100-percenters (Full Version)

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Gil R. -> 100-percenters (10/3/2006 11:51:58 PM)

We have decided that we need to add a few more generals to the list of "100-percenters," i.e. the generals who are certain to enter the game at some point. (Since our database has 1000 generals, we need to give generals a 9% chance of entering, unless they're famous enough to merit this elevated status.) So, we would like input on who the remaining ones should be. Please note that we cannot make every good or notable general a 100-percenter for game balance reasons -- we need there to be a good mix of average, below-average and above-average generals. So, for the U.S.A. we need 1-2 more, and for the C.S.A. we need 2-4 more. But in addition to 100-percenters we have 25-percenters -- generals who are about three times as likely as an ordinary general to enter the game. Anyone not making the cut as a 100-percenter can become a 25-percenter, until we fill our quota of those guys.

So, here is the list of 100-percenters:

USA: Burnside, Meade, Grant, McClellan, Sherman, Sheridan, Hooker, Pope, McDowell, Thomas

CSA: Forrest, Jackson, Lee, Longstreet, Stuart, A.S. Johnston, J.E. Johnston, Bragg, Beauregard, Early, Pickett, Hardee, Van Dorn

And here are current 25-percenters (Note: this list is unfinished):
Ewell, Rosecrans, Hood, Wigfall, Zollicoffer, Pettigrew

Please use this thread to nominate and discuss the merits of these guys. In 2-3 days I'll create some poll-threads so that we can have voting on which generals to elevate in this manner.

Thank you for participating -- your input will definitely make for a better game.




dh76513 -> RE: 100-percenters (10/4/2006 2:27:23 PM)

I would certainly suggest BG Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain (Congressional Medal of Honor) be added to the Union list as one of those 100-precenters. It would be difficult not to see his name among the leadership structure. In fact, I would enjoy playing the game making Chamberlain, Thomas, Buford, or Sheridan my top general. I would definitely rate this warrior a "superb" leader and he certainly my list of one of the top four (all rated "8" - superb) among the Union general officers and likewise for the CSA with MG Patrick R. Cleburne. I cannot believe Cleburne was left off the South’s list of 100-percenters when he has been rated by most historians as being among the CSA's best. In the words of Jeffry D. Wert, one of our finest Civil War historians, "Cleburne and Forrest were very similar in their leadership style and very likely the two most successful field generals on both sides in the entire Civil War."




dh76513 -> RE: 100-percenters (10/4/2006 4:44:30 PM)

I vote for making MG Patrick R. Cleburne, CSA, a 100-percenter!



[image]local://upfiles/22345/13512DED07A941E2B0923F6CA95559CC.jpg[/image]




raven1 -> RE: 100-percenters (10/5/2006 6:48:43 AM)

U.S.A- Buford, Warren, Hancock, Gibbon and Reynolds.


C.S.A. - A.P.Hill, D.H.Hill,and McLaws




Gil R. -> RE: 100-percenters (10/5/2006 7:06:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dh76513

I would certainly suggest BG Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain (Congressional Medal of Honor) be added to the Union list as one of those 100-precenters. It would be difficult not to see his name among the leadership structure. In fact, I would enjoy playing the game making Chamberlain, Thomas, Buford, or Sheridan my top general. I would definitely rate this warrior a "superb" leader and he certainly my list of one of the top four (all rated "8" - superb) among the Union general officers and likewise for the CSA with MG Patrick R. Cleburne. I cannot believe Cleburne was left off the South’s list of 100-percenters when he has been rated by most historians as being among the CSA's best. In the words of Jeffry D. Wert, one of our finest Civil War historians, "Cleburne and Forrest were very similar in their leadership style and very likely the two most successful field generals on both sides in the entire Civil War."


Cleburne's a good suggestion. I'm sure he would have ended up on our (still incomplete) list of 25-percenters, but he may well be the best candidate for promotion to 100-percenter status.

