Bull Run Scenario (Full Version)

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Gil R. -> Bull Run Scenario (9/13/2006 3:58:13 AM)

As I've written elsewhere, we've recently determined that we have time to add a Bull Run scenario. Also, as I've written elsewhere, one of the features of the game will be "Legendary Units," which are infantry, cavalry or artillery units named for famous brigades, regiments or companies. And, again, as I've written elsewhere, it is just a matter of weeks before we "go gold." These three facts suggest to me that there should be Legendary Units that are hard-coded so that they always appear in the Bull Run scenario, but the fact that I'm busy with so many other mini-projects that have looming deadlines suggests to me that instead of spending a lot of time figuring out which these units should be I should throw the question out there for your collective consideration.

So, which "Legendary Units" do you think should always appear in the Bull Run scenario? We can't have too many -- perhaps 5-10 on each side.



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/13/2006 4:28:38 AM)

How about Stuarts Black Horse Calvary? Is this the kind of stuff you want?



Gil R. -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/13/2006 4:38:00 AM)

Yes. They're not in the database yet, since they were a company and I began with famous brigades and regiments, but in future patches we plan to add more Legendary Units, so I would have added them then. But you're right -- now that we have a Bull Run scenario it makes sense to add them.



Gil R. -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/13/2006 4:46:08 AM)

I guess I should add that, ideally, I'd have not just units that performed famously at Bull Run, but also those that already existed and later became famous. Most of the Legendary Units I have in the database came into existence later that year or in the following years.



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/13/2006 4:47:33 AM)

I think it important to release the game and to patch later if needed. You already have a good handle on things and anything extra would be just that. I do appreciate the desire to implement new things though. Keep up the good work and count on a couple copies for me.....oh btw...that is supposed to be cavalry and not calvary. I always spell that wrong.



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/13/2006 5:32:28 AM)

Some Arty
CSA
(Virginia)
Rockbridge Artillery
Wise Artillery
Staunton Artillery
Culpeper Artillery
Stanard’s Battery
Alexandria Light Artillery
Lynchburg Artillery
Purcell Artillery

(Louisiana)
Washington Artillery

FEDS
Battery E, 2d U.S. Artillery
Battery E, 3d U.S. Artillery
Battery G, 1st U.S. Artillery
Battery M, 2d U.S. Artillery
Battery D, 5th U.S. Artillery
Battery A, 1st Rhode Island Light Artillery
Battery I, 1st U.S. Artillery
Battery D, 2d U.S. Artillery
Bookwood’s New York battery(later redesignated 2d New York Independent Battery)
Battery G, 2d U.S. Artillery




Gil R. -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/13/2006 5:49:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

Some Arty
CSA
(Virginia)
Rockbridge Artillery
Wise Artillery
Staunton Artillery
Culpeper Artillery
Stanard’s Battery
Alexandria Light Artillery
Lynchburg Artillery
Purcell Artillery

(Louisiana)
Washington Artillery

FEDS
Battery E, 2d U.S. Artillery
Battery E, 3d U.S. Artillery
Battery G, 1st U.S. Artillery
Battery M, 2d U.S. Artillery
Battery D, 5th U.S. Artillery
Battery A, 1st Rhode Island Light Artillery
Battery I, 1st U.S. Artillery
Battery D, 2d U.S. Artillery
Bookwood’s New York battery(later redesignated 2d New York Independent Battery)
Battery G, 2d U.S. Artillery




Thanks. That's a good start, but we're only using units with normal-sounding names (not "Battery D"). The only exception is the 54th Massachusetts, which is too famous to leave out.



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/13/2006 5:59:41 AM)

yeah...that list is a little stiff. I see what you want now and I'll see what I can come up with, just not tonight. Full workload tomorrow. I know there are some very educated persons on this board that should be along shortly to help out, those more in-the-know than me. Thanks for the clarification.

Mo Reb



archer1863 -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/13/2006 7:52:49 PM)

CSA
Wheat's Louisana Tigers

Hampton's Legion (this was an interesting mix early war..it had it all corurtesy of Wade Hampton - Infantry, Cav, and Arty - but at this level no need to break it out).

Irish Regiment  (I believe they were from Alabama), not to be confused with the USA's Irish Brigade

USA

Iron Brigade  - Note these boys didn't receive this moniker until 2nd Manassas
New York Fire Zouaves


Let me break out some of my old Great Battle's of the ACW by Richard Berg. He had some great regimental/brigade level OOB's that could flesh out the list. Especially his version of First Bull Run...truly a monster boardgame!



Capt Cliff -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/13/2006 9:22:53 PM)

Did I miss something or was Stonewalls Brigade left out!! Include it!



archer1863 -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/14/2006 12:33:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

Did I miss something or was Stonewalls Brigade left out!! Include it!



If this is just for 1st Manassas, then they hadn't yet achieved the fame that they richly earned that day, and should just be represented as Jackson's brigade.

