Diplomacy Question (Full Version)

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Gendarme -> Diplomacy Question (9/19/2006 9:12:39 PM)


Greetings, all, this is my first post.

I'm a sometime boardgamer, WWII only so far, but I'm looking forward to two upcoming releases from Matrix as my intro to computer wargaming: World in Flames and this title, Guns of August, as I am very interested in WWI and in gaming WWI (I've only tried a handful of WWI boardgames).

Anyways, to whomever can answer, I have a question regarding Diplomacy especially in regards to Italy.

Officially, WWI began with Italy allied to Germany and Austria as part of the Triple Alliance. As the war went on, the Allies cut Italy a better deal for intervening on the Allied side than the Central Powers did. My question is, will Guns of August allow the Central Powers to make a stronger diplomatic play for Italy?

In several articles and books I've read, there was some ground for Italy intervening on the side of Germany in WWI:

1) Italy's King Vittorio Emanuele III was undecided as to which side to choose, and troops were continually shifted from the Austrian to the French borders of Italy and back throughout 1914.

2) The Italians sought territorial compensation in the form of provinces along the border with the Austro Hungarian Empire as part of the price of intervention on the side of the Central Powers (Trento/Trieste). Berlin entreated Vienna to give in, but the Austrians didn't and Italy declared war on Austria only in May 1915 based on promises made by the Allies in the Treaty of London. Italy didn't declare on Germany until 1916. In any event, Italians were not as enthusiastic about participation in WWI initially no matter which side, so I do not believe an alliance with Austria (who had previously been the enemy of Italian unification) would have been out of the question if the above territories were ceded. But given the internal political situation of Austria-Hungary in 1914/15, I don't know how realistic it would be to have Austria cede any territory to Italy.

3) The original Schleiffen Plan (so I've read) made provision for Italy to send troops to the Western Front on the French-German border, freeing up German troops there for the push through Belgium. Also, the Italians might have launched an offensive along the Italo French border. (They did so in 1940 with negligible results, but their army was not as deficient next to the other powers in 1914 as it was in 1940.) Seeing as that Von Kluck ran out of reserves at critical moments during his drive into Northern France, if he had more troops due to Italian intervention, would the Schleiffen Plan had succeeded with a German entry into Paris? Also, Italy attacking in the south of France, even if unsuccessfully, might have drawn off French reserves from the Battle of the Marne. And one less front for Austria (even though they were able to bottle up the Italians with relatively few troops initially) might make a difference in Austria's other battles.

4) With regards to the Ottoman Empire, according to the Tuchman book Guns of August, the British seizure of two capital ships built by Britain but paid for by the Ottoman Empire really excited Turkish opinion against the British. The German cruisers Goebben and the other one putting into port inside Turkey also swayed the Turks in favor of Germany. Otherwise, before the war, I believe Turkey and Britain enjoyed good relations. It was Enver Pasha who was the main instigator in favor of Germany.

To what extent can the game model some open choices for participation in the War by the Ottoman Empire? Maybe some members here on the list have more info on the Ottomans in 1914, but is an Allied Turkey out of the question?

Other countries that could have gone either way:

Rumania (had a Hohenzollern King), I believe was previously disposed towards Germany but joined the Allies based on the Italian example of wanting to gain ethnically Italian areas at Austria's expense (as the Rumanians showed by invading Transylvania when they entered the war).

Greece (which also had a Hohenzollern as King?)

One last question: How will the game handle neutral countries that managed to stay neutral throughout World War I? For example, the Netherlands and Denmark. Will the game allow for invasions of those countries by either side?

Anyone know what Spain did during those years?

Regards,

Anthony DeChristopher




sol_invictus -> RE: Diplomacy Question (9/19/2006 11:14:00 PM)

All I can venture to say about diplomacy is that it will be possible to sway the initial neutrals to either stay neutral or even join your alliance through the use of diplomatic effort. Sorry, but that is about all the detail I am aware of.




SMK-at-work -> RE: Diplomacy Question (9/20/2006 3:43:11 AM)

There is only 1 actual option IIRC - Italy will join the Central Powers if Paris is captured before it joins the Triple Entente.

Other than that diplomacy can speed up or slow down countries joining whicever side they joined historically, but cannot reverse which side they join.

there probably is some room for pre-war diplomacy that would change the default positions somewhat - such as the Brits not seizing the 2 Turkish dreadnoughts, but that would also have to involve giving the Turks 2 more dreadnoughts on their order of battle.




Syagrius -> RE: Diplomacy Question (9/21/2006 5:42:28 PM)

About the gameplay, will we be allowed to play individual countries or just Allies and Central Powers? Will secondary countries like Greece will be playable?




FrankHunter -> RE: Diplomacy Question (9/21/2006 8:53:33 PM)

Its a 2 person game, Central Powers or the Entente.

The CP can spend diplomatic points to try to keep Italy neutral.  Otherwise it will only join the CP side if Paris falls and Italy is still neutral.

Romania and Greece are considered to be pro-Allied.  The CP player can attempt to keep them neutral but can't change their side.

The Ottomans I'll leave for now cause I'm considering a few changes.

The Netherlands can be invaded.  Denmark Sweden and Spain are impassable.






dconklin -> RE: Diplomacy Question (10/24/2006 1:00:04 AM)

>Spain are impassable

By that do you mean that they can't come in on the side of the Central Powers?




SMK-at-work -> RE: Diplomacy Question (10/25/2006 3:28:43 AM)

Spain doesn't come into the game at all.




