05. I am also researching British Empire divisions and brigades - because their weapons/squad counts are wrong. This has begun with the Indian Army and British Brigades formation already redefined - and it may also be in the next update for Australia, British Army and Commonwealth forces. Looks like I need to add some machine gun battalions as well. The biggest challenge is getting reinforcements right - and restoring some SLOC ships - to service this longer route. We plan to completely revise the bottom right map area - probably moving Panama downward so the distance to San Diego is right - and giving battlespace for that part of the Pacific Ocean. At that time we will try to create a Caribbean Map Entry Point - and possibly link it to the Cape Horne/Strait of Magellan route as well as to Panama. Colon will then revert to medium port status. This is also going to take a good bit of work - because we must get reinforcements reassigned from Panama City or Colon to the Caribbean Entry Hex - and we think probably there are errors needing research about that as well. When finished, that will likely be 5.20. I have decided to proceed at 5.04 level with my plan to get some longer term manual testing done. Technical examination is indicating we have vastly cleaned up most files.

el cid again -> RE: RHS 5.04 COMPREHENSIVE update and 5.10 date (10/4/2006 1:20:23 AM)
Uploading 5.04 This contains an art fix so RTN gunboats won't crash the program - IF you download new ship art from Cobra. It ALSO contains virtually all new files - not that they are vital changes - but they are vastly cleaned with the help of a whole team and tools. This includes leader and pilot files - cleaned for the first time I know of - with some enhansements I have added (there is a 'generic axis engineer' officer now for construction battalions for technical reasons). It contains some visual enhancements you probably won't notice - and some information enhancements (allied squads are year dated for example). The word from Mifune is "trouble at work, but soon" we will get the updated plane maneuverability data. I must work now too - but tomorrow will implement some pwhex enhancements - and finally do the human test standard opening turn. Cobra is doing the art for the alternate entry hex concept in its first pass form. Also a new art for the bigger Thai "gunboat" (is 4 eight inch a gunboat?).

witpqs -> RE: RHS 5.04 COMPREHENSIVE update and 5.10 date (10/4/2006 2:06:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: el cid again (is 4 eight inch a gunboat?). Maybe GUNboat! [:D]

el cid again -> RE: RHS 5.04 COMPREHENSIVE update and 5.10 date (10/4/2006 6:49:43 AM)
For the record - we are not going to accept a report that the supply sinks are too powerful. We suspended testing and implemented significant changes which affect MANY units - including ALL support units - and these changes must be understood to provide context for any additional changes. Also - we need to "calibrate" (i.e. "measure") the scale of any problem - to have a sense of what might be required to deal with it. We are going to initiate a series of human, human vs AI and AI vs AI tests to come to terms with many things - including the impact of revised aircraft ranges (I have saved a copy of the old ranges - as a precaution). IF we find problems - of any sort - we will address them within the limits of what is possible - and within the context that we are trying to make the designed system WORK - not gut it.

turkey1 -> RE: RHS 5.04 COMPREHENSIVE update and 5.10 date (10/4/2006 10:32:39 AM)
el cid 1) just looked at 5.03 and I note that the Japanese engine requirement for the Ishikawajima plane engine is 291,134 per month (all scenarios) I cant see where these engines are being requested ie the japanese are producing anywhere close to that number of planes. 2) I also cannot figure out why you have reduced the durability of all planes so much. Wont this end up with a much higher casulaty rate in flak and aircombat 3) I also note the manoeuverability has been reduced across the board compared to vanilla witp . Interesting that late war aircriaft are getting higher numbers than early war aircraft. This seems incorrect as generally early war planes such as the Zero were more manouverable than later war craft which began to rely on higher speed eg the ME262a could not turn quickly but it was fast. Your stats have the P47 "JUG" turning quicker than early war zeros. !!!! The only thing a P47 could do was dive quickly and was otherwise noted as handling like a truck. I also note you have P40B's with the same manoeuvre ratings as the A6M2. Which seems to be incorrect. Sorry to seem to be having a go at your work but the air model you have adopted is a totally different approach to all the other mods and I was wondering why you have chosen these numbers. Cobra - just downloaded the updated version of your map - Looks fantastic.