As for Chamberlain, I'm torn, and would like to know what others think. He's most famous, of course, for what he did before he became a general. And his career as a general doesn't compare to that moment at Little Round Top, and his career as a general doesn't compare to the careers of guys most famous for what they did as generals. So should he be a 100-percenter? It would be nice to have him in the game on a somewhat regular basis, so perhaps he should be a 25-percenter. Thoughts?




Gil R. -> RE: 100-percenters (10/5/2006 7:07:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: raven1

U.S.A- Buford, Warren, Hancock, Gibbon and Reynolds.


C.S.A. - A.P.Hill, D.H.Hill,and McLaws


Thanks for the suggestions. I'll include these names when we vote (probably this weekend, after there's been enough time for further nominations).




Gil R. -> RE: 100-percenters (10/5/2006 7:08:11 AM)

Let me add that if anyone has suggested generals in an earlier thread on the main forum I'd appreciate it if you'd put their names here too. There are too many messages to read, so I might miss what you wrote there. Thanks.




dh76513 -> RE: 100-percenters (10/5/2006 4:12:52 PM)

Thanks Gil for listening and for at least opening this issue up for debate. My argument in making Chamberlain a 100-percenter is noted as follows. From Antietam in 1862 to the triumphal grand review of the armies in May of 1865, Chamberlain saw much of the war in the East that included 24 battles and numerous skirmishes. He was wounded six times and had six horses shot from under him.

He received what is believed to be the only battlefield promotion to a general officer ever given by Grant. Due to his great success at Gettysburg, Chamberlain was promoted to the rank of MG by President Abraham Lincoln. Finally, In 1893 Chamberlain was awarded the Medal of Honor for his “Daring heroism and great tenacity in holding his position on the Little Round Top against repeated assaults, and carrying the advance position on the Great Round Top” at Gettysburg. In fact, he is credited with “turning the tide of the Civil War at Gettysburg” as noted in the website below:

http://www.joshuachamberlain.com/

With this being said, I think Chamberlain was responsible for one of the most important scenes of the Civil War. He presided over the ceremony of the CSA surrender. During this ceremony, Chamberlain had his men salute the defeated Confederates as they marched by evidence of his admiration of their valor and respect for the common soldier. These actions further encouraged the confederate armies still in the field to accept the peace. His actions have been incorporated into today’s military policy on enemy surrender.

And for these reasons and many more, to exclude Chamberlain for the game would be a careless decision especially for those who have a sincere appreciation for this period in our country’s history.




Williamb -> RE: 100-percenters (10/5/2006 4:46:30 PM)

Also need to consider bad generals as 100 percenters.

Maybe Howard, Fremont, or even Sigel just to saddle the players with someone they dont want.




Gil R. -> RE: 100-percenters (10/5/2006 6:56:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: William Amos

Also need to consider bad generals as 100 percenters.

Maybe Howard, Fremont, or even Sigel just to saddle the players with someone they dont want.


Yes, I should have been clear about this: not every 100-percenter is supposed to be a Lee or a Grant. The idea is to have the most famous and important Civil War generals appear regularly, and not all of those guys were exactly outstanding (see, e.g., McClellan and Bragg). So please let me know of any generals who are too central to the war to omit, even if they had some rather large flaws.




Gil R. -> RE: 100-percenters (10/5/2006 7:00:22 PM)

dh76513, having thought about it, I'm convinced that Chamberlain should be in the game, just as it was obvious to me that Pickett should be included. I'm not convinced that he should be a 100-percenter, but I'll be putting his name up for voting, along with the other candidates to be 100-percenters. Even if he doesn't get enough votes for that status, he'll still be a 25-percenter. But I think you're definitely right that he should have a good chance to appear each time one plays.




dh76513 -> RE: 100-percenters (10/5/2006 9:01:08 PM)

Thanks Gil. William, beautiful photograph of the of the USS New Jersey battleship firing her 16 inch guns! Awesome! Just think about having her as a blockade runner?