Syagrius -> RE: Diplomacy Question (10/27/2006 6:19:32 PM)

I hope that the Belgium army will put a good fight in the game like they did in 1914. If it wasnt of it, the Germans had pretty good chances to reach Paris.




SMK-at-work -> RE: Diplomacy Question (10/28/2006 1:55:17 AM)

The Belgians have enough force in the game to slow the Germans down, but they can't stop them.




iamspamus -> RE: Diplomacy Question (12/21/2006 1:12:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

Its a 2 person game, Central Powers or the Entente.

The CP can spend diplomatic points to try to keep Italy neutral.  Otherwise it will only join the CP side if Paris falls and Italy is still neutral.

Romania and Greece are considered to be pro-Allied.  The CP player can attempt to keep them neutral but can't change their side.

The Ottomans I'll leave for now cause I'm considering a few changes.

The Netherlands can be invaded.  Denmark Sweden and Spain are impassable.





I hope that if the Ottomans have some chance for backing out then the others can too. The Brits really pissed off the Turks and "forced" them into the hands of the Germans.

Jason




SMK-at-work -> RE: Diplomacy Question (12/21/2006 11:33:32 PM)

It's not so much that they get an opportunity to back out - instead there are now gqme options for various "minor" powers to join the otehr side. I expect this will be expanded for them to stay neutral.




sol_invictus -> RE: Diplomacy Question (3/16/2007 7:23:27 PM)

Is it still possible for the CP to gain Italian allegiance if Paris falls before Italy joins the TE? I was re-reading old posts last night; yes I'm desperately anticipating this game; and came across this thread and my eyes widened when I read conditions for Italian entry into the war. I had forgotten about this because I know I have read this post several times ove the past year. If this is still true, I will certainly have to give some serious thought about re-directing my gaze west. The fact the Britain starts the war as a belligerent and with the possibility of Italy not only staying neutral but joining the CP, it seems like going for broke in the west might be the best course.

Germany will never have as good a chance of knocking out France as at the beginning of the war and if they can at least reach Paris early and Italy joins the CP in a mercenary manner, it should spell the death of France. After that, Russia can be dealt with in good time. As I have said before, imo Germany must be well on the road to victory by late 1915 or she will be ground into the dust.




sol_invictus -> RE: Diplomacy Question (3/22/2007 5:30:28 PM)

So how are Diplomatic Points accumulated and how is it determined how many an alliance gets? Do military victories grab some prestige that is reflected by gaining Diplomatic Points? Is it still possible for the CP to gain Italian intervention on the within the CP alliance if the CP captures Paris before Italy enters the war in the TE alliance? Frank mentioned that he was considering diplomatic changes for Turkey; what did he come up with. I assume that Diplomatic actions are handled in the Strategic Phases?




7th Somersets -> RE: Diplomacy Question (3/22/2007 6:56:44 PM)

Arinvald,

Diplomacy action points are purchased in the strategic phase, using up valuable points that can be otherwise spent on soldiers, ammunition, offensives etc...

As with all things in the game - you have to balance your many choices with the likely results - or with the necessity of the situation.

Regards.




sol_invictus -> RE: Diplomacy Question (3/23/2007 5:25:24 AM)

Thanks, I can see many difficult decisions in the future.[&:]




randell765 -> RE: Diplomacy Question (3/23/2007 7:20:48 AM)

quote:

Diplomacy action points are purchased in the strategic phase, using up valuable points that can be otherwise spent on soldiers, ammunition, offensives etc...


With diplomacy points

1)Can you see how much the enemy is spending on countries? An example, if the enemy spends 2 points on Italy do you then decide how many points you want to spend on Italy?
2)How many supplies does it cost for 1 diplomacy point?
3)Is diplomacy on a track or time limit?  Example, does Italy have to reach 6 diplomacy towards allies before they join the alliance?  or if it hits 1917 or such does Italy automatically join the allies?
4)ammunition?  Is this seperate?  I just figured ammunition would be part of supplies, food, water, ammunition, blankets for winter, etc..etc..etc..

Thanks for the help




7th Somersets -> RE: Diplomacy Question (3/23/2007 10:27:03 AM)

1) No - you don't see what others are spending. You can spend a maximum of 1 point/country that you influence.
2) It is 1 point to influence 1 nation. It is not unduly onerous for the larger countries.
3) There is a 'bar' that shows how the country is orientated - an option for many is 'entry' into the war on a given side. As you spend points it can influence a country towards your cause. If I am TE for example I will try and get Italy into the war asap to open that front. Even if they do not have a massive offensive capacity it can pin down a lot of CP troops. I also try to get the USA involved asap for obvious reasons.
4) Sorry - my vague comment didn't really help. You need to spend resources to purchase artillery shells thereby accurately reflecting the ability of some countries to maintain large scale offensives with artillery support. (eg British/Commonwealth troops at Loos in 1915). The rest of the food/blankets etc are in a general 'supply' category - ie determined by where you are (eg in the middle of a desert it is not so good) and your access to supplies (ie that you are not cut off).




randell765 -> RE: Diplomacy Question (3/23/2007 2:17:57 PM)

Thanks for all the help, man I can't wait until this game is released.




sol_invictus -> RE: Diplomacy Question (3/23/2007 5:29:04 PM)

Yeah, I'm starting to have the shakes in anticipation.




Marc gto -> RE: Diplomacy Question (3/26/2007 9:56:28 PM)

I KNOW NOTHING OF WW1 HISTORY..BUT THIS GAME HAS ME INTRIGUED




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