China & India Strategy (stock)

China & India Strategy (stock) (Full Version)

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Tetsuo -> China & India Strategy (stock) (9/27/2006 2:47:37 PM)
Hey everyone, if you have the time I got a few questions about the mainland Asian theater playing as allied side. In my two pbem games as allies both my opponents are using a very effective tactic, bombing the resources together with amassing a Japanese Uber Stack of Death. [:@][;)] Is there a way to counter this? Since these are my first pbem games Im sort of in the dark when it comes to the AV balance in China. I also underestimated the effectivness of my Chinese troops because when they have supply and not in the same hex as the JUSD can actually give the Japs a fight. Problem is, if I turtle up at the main defensive line I will get destroyed. If I go on the offensive that might delay the inevitable but then I have a feeling my whole front could collapse from a single mistake. . withdrawing everything to the interior could work and force them to leave the eight lane highways but thats just a boring tactic and I have the feeling that with the right play you could slow him down considerably before this becomes a necessity. About India, I get the feeling that the same applies here as in China, that if the Japanese player uses maximum force all you can do is sit and watch him grind your troops to dust. Of course in India you get the added bonus of using up your British pilot pool in a few glorious kamikaze raids. [:'(] Still WItP as allies is a lot of fun, I really enjoy the cat and mouse feel of the game. Main problem is that when I move anything outside of San Fransisco Im just making it easier for my opponents to destroy it. [8\|]

Nikademus -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/27/2006 4:29:50 PM)
quote: In my two pbem games as allies both my opponents are using a very effective tactic, bombing the resources together with amassing a Japanese Uber Stack of Death One of the more common tactics is to hang back and wait for your own Allied uber stac of Death to form. In lieu of that, try choosing a place of battle or target where the main Japanese carrier force isn't. The one problem with concentration is that you can only be in one place at one time. Some players have also had success combining LBA + CV's in an attempt to punch through but expect heavy losses. In the case of India, i'd not waste airpower on the CV's but husband it for a battle in the interior falling back on Karachi. Even if all the industry in India is destroyed, there's enough auto supply coming in for all of the Commonwealth's needs. China is a different matter. You can try to prop her up via air supply to Yunan but it takes alot of airpower. quote: also underestimated the effectivness of my Chinese troops because when they have supply and not in the same hex as the JUSD can actually give the Japs a fight. Shhhh! thats a well kept secret. [;)]

KDonovan -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/27/2006 4:52:28 PM)
is your oppenent bombing resource centers in China?? cause if he is..all hope is lose..and you might as well just retreat everything back to Chungking

Tetsuo -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/27/2006 5:04:05 PM)
Thanks for the tips Nikademus. [:)] Would be nice to give the Japanese a proper fight in China to save at least a little of ones pride. I mean the rest of the allied forces are busy running for their lives... [;)]

Tetsuo -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/27/2006 5:11:55 PM)
KDonovan > I just never imagined what kind of effect this would have on gameplay. For my next game Im probably going to request some sort of house rule. For example no Japanese bombing of China resources and in return no basing of allied 4e in China. Of course if he wins there is never gonna be any airfields to place the bombers from, so I dont know what would be a fair return of that favor. Japanese would probably still neutralize China with resources running but at least it wouldnt be this kind of blitzkrieg that makes the Germans look like amateurs. [;)]

Nikademus -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/27/2006 5:15:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tetsuo Thanks for the tips Nikademus. [:)] Would be nice to give the Japanese a proper fight in China to save at least a little of ones pride. I mean the rest of the allied forces are busy running for their lives... [;)] Under the right management, China is more than defensible, too much so in some ways. I recently got my head handed to me in China playing as Japan. As for the resources. Yes, you can either house rule it (one popular one is no DB's on strategic bombing though that leaves regular LBA to do it) or you can try a mod. (for example, i removed the targets in China and replaced them with unbombable daily supply.