dh76513 -> RE: 100-percenters (10/6/2006 6:44:10 PM)

With all these issues around generals and the percentages of them appearing in the game, I have some questions. Do the general officers appear as the Union and Confederate military numbers increase? Does one have an initial pool of general officers from which each side can select? Can one only promote general officers form “those generals” that were generals at the onset of the Civil War or can you make general officers (e.g. In October 1861, for example, Nathan Bedford Forrest was a LTC over the Tennessee Cavalry Battalion)? Although I have illustrated my point and in agreement with Gil that the generals ratings should remain fixed (see post under the thread Generals Ratings -- Overview), please disclose a little information behind those 100-percenters, how promotions effects command, how general officers are placed in command of newly created units, and how what are the smallest levels one can appoint to command (i.e., Brigade, Division), etc.? Just curious!




Oldguard -> RE: 100-percenters (10/6/2006 7:10:43 PM)

Gil,

I'm sure you have valid reasons but I was interested in knowing why Pickett is a 100%-er and Ewell only 25%?

EDIT: Just curious, where do Union cavalry commanders Judson Kilpatrick, John Buford and Wesley Merritt sit?




genie144 -> RE: 100-percenters (10/6/2006 9:03:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dh76513
William, beautiful photograph of the of the USS New Jersey battleship firing her 16 inch guns! Awesome! Just think about having her as a blockade runner?


Are you sure it isn't the Missouri?

Sam




dh76513 -> RE: 100-percenters (10/6/2006 9:47:11 PM)

Sam, I think you may be correct especially when I focus on the Helicopter pad. Magnificent ships!




Oldguard -> RE: 100-percenters (10/6/2006 11:35:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: genie144


quote:

ORIGINAL: dh76513
William, beautiful photograph of the of the USS New Jersey battleship firing her 16 inch guns! Awesome! Just think about having her as a blockade runner?


Are you sure it isn't the Missouri?

Sam

I can't see at that resolution (my eyes aren't that good) but the Missouri would have BB63 stenciled on the top of the turrets. Like this:

USS Missouri at Pearl Harbor




RERomine -> RE: 100-percenters (10/7/2006 12:08:37 AM)

For a generic answer, how about considering all commanders of large armies or independent commands, corps and maybe some Confederate divisions. For an army commander to be considered, it would have to be at least as large as typical Confederate division. That would leave Nathaniel Lyon out. Many Union divisions were only two brigades, so I left them out. Confederate divisions could be fairly sizable, however. Rodes and R. H. Anderson at Gettysburg had five brigades each. Pickett's division at Gettysburg was only three brigades, but a brigade or two were detached and weren't present for the campaign. Using this method, the game will have the good, the bad and the ugly. From there, you have a heathy list and some can be weeded out at that point. Others, not falling in any of the above categories can be petitioned on a case by case basis.




Gil R. -> RE: 100-percenters (10/7/2006 12:14:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oldguard

Gil,

I'm sure you have valid reasons but I was interested in knowing why Pickett is a 100%-er and Ewell only 25%?

EDIT: Just curious, where do Union cavalry commanders Judson Kilpatrick, John Buford and Wesley Merritt sit?





Pickett has more name-recognition. In my opinion, his fame merits inclusion as a 100-percenter, but I'd be willing to entertain arguments that he be demoted to 25-percenter status.

Ewell will be up for voting as a potential 100-percenter.

I take it that Kilpatrick, Buford and Merritt should also be included in the voting? We could definitely use some more Union generals with cavalry skills (though I think the South should get more, and thus get an advantage in that department).




Gil R. -> RE: 100-percenters (10/7/2006 12:16:16 AM)

RERomine,
I hear what you're saying about casting a big net, but that might make the list of candidates too big. I'd rather go with guys whom people on this forum know and think worthy of consideration. It'll make our lives easier.