el cid again -> RE: RHS 5.04 micro update and 5.10 date (10/4/2006 1:09:42 PM)
5.05 will feature new art for the large (4 eight inch gun) Thai "gunboat" Sry Aythuia new art for the RHS maps including the new Allied access channel at the bottom edge new pwhex files implementing the new maps - and permitting closure of the Panama canal and I hope new art showing the river correctly at Mandalay I have also adopted two more tricks to hurt the strength of supply sinks: we will have them plan for the wrong place (meaning they are not planning for the place they are at) - and we have learned that a morale and experience of 1 is a LOT LESS than zero! [Turns out zero = "use default values" which are always multiples of 10 - while ANY value other than zero means "use this value instead of default" - if only they would document this stuff!] As always - any eratta will fold in I am going to sleep a while - and examine the ongoing 5.04 AI vs AI test - then do this - then issue the opening turn for human testing.

el cid again -> RE: RHS 5.04 COMPREHENSIVE update and 5.10 date (10/4/2006 1:23:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: turkey1 el cid 1) just looked at 5.03 and I note that the Japanese engine requirement for the Ishikawajima plane engine is 291,134 per month (all scenarios) REPLY: You have a problem. This is not the case in any game with source files in any scenario. Ishikawajima does end up needing over 1400 engines a month - prohibitively many - by 1943 - but it slowly climbs to that level. I cant see where these engines are being requested ie the japanese are producing anywhere close to that number of planes. 2) I also cannot figure out why you have reduced the durability of all planes so much. Wont this end up with a much higher casulaty rate in flak and aircombat REPLY: Two unrelated reasons - one of them now moot: there used to be a "knee" in the air combat functions above 40 - and we wanted to below that - so we had "honest" data processing - this I am told has gone away; the main reason - which remains - was that it would indeed result in higher casualty rates in ALL situations - including the one we strongly wanted more of: operational attrition. We also believed FLAK was far too ineffective - and not entirely because some guns had no ceilings, some had no detection gear, and so on - even properly set guns were not doing the job they should do. We then set the durability to the lowest possible level that distinguished between planes, measured the results with a statistical number of runs, and concluded we should apply a constant (K) factor of 2 to these values. This was done - and the new values have produced no complaints - but many very nice outcomes. I intend to run a more lengthy analysis after we get the new maneuverability values in place - to see if K is indeed right - but failing a measurable problem - it tentatively appears they are pretty good. 3) I also note the manoeuverability has been reduced across the board compared to vanilla witp . Interesting that late war aircriaft are getting higher numbers than early war aircraft. This seems incorrect as generally early war planes such as the Zero were more manouverable than later war craft which began to rely on higher speed eg the ME262a could not turn quickly but it was fast. Your stats have the P47 "JUG" turning quicker than early war zeros. !!!! The only thing a P47 could do was dive quickly and was otherwise noted as handling like a truck. I also note you have P40B's with the same manoeuvre ratings as the A6M2. Which seems to be incorrect. Sorry to seem to be having a go at your work but the air model you have adopted is a totally different approach to all the other mods and I was wondering why you have chosen these numbers. REPLY: Well - the approach was first of all systematic. The existing approaches were - whatever else can be said - inconsistently applied. We tried to understand the system, devise a similar one, and apply it consistently. At the same time, we WANTED it to be different. We wanted a lot less lethality in air combat - and we got it too. Above all we wanted what you seem to want - RELATIVE values to be right. Now that is hard to do. It is particularly hard to do with a too simple model like WITP uses. And ALL simulations must involve compromises - so we will never achieve perfection or escape a problem case that does not fit even if we made ideal compromises. Nevertheless - the maneuverability values were not entirely happy ones. Nor can they be for structural reasons: planes do NOT have the same vertical and horizontal maneuverability; planes do NOT have the same of either at all altitudes either - and we have only ONE value - so a plane good at this at one altitude may be good at that at a different altitude - and the two values must be averaged in a single field! Even so, we set out on a quest for a happier system, three times, failed twice - and finally succeeded. The only problem is - applying it to 249 types of planes takes a lot of research and calculation - and it has not yet quite completed. The ETA was today - and I hear it is almost there. Basically you should ignore the present values and look at the new ones. For samples go to the thread on the subject. To have pleased even the critics in this matter took a lot of work - and some technical help. Within the limits stated above - only one value cannot do this right - we may have done very well indeed. The release level for this new data is 5.10 Cobra - just downloaded the updated version of your map - Looks fantastic.

m10bob -> RE: RHS 5.04 COMPREHENSIVE update and 5.10 date (10/4/2006 2:37:15 PM)
"a new art for the bigger Thai "gunboat" (is 4 eight inch a gunboat?). " Would this not be the same as what most navies called a "monitor"? "I also note you have P40B's with the same manoeuvre ratings as the A6M2. Which seems to be incorrect." While the P40 was not as maneuverable, NOTHING had a faster roll rate than a P 40 for that era..