Tetsuo -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/27/2006 5:20:51 PM)
While clicking on random threads I found this nice post by jolly_pillager posted back in february. quote: Posted By jolly_pillager Agree totally...In mine and Alfrake's game I started by trying to stack up in Changsa with horrible results. After that fiasco I scattered my defenders to amke them harder to attack. Try splitting several Corps up into brigades and running these deep into his rear. This does several things. 1: Threatens his supply lines, forcing him to garrison his rear and rail lines and disrupting the flow of supply to the front. 2: Gets Chinese units off of the Chinese logistical tail. This is very important...China has nowhere near enough supply to feed all it's men and 5 units at full supply defend just as well as 20 with no supply...and give the Jap a much more distributed target. 3: Creates a "smoke screen" that allows you to mass for a large push without the Jap being able to automatically see it coming. 4: Places reaction forces all along the front...vital because road movement is so slow. Keep in mind that your men are completely expendable...if a unit is destroyed it reforms in 30 days...very fast. Try to remember that many of the front line bases are also expendable. Allow the Jap to take them and watch as his supply lines are stretched, his garrison requirements go up, and his lines of communication lengthen. Do not waste your AF on useless raids...use them to move supply about instead. The Chinese front is all about supply. Move the SEAC units to India, not only will they bolster Indian defense but they will cease to be a drain on Chinese supply. If he moves at you in a big stack (and he will) don't fight it. Why get your men killed fighting something you can't beat? Instead go for the jugular and let him move deep into your space (where it will take MONTHS to retreat from) and cut his supply lines. Let starvation kill the Jap for you and then follow him out taking back the teritory they claimed. Your ultimate goal is to force the Japanese player to spread his units out into a line...with security units running in the rear fighting guerillas. Then you can use your superior numbers to gang up on an isolated segment of the line and defeat it, withdraw, and repeat elsewhere. Always remember that the Chinese front is slow moving...don't get over-excited and make sure to plan at least a month in advance. Last thought...Keep the rear garrisoned! It sucks to have paratroops or roving bands of armor cut YOUR supply lines.

AmiralLaurent -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/27/2006 5:48:33 PM)
The stock position in China is really a problem because most of the Chinese troops are out of position and Japan may have taken several bases before you can use them. The only solution will be to put pressure where you can... that is on the Homan-Kaifeng axis, and in Nanning area. Taking Kaifeng is possible if Japan send troops here and there, and will allow you to send guerilla (divide one of your unit) to inner China. Taking Nanning will score some troops points, and will enable your troops in the area to march to Wuchow. Don't try to take Canton, but advance in its direction and the Japanese player won't be able to send all his troops to take HK. Once HK has fallen, send some troops from Wuchow/Kweilin towards Changsha to reinforce this area. On turn 1, send troops from Chungking, Yunan and Sian towards Changsha and Yenen, they are the most endangered points of your perimeter. But keep at least 100 ASS points in each of your city to stop para attacks. Use your bombers to fly recon, especially of Japanese units outside bases, then you can see the Japanese deployement and its evolution. The key to stop Japan is to harass its supply lines... It will give you time to bring more troops to the frontline and build forts etc... As for the bombing of Chinese resources, it can become very costly for Japan if you bring back the AVG reinfroced by Chinese fighters for one ambush or two... Then Japan may still bomb your resource centers, but will have to keep Zero in China to do that and in the first month of the game can't afford that, or will be slowed down elsewhere. One of the key of holding China is holding the Burma road... Try to move those SEAC divisions as fast as possible (I usually move one by air to have more troops in Mandalay faster, using Dutch transport AC, and then all C-47 and Dakota available in the game). But keep a SEAC division in reserve in China, it will be your aeromobile reserve. Keep bombers in Ledo flying supplies to China.

