RE: Rules Clarification List (Full Version)

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Froonp -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/1/2007 2:47:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames

I have never run Spain as the Allies. We were thinking about aligning them with the CW, but to allow them to take mostly land actions, we are going to align with the Free French.

If France establishes Spain as their new home country, does that make the Spanish units Free French while their country is a major power home country?

If aligning Spain to France, you'll have to roll for spain in the "Other" row when France falls, for Vichy territory allocation, giving you slim chances of keeping it Free France. If aligning Spain to Free France, there is no problem. Normaly this is what should occur, given that France should have fallen before Spain gets to be attacked.
Next, if it goes Free France and that you select it as the new Free French Home Country, Spanish units will still be Minor Country Spanish units controlled by Free France. Only Free French units built by Free France will be Free French units.



Mziln -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/1/2007 3:30:27 AM)

The only way the Allies can align Spain is if the Axis invades it. (I've checked this 3 times there is no mention of Spain under 19.8 Allied minor countries)

Why would the Axis player invade Spain when…

Spain

While Paris is Axis controlled, a neutral Spain must supply Germany with 1 resource a turn.



Why would the Axis player invade Spain when they could align it?

Spain

An Axis major power can declare that Spain is aligning with it during any Axis declaration of war step if Spain is neutral and a unit from that Axis major power occupies Gibraltar. Once aligned, Gibraltar becomes part of the Spanish home country.



coregames -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/1/2007 3:34:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

The only way the Allies can align Spain is if the Axis invades it.

Why would the Axis player invade Spain when…

Spain

While Paris is Axis controlled, a neutral Spain must supply Germany with 1 resource a turn.

Why would the Axis player invade Spain when they could align it?

Spain

An Axis major power can declare that Spain is aligning with it during any Axis declaration of war step if Spain is neutral and a unit from that Axis major power occupies Gibraltar. Once aligned, Gibraltar becomes part of the Spanish home country.



The Axis would declare war on Spain if they wanted Gibralter, and decided that their best chance at it would be through Spain.



Mziln -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/1/2007 3:48:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames

I have never run Spain as the Allies. We were thinking about aligning them with the CW, but to allow them to take mostly land actions, we are going to align with the Free French.

If France establishes Spain as their new home country, does that make the Spanish units Free French while their country is a major power home country?


Please, show me in your statement where the Allies decided that the Axis were invading Spain for Gibralter.



coregames -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/1/2007 3:52:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

If aligning Spain to France, you'll have to roll for spain in the "Other" row when France falls, for Vichy territory allocation, giving you slim chances of keeping it Free France. If aligning Spain to Free France, there is no problem. Normaly this is what should occur, given that France should have fallen before Spain gets to be attacked.
Next, if it goes Free France and that you select it as the new Free French Home Country, Spanish units will still be Minor Country Spanish units controlled by Free France. Only Free French units built by Free France will be Free French units.


My question was more hypothetical, since in our game, Free France is based in the Belgian Congo and can't move their government now. Granted, if the Axis DoW's Spain first, and they align with an unconquered France, and only then does the Axis establish Vichy, Spain would have to be rolled for. If France is Vichied or conquered first, Spain would not have to roll, since all subsequent territorial gains go to the Free French.

My question was directed to the status of Spanish troops if France moves their home country to Spain; do they get to cooperate with the U.S., as French troops? Or are they still minor country troops, even though their country is now a major power home country?



Mziln -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/1/2007 4:01:20 AM)

18.1 Who can co-operate

3.  Units from a minor country (Spain) co-operate with units from its controlling major power (France, Free France, or Vichy) or minor country.
7.  Commonwealth and Free French units co-operate.
8.  US and (non-Vichy) French units co-operate once the USA is at war with Germany and Italy
10. Vichy French units do not co-operate with any major power.

Being a French home country doesn't make Spain french.



coregames -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/1/2007 4:04:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

Please, show me in your statement where the Allies decided that the Axis were invading Spain for Gibralter.