RERomine -> RE: 100-percenters (10/7/2006 3:15:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

RERomine,
I hear what you're saying about casting a big net, but that might make the list of candidates too big. I'd rather go with guys whom people on this forum know and think worthy of consideration. It'll make our lives easier.


Not really sure how many slots you have available for 100% and 25% officers. These are the ones who gave it the civil war the character it ended up with. Just don't forget, for every Longstreet and Hancock, there is a Sickles and Pickett.




Gil R. -> RE: 100-percenters (10/7/2006 3:21:36 AM)

Right now, we have 13 CSA and 10 USA 100-percenters, and we want to get that up to a 17-12 ratio. (For those wondering, giving the CSA extra 100-percenters is a game-balance issue -- the North has greater resources and manpower, so having a few more good generals for the South can partly offset that -- but also seems to reflect historical reality.) (I might need to duck after writing that sentence.)

So, I'm hoping to add a total of six more 100-percenters, and we also want to end up with around 10 25-percenters for each side.

Later tonight I'll try to put together a list of guys who as of now would be voted on.




RERomine -> RE: 100-percenters (10/7/2006 4:05:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

Right now, we have 13 CSA and 10 USA 100-percenters, and we want to get that up to a 17-12 ratio. (For those wondering, giving the CSA extra 100-percenters is a game-balance issue -- the North has greater resources and manpower, so having a few more good generals for the South can partly offset that -- but also seems to reflect historical reality.) (I might need to duck after writing that sentence.)

So, I'm hoping to add a total of six more 100-percenters, and we also want to end up with around 10 25-percenters for each side.

Later tonight I'll try to put together a list of guys who as of now would be voted on.


Sounds like you are considering only good generals for 100-percenters. Even if you gave the Union a 2:1 ratio of 100-percenters, most of them probably be bad anyhow. Let's see, before they got to Meade in the East, there was McDowell, McClellen, Pope, Burnside and Hooker. Meade I would rate as either a 4 or 5, but considering those who came before him, that was a vast improvement.

Are there situations where the need for a general, even a bad one, is required? One old board game I played required a general to form an army. Armies allowed smaller units to move collectively. My point is if generals don't have a use beyond combat, bad generals will all end up in the old general's home in Chicago.




Gil R. -> RE: 100-percenters (10/7/2006 4:22:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RERomine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

Right now, we have 13 CSA and 10 USA 100-percenters, and we want to get that up to a 17-12 ratio. (For those wondering, giving the CSA extra 100-percenters is a game-balance issue -- the North has greater resources and manpower, so having a few more good generals for the South can partly offset that -- but also seems to reflect historical reality.) (I might need to duck after writing that sentence.)

So, I'm hoping to add a total of six more 100-percenters, and we also want to end up with around 10 25-percenters for each side.

Later tonight I'll try to put together a list of guys who as of now would be voted on.


Sounds like you are considering only good generals for 100-percenters. Even if you gave the Union a 2:1 ratio of 100-percenters, most of them probably be bad anyhow. Let's see, before they got to Meade in the East, there was McDowell, McClellen, Pope, Burnside and Hooker. Meade I would rate as either a 4 or 5, but considering those who came before him, that was a vast improvement.

Are there situations where the need for a general, even a bad one, is required? One old board game I played required a general to form an army. Armies allowed smaller units to move collectively. My point is if generals don't have a use beyond combat, bad generals will all end up in the old general's home in Chicago.



Well, sort of. Our goal wasn't necessarily to get the best generals, so much as the most famous and prominent. Most of those, of course, were among the best generals, but not all (see Bragg, Braxton). Personally, I like the idea of saddling both sides with a few poor 100-percenter generals as well as a bunch of good ones -- if the player is lucky, he might get a random 9- or 25-percenter with better overall ratings than some of the 100-percenters, and therefore won't need to promote the dud. (And, as I mentioned, it's good for game-balance to do this. Since several of the Union 100-percenters have poor ratings in at least one category while most of the Confederate 100-percenters are quite good, at the beginning of the game the odds are that the South will start with more good generals than the North, which helps minimize the chance of the North winning the war right away.)