Tetsuo -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/27/2006 7:43:34 PM)
AmiralLaurent >> Thanks! These are some great practical advice. [:)] I have tried a few of these tactics right from the start in my 2nd pbem (where I corrected most of the fowlups from the 1st) and it really puts a whole different spin on the China campaign. Btw I love reading your AAR. [:)]

niceguy2005 -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/27/2006 7:48:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tetsuo Try splitting several Corps up into brigades and running these deep into his rear. This does several things. Oh NO! He did not just say that? [X(][X(][X(] [:D]

Nemo121 -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/27/2006 8:29:24 PM)
Well you CAN hit Japanese carriers in 41 and 42 with a very good chance of success so long as you stack the odds in your favour. IIRC I had 3 CVs face up against the 6 of KB in late December 41 in the Northern Climatic Area. End result I managed to put 500 Lbers into 4 Japanese CVs and lost 1 myself. Putting 4 of those CVs into the yards for 3 to 4 months in early 42 is well worth an Allied carrier... and if I'd just rolled a bit more fortunately and gotten 1000lbers instead of 500lbers a couple of those CVs would have gone down ( it is a long way from Alaska to Tokyo). As to China... It really isn't necessary to bomb resources to defeat the Chinese in stock but if your opponent does it I suggest you retreat from him into a fortified base (preferably across a river or in some mountains or forest) and just mass your own stock of death on the opposite flank. Attack him and you will force him to weaken his own forces thus robbing the stack of death of much of its power. As to India.. It is definitely takeable by the Japanese and the KEY to defending it is to fight the Japanese in DEI... I did this in a game I AARed about the first month of and fought extremely aggressively. By the end of the 1st month the Japanese had lost well over 100 ships (including 4 BBs) , over 1000 airplanes and had had their first landing in Java/Sumatra repelled. The sacrifice I had made in order to do this was that I'd abandoned most of Malaysia without a fight. The end result of this strategy, however, was that my opponent no longer had the naval strength ( being down 4 BBs sunk, loads of CLs and DD and 4 CVs in repair yards) to force an invasion of India prior to May 1942 with reasonable chances of success. So, the fight for India should occur in the DEI with a super-aggressive defence of one's holdings there. By the time the sheer attrition wears your British, Dutch and Australian forces down to nothingness you should have dozens of B17s, Wildcats, Dauntlesses etc available after having flown and shipped them across the Pacific and they can then fly into DEI from Oz and give your defence additional strength just as the invasion convoys approach.

