New Decoy Possibilities (Full Version)

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Bucks -> New Decoy Possibilities (10/3/2006 6:32:03 AM)

Hi All,

After working through the decoy details a few days back I decided to return to them in the hope of developing a working "chaff cloud" system principally for use on the Tu-16 Badger H.

I've made a chaff cloud weapon that's a "Decoy" and made the valid target "Surface Vessel" I've added a propulsion system based on the weapon coast motor with a speed of 10kts (ave. wind speed?). I tested it and what appeared on screen but a ship "flying at 10 kts altitude 7500m". The AI sees this decoy as a radar target that is displayed as the appropriate platform type. The displayed platform type is based on the selected target for the decoy. So if I change the valid target to "Aircraft" an aircraft will appear at 7500m flying at 10 kts.

As all decoys default to radar as a valid target, giving the decoy a motor and turning it into a stand-off jammer/decoy system makes the selected target field into "what the decoy appears to the enemy as" field. I've tried both "Surface Vessel" and "Aircraft" in the Target field with appropriate results>

Valid Target Decoy Displays to Enemy as
Surface Vessel Ship
Aircraft Aircraft

These are the two examples I've tried so far. I have included a screen shot showing the decoy as it appears to enemy radar. In the screen shot I had set the valid target as "Aircraft" so the decoy appears as a 10kt aircraft flying at 7500m. There are some issues with using this in scenario design. I'm going to work on making the AI attempt to fire the things. At present it seems it would work in Multi-Player as most of us are smart enough to fire weapons at targets ;-). I'll be spending some time working furiously on this as I believe it opens up possibilities for an expanded role for Electronic Warfare in H3ANW.

There are a few things I need to look at further, like when there's no commlink on the decoy it jams ALL radars within jamming range. (Blue and Red side radar systems.) Realistic but not so sexy in game ;-). Further I've modified a database entry for the Nulka anti-missile decoy system. This now works in point defence mode and allows for BOL launch to simulate stand-off jamming. I used a torpedo motor on the Nulka system as I wanted the decoy to appear as a logical ship platform. ie crusing on the surface not at 7500m. (I'm not just trying to fool the AI). I included the 0 damage warhead but the issue here with AI use is that the intercept can't occur until just prior to point defence resolution occuring. Incoming missile speed versus intercepting decoy at 20kts...

The other big issue was seeing the "radar attack selection screen" appear as you would if using HARM missiles. This allowed me to select the incoming missile seeker radar for jamming. Further updates as I progress, and as always pleae feel free to fire questions at me.

Thanks

Darren









[image]local://upfiles/21733/EB8B61B5158545F88EE46AFF882A0A95.jpg[/image]



hermanhum -> RE: New Decoy Possibilities (10/3/2006 7:49:20 AM)

Would this type of "StandOff Jamming/Chaff cloud" be useable by the AI?  Or is it limited to player use?



Bucks -> RE: New Decoy Possibilities (10/3/2006 9:03:39 AM)

See above and now repeated:

quote:

There are some issues with using this in scenario design. I'm going to work on making the AI attempt to fire the things. At present it seems it would work in Multi-Player as most of us are smart enough to fire weapons at targets


and

quote:

I included the 0 damage warhead but the issue here with AI use is that the intercept can't occur until just prior to point defence resolution occuring. Incoming missile speed versus intercepting decoy at 20kts...


I'll try a dual speed propulsion system for the surface decoy that may overcome the intercept speed issue. The airborne decoy again may present issues with intercept speeds. I think the most important issue here is the "fake" contacts/decoys showing as platforms.

I will need to work on this further obviously. I discovered this 6 hours ago so everything is in prototype at present. Even if it's not useable by the AI now I'm sure you would agree that having the ability to place false targets and use stand-off jamming is worth exploring for Multi-Player use if nothing else.

Thanks

Darren



Bucks -> RE: New Decoy Possibilities (10/9/2006 4:40:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

Would this type of "StandOff Jamming/Chaff cloud" be useable by the AI?  Or is it limited to player use?



G'day All,

Herman raises an important point for consideration here. Is it acceptable to include weapons systems that the Game Engine can't use with the implementation of Multi-Player to the Harpoon3 system?

I have left the "chaff cloud" decoy system I have made for the HUD3 in place, and even though the Game Engine is unable to utilise the system, human players will be in multi-player mode. As long as scenario designers are aware of some of these "novel" work-arounds and GE limitations things should be fine? I'd like to hear people's opinions on this for and against. Especially from the DB editors if they can spare the time. ;-)

Thanks in advance

Darren




Dimitris -> RE: New Decoy Possibilities (10/9/2006 2:20:20 PM)

I think such items can be freely included as long as they are explicitly marked for use with MP only. MP-only scenarios are perfectly acceptable and likewise MP-only items/units should be fair game.



TonyE -> RE: New Decoy Possibilities (10/9/2006 10:40:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks


quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

Would this type of "StandOff Jamming/Chaff cloud" be useable by the AI?  Or is it limited to player use?



G'day All,

Herman raises an important point for consideration here. Is it acceptable to include weapons systems that the Game Engine can't use with the implementation of Multi-Player to the Harpoon3 system?

Darren



I tend to agree with Sunburn that marking units using such tricks as MP only, human only, etc. would be the optimal solution for scenario designers. That by nature suggests two variants of almost the same platforms for the applicable platforms. So yes, ideal world a MP version and a SP version of the applicable platforms (or affected mounts, magazines, etc.).




hermanhum -> RE: New Decoy Possibilities (10/10/2006 3:17:06 AM)

I think that specific weapons applicable to the AI-only is already used by the most common H3 Databases.

In particular for the PlayersDB, we specify in the text description for these units, "Special platform to aid scenario designers."

Other folks have listed weapons / units as "AI-Only". I think that it is a great idea to have weapons / platforms that might only be Multi-player specific, too. Just because the AI can't use them, doesn't mean that a human shouldn't use them. Better to have half of something than all of nothing... [;)]

In fact, Freek has been making separate versions for many of his PlayersDB scenarios because he wants some special units to help the AI and they would prove to be too powerful in the hands of a human player. He just includes a Solitaire and Multi-Player version within the same zip file so that the user can choose. [8D]



VonTommer -> RE: New Decoy Possibilities (6/26/2007 9:36:04 AM)

Good looking model. Everyone is right about treating the AI and player sides differently. Can't trust every AI element will behave correctly esp. with some of these "creative" models. This is true in other areas. We definitely have to set up our scenario sides deciding early MP, player and AI. Sometimes you cannot get it all three ways. This thread helps me. Thanx.



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