In addition to serving in armies, generals give defensive bonuses to forts and cities under siege. When I play, once I have enough generals to fill the needed positions in the army, I start stashing all mediocre generals in forts and cities for that reason.

Also, Eric recently made generals a game option. There are so many complex rules involving generals that he felt it made sense to let those wishing to play a simple game not have to worry about them. My guess is that few people will use this option, since part of the fun is having Lee or Grant at the head of your army, but it's good to have the option there.




Williamb -> RE: 100-percenters (10/7/2006 5:07:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oldguard


quote:

ORIGINAL: genie144


quote:

ORIGINAL: dh76513
William, beautiful photograph of the of the USS New Jersey battleship firing her 16 inch guns! Awesome! Just think about having her as a blockade runner?


Are you sure it isn't the Missouri?

Sam

I can't see at that resolution (my eyes aren't that good) but the Missouri would have BB63 stenciled on the top of the turrets. Like this:

USS Missouri at Pearl Harbor




This is the direct link to the picture. It states that the ship is the USS Missouri.

http://www.geocities.com/guy_conquest/battles/images/missouri_firing.jpg




Williamb -> RE: 100-percenters (10/7/2006 5:10:49 AM)

Any chance of Naval commanders ? Can add Farragut for that 100%.

Edited to add I just remembered Ben Butler and Nathaniel Banks two union generals that were political appointees and hard for Lincoln to get rid of.





Goodwin -> RE: 100-percenters (10/7/2006 8:50:34 AM)

After following this game and lurking on the boards for a while now, I want to try and make a contribution and also occupy my desire for Civil War fun until it comes out by contributing to the discussion about generals.

My first thought on the hundred percenters, is that Henry Halleck very definitely needs to be on the Union side. For good or ill (mostly ill, although probably not as ill as most people think), the Union Army would not have been what it was without Henry Halleck. This was the man who was a senior and eventual overall commander of the Western armies, general in chief of the Union armies for almost two years (which I believe makes him the longest holder of that position during the war), and finally the first chief of staff for the US army. Halleck came into the war as the 4th highest ranked Union officer and never went down from those heights, so it is hard to imagine the Civil War without him playing a role.

Another one that I think is an excellent option for at least 25% rank if not 100% is Ben Butler. Butler was one of the men that most in the North expected to be a great commander in the war. He was the first major general of volunteers appointed by Lincoln, and his Massachusetts regiment were the first of the volunteer troops asked for by Lincoln to reach the capitol. He had a number of important commands, from Fort Monroe to New Orleans to the Bermuda Hundred campaign, and made a crucial impact on the war through his political decisions (seizing fugitive slaves as contraband of war and being a "beast" in New Orleans) and his general military ineptitude in several important commands late in the war. But most of all I think he is worth including because he was so hard to get rid of throughout the war. As a politically connected and highly regarded war Democrat, he recieved important commands despite some considerable failures and could only be removed from these commands when Lincoln reelection was secure. Banks, Sigel, and McClernand are other, similar political generals.

Two more complicated possibilities for the Union are Don Carlos Buell and John Fremont. Fremont had very high rank and prestige early in the war, so it is difficult to imagine the beginning stages without him, but he scuttled his career early enough that I could easily consider him being left out. Buell also left the war fairly early, but he had a fairly large if not necessarily distinguished impact on the early war. He was another one of the highly regarded generals early in the war, and some, like Edward Pollard the originator of the lost cause theory, actually credited him as one of the few great Union generals after the war. I believe Buell should be a hundred percenter as another example of a Union General who had great potential and rose to high command early in the war, but failed to accomplish much.