Gibralter is the only reason the Axis would attack Spain. I guess I assumed that was implied, sorry if I wasn't clear about that. We know they are going to attack Spain, because the corridor of Metropolitan France north of Bayonne (minus two hexes, Bayonne and the one north of it) is packed full of Axis troops (10 corps at least). They tried to conquer France outright, to skip the extra US entry hit and to prevent the French from cooperating with the CW. We held out in Toulouse with some CW help, forcing the Vichy. Now they have to collapse Vichy just to get more than one hex on Bayonne, and their job is that much harder.



coregames -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/1/2007 4:08:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

Being a French home country doesn't make Spain french.


In this case, Spain would not be a French home country, it would be the French home country, and thus the home country of a major power. Might that affect things?



Mziln -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/1/2007 5:45:19 AM)

18.1 Who can co-operate 

1.   Units from the same major power co-operate with each other (even if they are from different countries - e.g. Australian and Indian units).
2.   Units from the same minor country co-operate with each other.
3.   Units from a minor country (Spain) co-operate with units from its controlling major power (France, Free France, or Vichy) or minor country.
4.   Units from a major power don’t co-operate with units from a minor country aligned with another major power.
5.   Units from one minor country don’t co-operate with units from another minor country, even if both are aligned with the same major power.
6.   US and Commonwealth units co-operate provided neither is neutral.
7.   Commonwealth and Free French units co-operate.
8.   US and (non-Vichy) French units co-operate once the USA is at war with Germany and Italy.
9.   German and Italian units co-operate if neither is neutral.
10. Vichy French units do not co-operate with any major power.
11. Units controlled by a neutral major power don’t co-operate with units from, or controlled by, another major power.
12. Units from a liberated major power co-operate with units from the major power that liberated it.
13. Chinese nationalist and communist units don’t co-operate.
14. Partisans co-operate with units from their own country only. Chinese partisans only co-operate with Chinese communist units.

No other units co-operate. As an exception to the above, units of a liberated major power never co-operate with units of a major power that refused to return territory on liberation (see 13.7.5).

AfA option 10: The Italian AOI territorial can co-operate with all other Italian territorials (see 22.4.5).


Being THE French home country doesn't make Spain french.



paulderynck -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/1/2007 7:24:36 AM)

Where in RAW does it say you can voluntarily move your home country?



Froonp -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/1/2007 10:37:16 AM)

quote:

My question was directed to the status of Spanish troops if France moves their home country to Spain; do they get to cooperate with the U.S., as French troops? Or are they still minor country troops, even though their country is now a major power home country?

They are Minor Country units aligned to a major power so they do not cooperate with other major Powers.



Froonp -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/1/2007 10:38:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Where in RAW does it say you can voluntarily move your home country?

You can't.
You can only when the home country is conquered.



coregames -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/1/2007 10:45:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Where in RAW does it say you can voluntarily move your home country?


I don't think I implied that you can move your home country at any time; this was all in the context of conquest and Vichy.

13.7.1
Incomplete conquest

Merely conquering a major power or minor country doesn’t mean it is out of the game. That only happens when it is completely conquered (see below). Until then, it fights on with its remaining units.

and later in the same rule..

Now choose a new home country for the units of the conquered home country... Other conquered major power home countries (and Commonwealth if you want), can pick any aligned minor home country.



coregames -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/1/2007 10:51:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
They are Minor Country units aligned to a major power so they do not cooperate with other major Powers.

That is the way I interpret the rules as well, but I thought it was interesting from a devil's advocate point of view.



c92nichj -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/7/2007 8:04:11 PM)

Can you Air transport an out of supply unit?

Cannot see anything that prevents it and I want to geta unit out of harms way.




Mziln -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/7/2007 10:16:38 PM)

2.4.3 Out of supply

Land units

A land unit that is out of supply:
ï       can’t attack;
ï       must be turned face-down if you move it (even by naval transport or air transport);
ï       defends with 1 combat factor if it is a face-down division (see 22.4.1) or non-white print unit, 3 if it is a face-down white print unit (face-up units defend with their normal strength); and
ï       option 13: can’t provide HQ support (see 11.16.3).