If this is a master list, then by all means we can't leave them out it would be an injustice to overlook their contributions, just as leaving out the Orphan brigade out in the Western Theater.



Gil R. -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/14/2006 12:43:21 AM)

My request is a bit of an illogical one: I want to have units that became famous at First Bull Run/Manassas appearing in a scenario that starts just before that battle has been fought. The battle itself is not in the game, since we don't have historical battles, but the armies that went on to fight it are, and those armies had the units that in real life became famous at that battle. So, I want to start the July 1861 scenario with Legendary Units that became famous for a battle that has happened yet and isn't in the game. Make sense?

Some units that fought there were already famous before the battle began (the Cameron Highlanders, for example), so I'd definitely want those in addition to the ones that became famous at the battle itself.



archer1863 -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/14/2006 12:53:44 AM)

Yep. I understand. From a gaming perspective for the casual gamer, who isn't as knowledgable about the individual units, but recognizes the names of the famous units, I can see where just starting off with them makes sense.


On that note, A fun aspect of Robert E. Lee Confederate General was that we could name brigades. Will we have that ability after new units are formed?



Gil R. -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/14/2006 12:57:03 AM)

Yes, one can rename individual brigades, corps and armies. Ships too, if I'm not mistaken. Thus when I put together a bunch of divisions that were fighting out west and formed them into an army I was able to replace the generic name given by the game (2nd Army, I think it was) and name it "Army of Tennessee."

We also have a number of authentic flags that can be added, instead of using the same generic flag for the USA and CSA.



archer1863 -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/14/2006 2:50:21 AM)

Outstanding!



archer1863 -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/14/2006 4:29:26 AM)

Confederate States of America  "Legendary Brigades"

Army of Northern Virginia - Eastern Theater
 





Laurel Brigade - the 7th, 11th and 12th Va Cavalry regiments and the 35th Va Cavalry battalion
 
Stonewall Brigade - consisted of the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 27th, and 33rd Va Infantry Regiments

Texas Brigade - the 1st, 4th, and 5th Texas Infantry with the 18th GA Infantry regiment (nicknamed 3rd Texas), later the 3rd Arkansas, replaced the 18th. 







United States of America  "Legendary Brigades"

Army of the Potomac - Eastern Theater


Excelsior Brigade - 70th, 71st, 72nd, 73rd, and 74th NY Volunteers, joined  in Dec '62 by the 120th NY and Mar '64 by the 11th MA, and 84th PA

Irish Brigade  - 63rd, 69th, and 88th NY Infantry regiments joined in spring of '62 by the 29th NY, replaced by the 28th MA in Oct '62

Iron Brigade - 2nd, 6th, and 7th Wisconsin, 19th Indiana joined by the 24th Michigan in late '62 
personal note - I love to hate these guys. Any game where I've faced this brigade, they have been a thorn in my side since I started gaming in the mid '80s. Among the best troops in the AOP, with a high elan'
 
New Jersey Brigade - 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th NJ, joined by the 10th NJ in Oct '61, the 15th NJ in Aug '62, and the 40th NJ in Feb '65
 
Philadelphia Brigade - 69th, 71st, 72nd, and 106th PA Infantry regiments  (originally known as the California brigade until the CO was killed at Ball's Bluff - California brigade designation   1st CA = 71st PA, 2nd CA =72nd PA, 3rd CA 69th Pa and 5th CA = 106th PA) Named Philadelphia as that was where the brigade was formed.

Vermont Brigade - 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th VT Regiments and  in May '64 the !st VT Heavy Arty Regiment joined



Confederate States of America - Western Theater

Army of the Tennessee

Orphan Brigade  - 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th KY regiments, and Byrne's Battery








United States of America - Western Theater

Army of the Tennesse

Lightning Brigade - 17th, 72nd, 75th Indiana, 98th IL, and 18th Indiana Light Artillery Battery -- mounted Infantry



more to come <yawn> sleepy time



bschulte1978 -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/14/2006 4:59:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

Some Arty
CSA
(Virginia)
Rockbridge Artillery
Wise Artillery
Staunton Artillery
Culpeper Artillery
Stanard’s Battery
Alexandria Light Artillery
Lynchburg Artillery
Purcell Artillery

(Louisiana)
Washington Artillery

FEDS
Battery E, 2d U.S. Artillery
Battery E, 3d U.S. Artillery
Battery G, 1st U.S. Artillery
Battery M, 2d U.S. Artillery
Battery D, 5th U.S. Artillery
Battery A, 1st Rhode Island Light Artillery
Battery I, 1st U.S. Artillery
Battery D, 2d U.S. Artillery
Bookwood’s New York battery(later redesignated 2d New York Independent Battery)
Battery G, 2d U.S. Artillery




Thanks. That's a good start, but we're only using units with normal-sounding names (not "Battery D"). The only exception is the 54th Massachusetts, which is too famous to leave out.