As for Chamberlain, I'm not entirely sure that he's a critical general officer for the game. He certainly has an incredibly distinguished record of service, I'm just not sure his record of command makes him an indispensable general. His most significant command moment came when he was a Colonel. He only reached the rank of brigadier general (his major general rank was a brevet rank granted at the very end of the war) and never commanded more than a brigade. Despite his very noteworthy courage in command and his presence at significant events like the surrender of the Army of Northern Virginia, I think it would be wrong to include Chamberlain when so many higher ranking generals who played roles in significant battles need to be left out. To illustrate this point, would it make sense for Chamberlain be a hundred percenter based largely on his success at Little Round Top when G.K. Warren, the guy who got Chamberlain and the rest of Vincent's brigade to Little Round Top in the first place—and contributed to the Overland campaign as a corps commander—is left out?

Also, to add some generals that never really achieved an independent command but who served throughout the war (well, until they died) and developed very good records there are John Sedgwick and JB McPherson. Sedgwick was a professional and highly dependable general, if not necessarily aggressive or particularly creative. And McPherson deserves to be a hundred percenter because his skills as a general were and are very highly regarded, and he rose to command of a major union army (Tennessee, although his army was under the direct control of Sherman throughout the Atlanta campaign). In addition, both Sedgwick and McPherson have unique accomplishments among all Civil War general. Sedgwick is a strong contender for the best quote in the war ("They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance") and McPherson is a strong contender for the best middle name in the war (Birdseye). There are a few other examples of union generals who played important roles throughout the war even if they never had a real independent command, most notably Howard, Warren, and Ord.

Anyway, I think that is most of what I have to say right now. My list of 17 Union hundred percenters would be:

Burnside, Meade, Grant, McClellan, Sherman, Sheridan, Hooker, Pope, McDowell, Thomas, Halleck, Buell, Reynolds, Hancock, Butler, McPherson, Sedgwick
Honorable Mentions: Warren, Howard, Banks, Rosecrans, Sigel, Ord, Fremont, Hunter.





Gil R. -> RE: 100-percenters (10/7/2006 12:07:10 PM)

Goodwin,
Thanks -- those are some really interesting comments.




Gil R. -> RE: 100-percenters (10/7/2006 12:10:08 PM)

Okay, I've combed through this thread, as well as some of the others, and have come up with a list of all of the generals who have been proposed for 100-percenter or 25-percenter status. I'll post the list now, but will put up the poll threads on Sunday, so that we can get a discussion going about which would be the best to include in the game on a regular basis. If there's anyone I missed or anyone worth considering but not yet mentioned, please toss his name in the ring.

Union Candidates:
William S. Rosencrans, Joshua L. Chamberlain, John Buford (has cavalry rating), Gouverneur K. Warren, Winfield S. Hancock, John Gibbon, John F. Reynolds, Oliver O. Howard, Nathaniel Lyon, John C. Fremont, Franz Sigel, Hugh Judson Kilpatrick (has cavalry rating), Wesley Merritt (has cavalry rating), Daniel Sickles, Benjamin F. Butler, Nathaniel Banks, Henry Halleck, Don Carlos Buell, James B. McPherson, John Sedgwick (perhaps should have cavalry rating), Edward Ord, David Hunter (perhaps should have cavalry rating), David M. Gregg (has cavalry rating), George A. Custer (has cavalry rating)

Confederate Candidates:
Richard S. Ewell (has cavalry rating), John B. Hood, Louis T. Wigfall, Felix Zollicoffer, J. Johnston Pettigrew, Patrick R. Cleburne, John H. Morgan (has cavalry rating), A.P. Hill, D.H. Hill, Lafayette McLaws, Wade Hampton (has cavalry rating), Joseph Wheeler (has cavalry rating), Richard H. Anderson




ezzler -> RE: 100-percenters (10/7/2006 8:37:52 PM)

for a 25% might consider Fighting Dick Anderson. He was at most of the major actions and thought well of by Lee.
Would rather get him than Wigfall anyday.




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