Out of supply land units still have their normal movement allowance and still exert a ZOC.

Aircraft units

Aircraft units that are out of supply can only fly rebase missions.



c92nichj -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/7/2007 10:52:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

2.4.3 Out of supply

Land units

A land unit that is out of supply:
ï       can’t attack;
ï       must be turned face-down if you move it (even by naval transport or air transport);
ï       defends with 1 combat factor if it is a face-down division (see 22.4.1) or non-white print unit, 3 if it is a face-down white print unit (face-up units defend with their normal strength); and
ï       option 13: can’t provide HQ support (see 11.16.3).

Out of supply land units still have their normal movement allowance and still exert a ZOC.

Aircraft units

Aircraft units that are out of supply can only fly rebase missions.

The ATR is on supply only the land unit that is OOS. Unit cannot be turned facedown as it allready is though



Froonp -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/7/2007 11:13:54 PM)

If land unit is out of supply, it can be transported as Mzlin pointed out, but if it is also face-down it is stuck where it is.
Being face-down and out of supply is nearly hopelessness in WiF [:D]



c92nichj -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/8/2007 12:07:05 AM)

But it doesnt say in the ATR section that the unit has to be faceup.



Froonp -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/8/2007 12:32:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

But it doesnt say in the ATR section that the unit has to be faceup.

11.12 does not say it, but the 10.2 rule says that :
**********************************
Moving a land unit during the land movement (see 11.11), air transport (see 11.12), debarkation (see 11.13), invasion (see 11.14) or paradrop (see 11.15) step counts as a land move.
**********************************

11.11 add that "Only face-up land units can make a land move".
Thus face-down land units cannot be picked by an ATR to be transported somewhere else.



Mziln -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/8/2007 3:42:21 AM)

Or
 
11.12 Air transport (2 sentences above The transport)
 
Each air transport mission you attempt counts as 1 land move as well as 1 aircraft mission.



c92nichj -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/8/2007 3:02:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
11.12 does not say it, but the 10.2 rule says that :
**********************************
Moving a land unit during the land movement (see 11.11), air transport (see 11.12), debarkation (see 11.13), invasion (see 11.14) or paradrop (see 11.15) step counts as a land move.
**********************************

11.11 add that "Only face-up land units can make a land move".
Thus face-down land units cannot be picked by an ATR to be transported somewhere else.


Ok thanks for the help, I thought the counts as a land move was only for action limits.



mmn -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/15/2007 8:46:34 AM)

In a game I'm currently participitating a situation arose which our group felt needed to be clarified.
Here is the question and Mr. Rinscheidts answer:

Regards,
Morten

----clarification----
> The situation is the following:
> CW has invaded and incompletely conquered Portugal (Portugal was
> aligned to Italy). Later Germany has taken control of Lisbon.
>
> Germany does not want to liberate Portugal. Instead they wish to cede
> control of the hexes to Portugal so that Lisbon will become a
secondary
> supply source for Italy (since Portugal is aligned to Italy).
>
> The questions are:
> - Is this legal according to RaW?

--->>> Yes.

> - Is this the correct outcome (meaning: Lisbon does become a
secondary
> supply source for Italy) following the described events?

--->>> Yes.

> - Can Italy afterwards liberate Portugal or will Portugal remain
"red"
> for partisan purposes?

--->>> Italy: no, PART: yes.
---/clarification----



Froonp -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/15/2007 11:15:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mmn

In a game I'm currently participitating a situation arose which our group felt needed to be clarified.
Here is the question and Mr. Rinscheidts answer:

Regards,
Morten

----clarification----
> The situation is the following:
> CW has invaded and incompletely conquered Portugal (Portugal was
> aligned to Italy). Later Germany has taken control of Lisbon.
>
> Germany does not want to liberate Portugal. Instead they wish to cede
> control of the hexes to Portugal so that Lisbon will become a
secondary
> supply source for Italy (since Portugal is aligned to Italy).
>
> The questions are:
> - Is this legal according to RaW?