Nemo121 -> RE: RHS 5.04 COMPREHENSIVE update and 5.10 date (10/4/2006 8:31:00 PM)
I've played a month of RHS EOS in PBEM and I've got to state that the air losses to both sides "felt" a lot more realistic ( in terms of what I've read in books and came to believe about how various planes would stack up) than in stock. Even with 50+ planes per side we got leakers and hits. As to the data being very different. It is, from what I've seen, the result of application of formulae systematically and so it is, at the very least, consistently incorrect so that the relative ratings of most planes should be relatively correct. Not perfect no but a lot better than stock from what I've seen.

el cid again -> RE: RHS 5.04 COMPREHENSIVE update and 5.10 date (10/5/2006 12:51:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: m10bob "a new art for the bigger Thai "gunboat" (is 4 eight inch a gunboat?). " Would this not be the same as what most navies called a "monitor"? This class of vessel is unique: it is something like US or Dutch six inch seagoing gunboats - designed to cross oceans but do duty on rivers or among islands - only writ large. Instead of two six inch guns - and RTN has two such gunboats in the Ratanakosindra class (one of them just about the longest serving warship since the invention of steam) - this class (there were two of them) had four eight inch in two twins! [One vessel was lost being towed to Japan for repairs after getting shot up in a battle with a French CL and some other colonial vessels]. These ships were originally built in Japan, used Japanese guns, and have no counterparts anywhere else. But they are not monitors because they have proper hulls and don't have the classic flat deck/single main turret configuration.

drw61 -> RE: RHS 5.04 COMPREHENSIVE update and 5.10 date (10/5/2006 7:47:28 PM)
Here are some data errors: The US 37 Inf (Slot 2882) has 513 M8 scout cars The following ship recon airgroups upgrade to the wrong type Airgroup slot number: Upgrade to aircraft slot: 2065, 2066, 2095 � 2108, 2110, 2112 to 2116 164 (PV-1NF) 2109, 2117 140 (P-40) 2043 to 2064 131 (PB4Y) The airgroup in slot 2117 is assigned to ship slot 3337 �Lost CL Respond Area�

el cid again -> RE: RHS 5.04 COMPREHENSIVE update and 5.10 date (10/6/2006 12:32:14 AM)
Got em all - plus more I found as a result of seeing them - plus more from others and on my own. These will all fold in to 5.05 - which is about to upload. The main thing is I have changed the supply sinks to have different planning and 1 for experience/morale. That is a vast amount of changes - regretfully. So I have not addressed map changes except for adding two (now three) cities in Burma. I need to redo the OB and some other locations when I do the map entry changes. That is a bit time consuming - I must do it six times - and I must review thousands of lines. Yes - this is 5.05 level - no plane data yet so not 5.10. You need to download new ships (B-65 and thai gunboats) - or don't look at their pictures. The pointers are set for new art from Cobra.

el cid again -> RE: RHS 5.05 COMPREHENSIVE update and 5.10 date (10/6/2006 1:43:38 AM)
5.05 uploaded. No new updates before about Monday - I actually must work! This is suitable for human testing and I will be doing a set of turns. The plane data has not come - 249 types is a LOT - and so I estimate it - and the new entry route stuff - will appear next monday or tuesday in 5.10. This update is mainly for eratta and supply sinks (further weakened). Some art added. Three towns added in Burma. I will revise pwhex in the interim to allow blocking Panama and to fix Mandalay - although the art may or may not show the new rivers the hex sides will.

el cid again -> RE: 5.10 AT LAST [Data in: will release tomorrow] (10/6/2006 11:36:14 AM)
We have most of the Allied planes - the rest being duplicates or exotics - and I will "fill in the blanks" - so we can issue 5.10. I will do so at once - WITHOUT dealing with the new map entrence scheme - so our manual tests can include the new aircraft maneuverability data as well as the new aircraft ranges - and the changes to support units. I believe we have a very clean set of files - but a set of extensive re-reviews is underway to find more. By Tuesday we will surely have the cleanest set of WITP files of all time. Most of the remaining errors are of the form "the CO arrives later than the unit" - in which case AI assigns a different CO. These should be cleaned up - along with anything else that can be found. We are seeing significant improvement in turn processing time as the files clean up. We are seeing significantly better outcomes for battles - as we get things consistently rated. [They may be wrong in some sense - but they are relatively right - and that means we can now measure what we have and adjust until it is right - if it isn't]. I have decided to release the last pwhex file for RHS in its original map form with a name implying the present map - and the present pwhex file - are CHS options. While RHS will move on to a new map format incompatable with CHS, we will continue to make available the Cobra CHS Compatable Art map set - and the CHS/Original RHS pwhex file - in case anyone wants to use them. Further, it may be we will keep 5.1x versions of RHS available as well. The new map art and entry system will be named 6.xy - to avoid confusion. RHS will continue to develop - but there is no need to kill the CHS compatable map or pwhex associated with it. CHS has always supported RHS, and many people are part of both teams. There is no reason not to preserve the option to use Cobra's brilliant satellite imagery - and the technical features I have done with pwhes - for anyone who wants to use them with CHS - or for that matter with RHS 5.1x - assuming this turns out to be the difinitive release I think it may be. We will look for things to adjust and correct - and we will fix outright errors when reported - as always. But this is a watershed point: we will leave the CHS map system behind next week. Maybe we should also make this version - which seems to be very promising - as well? And there is no reason whatever not to continue to provide the CHS compatable stuff available.

