OK, a real question (Full Version)

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SamCole -> OK, a real question (10/7/2006 4:09:51 PM)

I am playing a PBEM as Japan. My opponent has done something and
I think there is an exploit in it. I just do not know what it is. I am not
that worried about it but I want to understand what advantage he is trying
to gain. As far as I know, we do NOT have a house rule against this.

I have read a number of house rules and two that may be germane are:
1. No more that 6 PT boats in a surface combat TF.
2. No other types of ships in a PT TF except when moving.

Here is the portion of the combat report that I am wondering about:

Night Time Surface Combat, near Tarawa at 84,95

Japanese Ships
CL Tatsuta
DD Mutsuki, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Kisaragi, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Yayoi
DD Mochizuki

Allied Ships
PG Charleston, Shell hits 6
PC Ontario, and is sunk
PC Navajo
PC Seminole, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
PC Reliance, Shell hits 37, and is sunk
PC Tiger
PT PT-20
PT PT-21
PT PT-22
PT PT-23
PT PT-24
PT PT-25
PT PT-27
PT PT-28
PT PT-29
PT PT-30
PT PT-36
PT PT-37
PT PT-38
PT PT-39
PT PT-40
PT PT-42
PT PT-43

So, just what advantage is he trying to gain? I am mostly interested in avoiding
any pitfalls this arrangement might present.



worr -> RE: OK, a real question (10/7/2006 4:26:43 PM)

I'd say you made out pretty good considering the numbers.

I would say 6 in a convoy is a good rule. But the old adage also holds: "Anyone who bests me must be cheating." :)



KDonovan -> RE: OK, a real question (10/7/2006 5:02:31 PM)

by putting non-PT boats with PT's....you TF will engage the only the non-PT boats...allowing the PT-boats to slam torpedo after torpedo into your TF. Major exploit



SamCole -> RE: OK, a real question (10/7/2006 5:07:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KDonovan

by putting non-PT boats with PT's....you TF will engage the only the non-PT boats...allowing the PT-boats to slam torpedo after torpedo into your TF. Major exploit


OK, that helps explain the next night:

Night Time Surface Combat, near Tarawa at 84,95

Japanese Ships
CL Tenryu
CL Yubari
DD Oite, Shell hits 1
DD Hayate
DD Asanagi
DD Yunagi

Allied Ships
PG Charleston, Shell hits 3
PC Navajo, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
PC Tiger
PT PT-20
PT PT-21
PT PT-22
PT PT-23
PT PT-24
PT PT-25
PT PT-27
PT PT-28
PT PT-29
PT PT-30
PT PT-36
PT PT-37
PT PT-38
PT PT-39
PT PT-40
PT PT-42
PT PT-43

So, I will not be able to engage his PTs with a surface combat TF. I will have to figure something
out to counter that. Thank you.



niceguy2005 -> RE: OK, a real question (10/7/2006 5:19:40 PM)

A. I would talk with him about a house rule regarding that. I think its BS, but that's my personal opinion.

B. Use your fighters to strafe his PTs. It will take a while to actually sink them, but its safe. There is no need for your navy to be taking damage. Use reasonably good pilots if you want good results.



2ndACR -> RE: OK, a real question (10/7/2006 6:52:24 PM)

Strafing can lead to sync problems with the replay's.



Rob Brennan UK -> RE: OK, a real question (10/7/2006 7:11:53 PM)

Maybe suggest that when moving PT's they have to be with an AK representing the fact that they are on-board etc. and NO other types of ships period.



Nemo121 -> RE: OK, a real question (10/7/2006 8:47:05 PM)

SamCole,

I have been playing this game a while and never heard that mixing PTs with non-PTs would result in the PTs not being engaged by surface ships so it may just be that you opponent had no idea about this.

I think you have to assume that a bug is unknown and tell your opponent about it. If he says he didn't know about it and doesn't mix PTs again then problem solved. If he mixes PTs again then you walk away from the game. Simple... But you have to assume that, at present, he doens't know this is a bug and you must inform him of it. It'll be easy to tell by his reaction whether or not he knew about it.



stldiver -> RE: OK, a real question (10/7/2006 10:56:40 PM)

Actually, I have never done this, I am playing allied currently, nor would I have have suspected the results (and I won't do it). But I disagree with Nemo on walking from the game. It definatly isn't a game breaking issue, and the amount of time invested to get where you are is not worth throwing it away over a few PT boats. If your opponent is capable and for the most part fair, talk to him and continue on not matter the result. There are things that will be to your advantage and his throughout the campaign, and this will happen with all opponents so definatly don't take the change or walk approach.