Gil,

I'm not sure I understand this. Units with names like "Battery D" account for almost every single Union artillery battery in the entire war! Are you saying you'll have no Union artillery "legendary" units in the game? That's odd considering the superiority of the Union artillery over their Confederate counterparts. Of course these units had informal names as well, such as Dilger's Battery in place of Battery I, 1st Ohio Light Artillery, for example. An infantry example would be the 5th New York, aka Duryea's Zouaves.



Gil R. -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/14/2006 5:39:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bschulte

I'm not sure I understand this. Units with names like "Battery D" account for almost every single Union artillery battery in the entire war! Are you saying you'll have no Union artillery "legendary" units in the game? That's odd considering the superiority of the Union artillery over their Confederate counterparts. Of course these units had informal names as well, such as Dilger's Battery in place of Battery I, 1st Ohio Light Artillery, for example. An infantry example would be the 5th New York, aka Duryea's Zouaves.


You're right about how common generic names like "Battery D" were, but such names aren't very exciting, so we're leaving out those units unless they were REALLY famous. There are more than enough units that had informal names (like your example of Dilger's Battery). Right now, the Union starts with about 50 Legendary Units, most of which are infantry and cavalry, but we do have three artillery units, and plan to add more in the future. So there will indeed be special artillery units, for both sides.



tevans6220 -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/15/2006 9:34:47 AM)

I have a question concerning brigades. Is there a way to just play with generic brigades and let their fame and attributes be determined throughout the course of the war? Hindsight is 20-20 and everyone knows that the Stonewall Brigade or the Iron Brigade are good units. Starting the war from the beginning players should have no more knowledge than Davis or Lincoln did. How can you have a Bull Run scenario with famous units when all troops on both sides were untried in battle? I would much rather have generic units that gain their fame and attributes on the battlefield if it's possible. That way my Stonewall Brigade might actually be from Tennessee if I sent Jackson there instead of keeping him in Virginia.



andysomers -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/15/2006 10:57:10 PM)

That's a neat point. It applies to generals as well. Both should have more or less unknown attributes until they are tested in battle.

No time now, but I will elaborate on this some more later. no big deal if it's too late for the release - too much trouble etc. but I like the thought!

AS



Gil R. -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/15/2006 11:35:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

I have a question concerning brigades. Is there a way to just play with generic brigades and let their fame and attributes be determined throughout the course of the war? Hindsight is 20-20 and everyone knows that the Stonewall Brigade or the Iron Brigade are good units. Starting the war from the beginning players should have no more knowledge than Davis or Lincoln did. How can you have a Bull Run scenario with famous units when all troops on both sides were untried in battle? I would much rather have generic units that gain their fame and attributes on the battlefield if it's possible. That way my Stonewall Brigade might actually be from Tennessee if I sent Jackson there instead of keeping him in Virginia.


tevans6220,
I definitely see your point. I have a two-part response. One is that one shouldn't necessarily think of the Stonewall Brigade as the Stonewall Brigade, but rather as an infantry unit that is way above average when it enters the game. This way, a typical army when the game begins will have units running the range from awful to excellent. It is possible for ordinary units to improve over time, but there is nothing inherently wrong with having some units start off excellent. The other part of my response is that we had already been considering finding a way to let players who don't want them eliminate the Legendary Units. The easiest way is to provide a mod that simply has a blank spreadsheet, though we might also make this a game option. Since we're about to finish all programming (other than bug-fixing and tweaking settings) in the next few days I can't guarantee that it will be an option, but once the game is out we'll be very interested to see what the response is to this issue.



tevans6220 -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/16/2006 2:53:11 PM)

Sounds good. Either way it's not a dealbreaker for me. I'm going to buy this game. I just thought it would be little more realistic with untried units and possibly even untried leaders that would have to prove themselves in battle. If nothing else it would add a tremendous amount of replayability to the game. I like your idea of a mod or option to turn off Legendary Units. Not sure how leaders could be worked though. It wouldn't feel the same for me if Lee turned out to be a dud while Pemberton turned into the South's version of Darth Vader. I'm sure it will all be worked out in good time. The most important thing is to get this thing released so that we can play it.



Gil R. -> RE: Bull Run Scenario (9/16/2006 7:35:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

Sounds good. Either way it's not a dealbreaker for me. I'm going to buy this game. I just thought it would be little more realistic with untried units and possibly even untried leaders that would have to prove themselves in battle. If nothing else it would add a tremendous amount of replayability to the game. I like your idea of a mod or option to turn off Legendary Units. Not sure how leaders could be worked though. It wouldn't feel the same for me if Lee turned out to be a dud while Pemberton turned into the South's version of Darth Vader. I'm sure it will all be worked out in good time. The most important thing is to get this thing released so that we can play it.


Well, we also have generals with historical ratings (e.g., Lee is a "Superb" leader or McClellan has "Terrible" initiative) or with random ones, and for the latter option you can have a related option of "hidden stats" that tells you some of their ratings but not all, so that like Lincoln you might put a guy in charge not fully knowing how good he is, and then possibly regretting it and having to remove him from his command.



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