niceguy2005 -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/27/2006 8:42:10 PM)
Tetsuo here is the solution to your problems. First a little background. Graycompany I do not intend to give away any future strategies here, but please don't read. India and China are difficult theaters for the Allies early in the war, but are not impossible. You do have to avoid big mistakes. In my PBEM, my opponent seems to be playing the India/China gambit. The game is now at the end of 7/42 (we are playing stock). In the game the Japanese have used just the strategy you described in China, bombing resources, airfields (uses up supplies for repair) and have used constant artillery attacks to lower the Chinese supply levels. The Japanese have massed their troops and are advancing along a single axis toward Chunking. While Chunking will probably come under siege, it appears unlikely at this point that Japan will see ultimate victory in China. The Japanese have also invaded India. The invasion was at Chandpur and Diamond Harbor and while they conquered all of Eastern India (Bengladesh) they were stopped cold at Calcutta and Asansol. Here are tips on how this can be accomplished. 1. When pulling air units out of PI, don't send them all to OZ. Some, in paticular the fighters, must go to India. 1b. I pulled dutch recon units out of DEI and sent them to China. It hurt in some ways to spend political points early converting all those biplanes to China command, but I was thankful for it once they reached China. Your Chinese and Indian bombers are going to be far too busy for recon duty and they aren't very effective at it anyway. Recon of Japanese troop movements is critical to the early defence of China. 2. China cannot stand on its own. It needs supplies and most importantly air support from India. Keep the Burma road open as long as possible, but don't loose your Burma army doing it. Keep the air transport open from India. Use US P-40s to fly in and out of China to ambush bombing raids. Later, when you have enough fighters to protect China and India you can keep some in China. 3. In China work hard to get your troops in position and dug in along major axes of advance to Chunking. Reinforce Changsa, Homan, Wuhan immediately. Dig in deep. 4. Turn off reinforcements to Chinese troops and use all available supplies to build forts. Prepare not only front line positions, but fall back positions also. 5. Don't be concerned about loosing chinese units outright, they respawn. Send some troops into the wilderness to threaten supply lines. Hold each city until the absolute bitter end. Try to keep an axis of retreat open, but its more important to bide time than have your troops survive. 6. If the Japanese use the land KB, be prepared to counter attack. Since your fighters (US and UK, not Chinese fighters) are protecting your major resource centers you have a decent stock of supplies. Be prepared to counter attack in paticular small Japanese flanking forces or along other fronts. Early I attacked Canton in a bid to get to Hong Kong. The attack eventually failed but pressed the Japanese hard and showed that I was more than willing to go on the offensive if he showed any weakness. 7. Once India is stable send in bomber support. Bombing advancing Japanese troops slows them down and uses up their supply. To hold in China you MUST eventually win air superiority. 8. In regard to holding India, don't loose the Burma army. Even if it takes a while you must eventually retreat to India, or actually manage to hang on to Burma. 9. Evacuate some of the Sing forces to India (I only evacaute whole or major parts of a force, avoiding the gamey tactic of evacuating a couple of squads by sub to rebuild the whole unit later). Even a couple of extra brigades can make a huge difference in the beginning. Also, you will need some of the base forces to help prepare forts at rearward bases. 10. Focus on building forts first. Use mine layers to heavily mine major ports and invasion points. Build up not just front line areas, but also rear bases like Hyperbad, Luckkonw and Dehli. Keep garrisons at Karachi and Bombay (guard the back door) Again focus on forts first and airfields second. 11. Send a few Chinese units to India. Even 3-4 divisions can make a HUGE difference in the early defence and will make little extra difference in China. India has to survive to help China later. 12. Again, you MUST win the air war in India if you are to win the war. If attacked pull back into urban areas like Calcutta. Your aircraft will repair much more effectively and troops dont suffer malaria problems. 13. No matter what, as the allied player you can not sit back on your heels in the opening months of the war. A strategy of retreat will see a competent Japanese player over run allied defenses. You have to make the Japanese work for everything.

Graycompany -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/27/2006 9:43:48 PM)
Well, In my Game with Niceguy I can let some information out now. In China his Air power has checked my strategy for the moment. I used manuver and feints to go around the right flank of China and i am now only a few hexes from chunking. He stopped me in changsa, and while I did try an take it, i quickly switched to try and hold down troops so I could go around the right. Bombing resources seemed to be working ( you have to ask him how well). Once he committed a few hundred fighters to the area this has slowed me down, and reduced me to smaller raids at different places and night bombing. I think that the situation in China for him is nearing a critical point. He has had two previous critical points, and has come out on top. He gained air control over Calcutta and i gave up rather quickly on trying to rest it from him. I think that as the jap player you can not have a huge lost in in one area (ships, planes, ground ect) and win the game. If your oppent committs to something and gains an advantage, this becomes a critical juncture. If I committ more and lose, for a gain that may not help me win the game, but in effect helps my enemy win, then this is folly. So far my Ground forces are in excellent shape with great experience. My Air power has stayed steady with lots of planes in reserve. As far as ships, AK's and Ap's have take there bumbs, but I have only lost 1 Capitol ship (CA) and the rest are well rested. He has not seen the KB for over a month now. (could be anywhere [:D]). Soon he will start his offence and I will be on defence. As most of my wargaming friends know I am much better at defence then offence. (22 years of marriage can attest to the)[8\|] His defence in Java upset my timetable, and instead of landing in celyon when I landed in the Chandupur and DH area, i was forced to delay. While I was able to take the area's around Calcutta, I was unable to isolate him enough. The delay in Java cost me taking Ceylon. Calcutta became our "Guadacanal". I thought he made a mistake in not abandong Calcutta. I had cut him off time and again and forced lots of troops to surrender both in China and Burma. He stayed, we had huge Air Battles where I lost some of my best pilots, Including my Top Ace. After that it seemed my Air Force morale plumetted, and I was forced to suspend the Air Battle. This I believe may have been the turning point. I focused more effort on China and I hope this may be my "bulge" but with the axis winning. Time will tell. every game is different, but I need to knock China out to win, otherwise the best I can hope for is a Draw. NiceGuy is a great player, very inovative, and intuitive. He is patient and never risked his CV's when the odds were bad. Twice i had ambushes set and both time something made him stop. One was at wake where I had to CV groups one to the south (smaller) and one to the North. He saw the Southern force, but I thought he would push the issue knowing he would be able to replace his loses, but NOOOOOO, like a health food inspector on a cruise ship near denmark, he smelled something rotten. Uncanny really, but as I have come to learn and appreciate this last year, not something unexpected from him. So my advice, dont let the Jap player take china, do everything in your power to keep it.