This will lead you to having few opponents that will bother to play against you.



RUPD3658 -> RE: OK, a real question (10/8/2006 1:05:21 AM)

The disadvantage to your opponant is that by mixing non-PT boats in with the PT boats your AC will now attack both. PT only TFs can only be straffed by fighters. If they are mixed with any other ships they will be attacked like a regular ship.



SamCole -> RE: OK, a real question (10/8/2006 1:06:29 AM)

thank you all, I will ask that he refrain from this practice and if he doesn't, the game goes forward. It is not a game breaker for me and I will have to work around it.



niceguy2005 -> RE: OK, a real question (10/8/2006 4:25:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

The disadvantage to your opponant is that by mixing non-PT boats in with the PT boats your AC will now attack both. PT only TFs can only be straffed by fighters. If they are mixed with any other ships they will be attacked like a regular ship.

Good observation RUPD. I would test it and if it works go all out against his PT boats. A 200 Sally/Helen strike should do nicely. Then install a rule that prevents this in the future and probably calls for no more than 6 PT boat squadrons. He could still have 50 6 boat squadrons in a hex.



dtravel -> RE: OK, a real question (10/8/2006 5:03:34 AM)

Personally, I think it should be a 12-PT boat per TF limit.  That's what is created when you hit the "create PT" button anyways.  And limiting PTs to 6 per base seems like an over-reaction from people who didn't properly plan for escorts and/or think that the Japanese should be able to overrun everything without serious opposition.



niceguy2005 -> RE: OK, a real question (10/8/2006 5:15:18 AM)

Might be worth doing a little historical research into it if one is considering a house rule.

Edit: IIRC the USN actually had an ongoing debate as to how to use PT boats, if at all. They were largely seen as death traps and useless against war ships. PT commanders of course disagreed and in fact argued for a variety of tactics. These ranged from big group strikes to small group ambush tactics.



dtravel -> RE: OK, a real question (10/8/2006 5:20:30 AM)

Just keep in mind that not every PT in a TF fires its torpedoes.  In my experience one, maybe two, out of a 12 PT TF will fire torpedoes in any given engagement.  So if you're limiting the Allied player to 6 PTs then you're restricting him to only about a 50% chance of them doing anything useful at all.



dtravel -> RE: OK, a real question (10/8/2006 5:30:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Might be worth doing a little historical research into it if one is considering a house rule.

Edit: IIRC the USN actually had an ongoing debate as to how to use PT boats, if at all. They were largely seen as death traps and useless against war ships. PT commanders of course disagreed and in fact argued for a variety of tactics. These ranged from big group strikes to small group ambush tactics.


IIRC they ended up being "barge busters", reducing or even getting rid of the torpedoes all together to make room for more and more guns to shoot up barges and other small craft with. (Something that the game does not simulate. There are no refits to reflect this.)



SamCole -> RE: OK, a real question (10/8/2006 6:15:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

The disadvantage to your opponant is that by mixing non-PT boats in with the PT boats your AC will now attack both. PT only TFs can only be straffed by fighters. If they are mixed with any other ships they will be attacked like a regular ship.


I hadn't really thought about that. I did have this result a few days before:

Day Air attack on TF, near Tarawa at 84,95

Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell: 12 damaged

Allied Ships
PT PT-26, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
PG Onondaga, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-23
PT PT-40

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x G3M Nell launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell launching torpedoes at 200 feet

I always wonder how one PT boat could take 3 torps? [X(] I guess there was not much left.



goodboyladdie -> RE: OK, a real question (10/8/2006 2:44:29 PM)

I often see them hit by 800kg AP bombs during the PH strike - matchwood anyone?



Rob Brennan UK -> RE: OK, a real question (10/8/2006 3:32:22 PM)

I always wonder how one PT boat could take 3 torps?


The only answers i can conclude is " simultaneously" or " bouncing rubble" [:D]



SGT Swanson -> RE: OK, a real question (10/8/2006 10:22:23 PM)

I am SamCole's opponent.  He actually addressed the problem himself by sinking all of the PGs & PCs that were in that TF. 