Nemo121 -> RE: 5.10 AT LAST [Data in: will release tomorrow] (10/6/2006 10:38:08 PM)
Note: There are still some problems outstanding with respect to ships radars, some IJA army units and japanese air units with the wrong targets etc ( mainly an issue in AI games)... These won't be fixed until after the weekend so still probably not the release to start a full game with. Sid, Does 5.10 contain ALL the new plane data and does it contain the supply sink fix of setting morale and experience to 1 and planning to a different base?

el cid again -> RE: 5.10 Problems (10/6/2006 11:35:09 PM)
5.10 will not release today. 5.05 will be used for human testing. NO RHS releases are planned before Tuesday - when we will probably release 6.00 - with revised map. IF we solve the plane data issue - 5.10 will release as 5.05 with a changed aircraft file. At the moment I do not own ANY file except the aircraft file. [We have a big team now and we are getting some things done in other places - other countries in fact - in the hope of very clean files for 6.00] I believe 5.05 is very good and suitable for medium term use - and we need to know what happens over time with all the things changed in it. So I am going to issue some turns for human vs human games. Go to the thread on aircraft maneuverability to contribute to or hear about the 5.10 issues.

el cid again -> RE: 5.10 AT LAST [Data in: will release tomorrow] (10/6/2006 11:38:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nemo121 Note: There are still some problems outstanding with respect to ships radars, some IJA army units and japanese air units with the wrong targets etc ( mainly an issue in AI games)... These won't be fixed until after the weekend so still probably not the release to start a full game with. Sid, Does 5.10 contain ALL the new plane data and does it contain the supply sink fix of setting morale and experience to 1 and planning to a different base? Current release is 5.05. It contains everything I know about except: no maneuverability data changes for planes certain issues with leader dates (pilot dates are all fixed!!! didn't even know that until just now) or multiple leaders (50 ships with one captain anyone?) the new entry path matter eratta certain changes to pwhex are needed - and Cobra sent me some new list for this - but that is not related to version number - it is a different deal Not sure we will have a 5.10 or not? 6.00 is the version with the new entry path/changes to what enters where/additional allied ships presently on SLOC duty off map. For 5.10 - see the maneuverability thread. As far as I know radar is working. However, I have some independent reviewers looking for these issues - and on Sunday I will process in any reports by you if they have not already been addressed. I don't own the files just now - can't fix em. In general, I have never reviewed targets. They are as they were. If you think they matter - make a list - get it to me by 2400 Saturday Alaska Time.

Nemo121 -> RE: 5.10 AT LAST [Data in: will release tomorrow] (10/7/2006 12:36:48 AM)
Yeah some of the late-war Japanese squadrons arrive and are targetted at Japanese units/bases. I looked in my AI vs AI 1945 game and they seem to just enter a limbo state in game, never redeploying so I think it matters for the AI. I am including those 7 or 8 errors in the list I'll send you by 2400 Saturday Alaska Time ( 0900 GMT).

Bliztk -> RE: 5.10 AT LAST [Data in: will release tomorrow] (10/7/2006 12:45:26 AM)
Check your email Sid, please. I want to start ASAP with the house cleaning

el cid again -> RE: 5.10 AT LAST [Data in: will release tomorrow] (10/7/2006 1:04:17 AM)
I don't see it yet. Will be out of the loop for 9 hours.