niceguy2005 -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/27/2006 10:22:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Graycompany NiceGuy is a great player, very inovative, and intuitive. He is patient and never risked his CV's when the odds were bad. Twice i had ambushes set and both time something made him stop. One was at wake where I had to CV groups one to the south (smaller) and one to the North. He saw the Southern force, but I thought he would push the issue knowing he would be able to replace his loses, but NOOOOOO, like a health food inspector on a cruise ship near denmark, he smelled something rotten. Uncanny really, but as I have come to learn and appreciate this last year, not something unexpected from him. Oh sure, now you have me wondering where the other Ambush was set. I suspect it was in the Bay of Bengal during the Ceylon invasion, but I'm not certain. It sure felt like you were daring me to try and raid your transports. Yes, you forced me to abort two invasion attempts at Wake. I suppose I will have to foget about the place now (maybe) as you probably have it ringed with CD guns and level 9 forts. I'm a little amazed that we haven't had a major naval conflict. I have played conservative, but some operations forced me to bring in carrier support (kept in reserve). I was certain we were going to have a carrier duel during the Java campaign. I suspect not too many more weeks will pass before something happens in that regard. Graycompany has been an incredibly challenging opponent. He is aggressive, but calculated. He is forever feinting and flanking...maybe we should be calling you the Gray Fox. [;)] I can only imagine a real life commander would need nerves of steel to stay calm and make good decisions when faced with one of your assualts.

timtom -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/27/2006 10:27:22 PM)
Oi, get a room you two! [:D]

Graycompany -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/27/2006 10:32:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: niceguy2005 Oh sure, now you have me wondering where the other Ambush was set. I suspect it was in the Bay of Bengal during the Ceylon invasion, but I'm not certain. It sure felt like you were daring me to try and raid your transports. Thats exactly where it was. Would have been sweet too. Had a lot of cap flying from Adaman Isle to cover the CV's allowing more of the Naval zero's to escort the Bombers. I was sure you were going to come south of Ceylon and I was 240 South Southeast of the Southern Coast. Had 6 Cv's waiting in two groups.

Graycompany -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/27/2006 10:39:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: niceguy2005 Yes, you forced me to abort two invasion attempts at Wake. I suppose I will have to foget about the place now (maybe) as you probably have it ringed with CD guns and level 9 forts. [ Nah, Few lines of wire, mine here or there and one or two small bunkers.........[sm=00000945.gif] said Niceguy