I had just moved them into that base with a transport TF.  He hadn't taken the base in question as it is still under ANZAC control.

And yes, that is a bug in the game, and I had agreed not to exploit it.



buzzz123 -> RE: OK, a real question (10/9/2006 3:15:00 PM)

quote:

The disadvantage to your opponant is that by mixing non-PT boats in with the PT boats your AC will now attack both. PT only TFs can only be straffed by fighters. If they are mixed with any other ships they will be attacked like a regular ship.


Is this true? I have seen 'PT boat' squadrons of CL, DD, even BC, and my AC refuse to attack at all. A great tactic for 'evacuating' ships from PI in the first few turns. The only time the AC attack is after the squadron has been engaged by a surface fleet and the non pt boat units are damaged and break of into regular surface combat TFs to withdraw. 

Very frustrationg when force Z turns my invasion fleet into scrap metal, and my AC do nothing but smile and wave because the TF is officially 'PT boats'. 



SGT Swanson -> RE: OK, a real question (10/9/2006 4:56:26 PM)

The problem seems to stem from the querty enginge or code that they used to show what ships can be picked from when you click one of the TF Type buttons when creating a new TF at bases.

As for using ACs against PT boats.  We're talking about a bomber that's traveling at around 210 mph trying to drop a 250Kg bomb on a 30' boat that's traveling at 20+ knots (around 30 mph) or better and basically was a Ferrari on water at the time.  As noted, fighters can hit them when strafing at 100' on Naval Attack missions.  



buzzz123 -> RE: OK, a real question (10/10/2006 9:37:05 AM)

So let me get this straight....

Level bombers will ONLY attack a 'PT-boat' TF if their alt is set at 200' or lower - regardless of what ships are ACTUALLY in the TF? So if i create a squadron of 'pt-boats' including BB, BC, CA, CL, DD, etc (but NO actual PT boats) they will be ignored by level bombers unless the alt is 200'. AND, if the bomber altitude IS set to 200' the planes will be obliterated by the AA guns on all the heavies.

And what is more.... my opponent will NEVER know it is officially a PT-boat TF because it does not contain ANY PT-boats - he will just assume his bombers 'chose' not to attack.

Perfect.

Anyone for PBEM???

Now that has got to be THE gamey-est tactic discovered yet.



Onime No Kyo -> RE: OK, a real question (10/10/2006 11:38:05 AM)

Wait a minute here. I thought that it was hard-coded that PT TFs could only contain PT-type ships. You can include PTs in other TF types but only PTs could be in a PT TF. How wrong am I?



pauk -> RE: OK, a real question (10/10/2006 11:33:08 PM)

what i know is:

PTs in PT flotilla will be attacked ONLY with fighers set on naval attack on 100 ft

PTs mixed with other types of ships (let's say : one DD and 5 PTs will be attacked with LBA set on common torpedo altitude and range:)

16 x Betty attacked:

DD Gamey
PT-He he i got you, torp 1, on fire
PT-I worth only one point
PT-I don't care i have 300 PTs in the pool, torp 2, heavy damage (SINKS)
PT-I can repelnish my PTs and sail from base to base
PT-what is so gamey about that???

Onime, yes, you can add PTs to BBs CAs etc....



bradfordkay -> RE: OK, a real question (10/11/2006 8:11:34 AM)

Sgt Swanson - PTs in the US Navy were actaully 70-80' long, not 30'.

What I find interesting is that the opening posts here did not support the assumption that including other ships in the PTs TF will allow the PTs to "slam torpedo after torpedo" unimpeded into enemy shipping. I looks like all those PTS scored a single torpedo hit in two encounters... tempest in a teapot anyone?



SamCole -> RE: OK, a real question (10/11/2006 2:09:01 PM)

Except that my surface combat tfs would not fire any shells at the PTs. So the assumption is that one non PT with a bunch of PTs would allow all of the PTs to be invisable and not targetable.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: OK, a real question (10/11/2006 2:29:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

I always wonder how one PT boat could take 3 torps?


The only answers i can conclude is " simultaneously" or " bouncing rubble" [:D]


The accuracy of ordinance, especially air dropped because of the universally maxed out experience levels of the pilots, is off the scale. That is why PTs are hit (despite the fact that a torpedo would generally run under them harmlessly IRL if they even managd to intersect the PTs path). Then again, JFK managed to get struck by a destroyer so who knows, eh?[8D]



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