el cid again -> RE: RHS pwhex 5 set released and 5.10 & 6.00 plan (10/9/2006 3:53:39 AM)
pwhex set 5 is released and in the upload process for the first time this includes a regular pwhex and a panama pwhex file the major change is to river systems in Burma and NE India - to make them more correct and match some new art by Cobra minor changes of great potential significance are connecting the Soviet Rail system to Korea and Manchukuo at two points - where they were and still are connected. Much work has been done in different places on identifying eratta in the 5.05 release - and I hope to incorporate most or all of this in 5.10 - set for Tuesday release. This is supposed to include the revised plane data - but I don't have the Japanese numbers - Mifune seems to be down. I may have to do them myself. Cobra has released art for the revised entry path proposal - but I have NOT done the pwhex file for it NOR the changed location and ship files - which will be affected by that change. [Reinforcements change; SLOC ships partly return to player control as well]. I am not working on either right now - and will not until we have released 5.10 and started human testing based on it. This will be a while. It will be called 6.x AFTER that we plan to do a more radical revision of the Panama area - opening up more battle space and creating a Caribbean Entry Hex - probably linked to the South Atlantic Entry Hex and maybe to US East Coast. That would be version 7.x AFTER that we may tackle Madagascar - a dream of Cobra's so strong he long ago did the art!

el cid again -> RE: RHS 5.10 to release and future plans (10/10/2006 12:25:28 AM)
My above post remains valid except I have not got the Japanese plane data - I have worked in a number of corrections of several kinds - and 5.10 should release as planned Tuesday. At that point I am going to "surrender" the files for still more data washing - initiate human tests - and work on the unrelated pwhex file versions six. When I get the files back - we will release 6.00 - which is just 5.10 with any eratta fixed and the new entry scheme, and related impacts on orders of battle/entry. Unless I get the new entry pwhex file done sooner.

CobraAus -> RE: RHS 5.10 to release and future plans (10/10/2006 8:50:47 AM)
from WITP patch 1.8.0.2 change notes very helpfull -Item 42 - Allow limited refueling from Soviet Bases once Soviets are active. Fueling is not allowed from Soviet Bases until soviets are active. Found a few places where the "until soviets are active" portion of the check was not implemented. Corrected all checks to include soviet activation. Also limited refueling once soviets are active to Ships in Soviet Task Forces unless base has been captured by the Japanese, in which case only Japanese ships may refuel there. Cobra Aus

el cid again -> RE: RHS 5.10 to release and future plans (10/10/2006 10:08:22 AM)
This change should impact ONLY RHS RPO and RHS CVO scenarios - where the Russians are not active and bases are defined in the normal way. In the Russian Active Scenarios Russian bases and ships are technically defined as French - so they will refuel ALL Allied ships, unless captured. I see no reason to change that. An ally is an ally. Further - vast amounts of shipping refueled in Soviet ports during the war. I am trying to figure out WHY we cannot send lend lease to Vladivostok - not how to make the ships carry it not refuel!

witpqs -> RE: RHS 5.10 to release and future plans (10/10/2006 10:09:19 AM)
Sid, The item below might be relevant for the very large USN AO's in RHS. As I recall you had to reduce their capacity becuase the code converted it to a negative number. Now (with 1.8.0.2) they can be switched back. From the 1.8.0.2 release notes posted by Don Bowen: quote: Item 37 - Fix overflow in fuel calculation Ship classes with very large fuel amounts can lead to a numeric overflow in the refueling routine. This generates a very large negative number and actually adds fuel to the refueling base instead of subtracting it. Increased size of local variables to maximum unsigned integer to reduce chances of overflow. Also bulletproof with a check to ensure the result is not negative nor greater than class fuel.

el cid again -> RE: RHS 5.10 to release and future plans (10/10/2006 10:20:40 AM)
It affects ships on both sides - and it is good to hear. I wonder if it is fixed for AKs? The largest AK in the world (probably) was Brizialian Yamatama Maru - the size of Queen Mary. I have her running at about 1/3 her capacity!

witpqs -> RE: RHS 5.10 to release and future plans (10/10/2006 10:26:17 AM)
It's specifically a fuel fix - are you taking about 1/3 of her fuel capacity or cargo capacity? At any rate a query to Joe should get clarification for you.

TulliusDetritus -> RE: RHS 5.10 to release and future plans (10/10/2006 10:10:48 PM)
El Cid Again or Cobra Aus, when will the new maps be available? Weeks, months? I mean the next 2 steps: 1) "a more radical revision of the Panama area" and 2) the one with Madagascar An estimate (even if it is not very accurate) will be highly appreciated [8D]

el cid again -> RE: RHS 5.10 to release and future plans (10/10/2006 11:48:58 PM)
The maps for the new entry path are done and even available on the RHS site. Only the pwhex files and new location/ship files (changing reinforcements) to match are required: ETA Friday. The radical revision for Panama ALSO has art done - but probably it needs revision. It ALSO needs a pwhex file. ETA 7 to 10 days. The Madagascar project is more complicated - it may not work at all. If it does - it will be about a month.

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