niceguy2005 -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/27/2006 10:41:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Graycompany quote: ORIGINAL: niceguy2005 Oh sure, now you have me wondering where the other Ambush was set. I suspect it was in the Bay of Bengal during the Ceylon invasion, but I'm not certain. It sure felt like you were daring me to try and raid your transports. Thats exactly where it was. Would have been sweet too. Had a lot of cap flying from Adaman Isle to cover the CV's allowing more of the Naval zero's to escort the Bombers. I was sure you were going to come south of Ceylon and I was 240 South Southeast of the Southern Coast. Had 6 Cv's waiting in two groups. I did detect carriers there. I thought you were just holding back in support though. I had a carrier group off the Southern tip of India waiting for you to commit your carriers, then the Allies were going to swing in and combined with LBA from Colombo deal a decisive blow. I never detected the other carrier group. After one of your raids on Ceylon I did move the carriers in but I guess it was after you gave up. Iirc I managed to sink one lone AK as your carriers had moved off another 3 or 4 hexes. Realizing the jig was up and finally detecting your other carriers I turned tail and ran. [:D]

Tetsuo -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/29/2006 1:03:15 AM)
Thanks for the thoughts and tips nemo and niceguy. [:)] Btw niceguy Im reading your AAR right now. Interesting how you held Greycompany up in DEI for so long. Personally when I put troops in the path of the Japanese advance they just seem to dissapear mysteriously. Bug perhaps? [:D]

niceguy2005 -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/29/2006 1:10:36 AM)
It probably had a lot to do with him diverting some forces to India for an invasion. If I had to face all those troops in DEI as well it would have been a completely different story.

BrucePowers -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/29/2006 3:29:17 AM)
Niceguy; I as wondering how some of these players seem to take India, China, the DEI, New Caledonia, Midway, etc. I know we have talked about a lot of IJN shipping. I don't see how you can be strong in all of these areas at once. Is it a result of a fall back strategy without a stiff defense, ie run and try to come back later? Bruce

niceguy2005 -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (9/29/2006 4:05:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BrucePowers Niceguy; I as wondering how some of these players seem to take India, China, the DEI, New Caledonia, Midway, etc. I know we have talked about a lot of IJN shipping. I don't see how you can be strong in all of these areas at once. Is it a result of a fall back strategy without a stiff defense, ie run and try to come back later? Bruce Bruce, I'm not really sure how things played out exactly the way that they did in my game. Graycompany did not press the Allies much in the South Pacific, at least not compared to some other players. He did try to take Canton and Luganville and I barely fought him off in both instances, but his invading forces were not overwhelming. His game was focused more on India, China and the DEI. Also, my strong defence throughout the DEI may have forced him to shift some resources out of the South Pacific. I suspect that Graycompany may be thinking he would rather preserve his units for a very strong defense rather than spend them on offense. I suspect the Solomons and NG are a fortress, as is Wake. 1943 is going to be a very bloody year for the Allies. One tactic I used was to fight basically a guerilla war. I never committed a capital ship, but there was a DD squadron or PT boat and lots of subs at every invasion he tried. I also didn't hesitate to through air power at him, regardless of allied losses. Lastly I used air transport a lot, I tried to stay somewhat mobile. In his campaign to take Canton, where I only had a base force and artillery unit and a marine defence battalion, I used sea planes to air lift in elements of the 1st USMC division. In total I transported about half the division in a week and that was all that was needed to secure Canton. Graycompany seems to be very deliberate in his offensive actions. He chooses his targets carefully, but when he goes for it he goes with a determined amount of force and with a well organized plan. His invasion of Malaya was brilliant. I had a well thought out defence that called for a fighting retreat down the penninsula, but he managed to execute a surprise invasion that cut off half my force from reaching Sing. I think Sing fell before the end of January. Did I ever answer your question? [:D]

jolly_pillager -> RE: China & India Strategy (stock) (10/3/2006 3:44:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: niceguy2005 quote: ORIGINAL: Tetsuo Try splitting several Corps up into brigades and running these deep into his rear. This does several things. Oh NO! He did not just say that? [X(][X(][X(] [:D] [:D] Totally unintentional I can assure you.

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