--->>> Yes.

I was surprised by this answer, and looked at the rules.

Quote :
*****************************************************
13.7.5 Liberation
(...)
You can choose not to liberate a country that could be liberated. If you do that, the country suffers the effects of partisans as if it were marked in red on the Partisan table, until it is liberated (see 13.1, Option 46).

(...)
Reversion
You can return a hex or minor country you control to the major power that controlled it in 1939 during any liberation step. You may revert Chinese hexes to either the Communists or Nationalists. You can also return control of a minor country hex to that minor country. You can only return hexes or minor countries to a major power or minor country that is on your side and is not currently completely conquered.
*****************************************************

So it seems to be right, to refuse to liberate, and to revert Portugal to Italy, as Italy was the Major Power controlling Portugal when the CW attacked it.


quote:

> - Is this the correct outcome (meaning: Lisbon does become a
secondary
> supply source for Italy) following the described events?

--->>> Yes.

> - Can Italy afterwards liberate Portugal or will Portugal remain
"red"
> for partisan purposes?

--->>> Italy: no, PART: yes.

Here I wonder why Italy could not choose to liberate Portugal.

*****************************************************
13.7.5 Liberation
(...)
(...) the major power controlling its capital can liberate it during the peace step if that major power is from the other side to the major power that conquered it
*****************************************************
So, Morten, could you ask Ruediger, given what I quoted from 13.7.5, why Italy could not liberate Portugal in a future Liberation step ?



Froonp -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/15/2007 12:34:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mmn
> Germany does not want to liberate Portugal. Instead they wish to cede
> control of the hexes to Portugal so that Lisbon will become a secondary
> supply source for Italy (since Portugal is aligned to Italy).

Also I wondered about this.
Is Lisbon, in the case Germany liberates it, a secondary supply source to Italian unit, or not.
The answer is, it is not.

Quote :
*********************************************
2.4.2 Tracing supply
A secondary supply source for a unit is:
ï an HQ the unit co-operates with (see 18.1); or
ï the capital city of a minor country controlled by the unit’s major power; or
ï the capital city of a major power, or a minor country, conquered by the unit’s major power, or by a major power the unit co-operates with.
*********************************************
A Capital of a Minor Country Aligned to Germany (Portugal becomes aligned to Germany if Germany liberates it) is not a supply source for Italian units.

This issue was clear to me in the case of other countries, for example Rumania / Italy, but I had to think for this one.

I think that the MWiF game should provide this information to the player, when it prompt him to take such an important decision. Example :
Germany, Do you want to Liberate Portugal ?
- If you do, it will be aligned to you, and you will incorporate its force pool into yours, and its capital will be a secondary supply source for Germany.
- If you don't, it will become a red partisan country, and you will still be able to revert it to its original controlling Major Power.

Well, my 2 cents...



Chaylaton -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/16/2007 1:33:49 AM)

A question I have on the Ukraine option for Germany. If I were dumb enought to use an O chit on forming the state of Ukraine: 1) I would do this so there would be a chunk of land I wouldn't have to garrison on my advance forward and 2) I could add advanced units to my force pool and 3) maybe give some partison difficulty to the Russians. So that leads me to my question Ukraine does not appear on the Partison chart but if Ukraine is formed does it take the place of one of the; I think, not looking at it, four appearances of Russia on the chart?

Chaylaton



Frederyck -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/16/2007 9:30:04 AM)

From RAW7m

19.12 The Ukraine (Option 62)

Instead, whenever a roll for partisans in the Soviet Union is called for, you also make a separate roll for partisans in The Ukraine. The partisan number in the Ukraine is 10 and only affects enemy major powers (i.e. equivalent to the green partisans on the Partisan table).

My emphasis added! [:)]



mmn -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/16/2007 9:58:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: mmn

In a game I'm currently participitating a situation arose which our group felt needed to be clarified.
Here is the question and Mr. Rinscheidts answer:

Regards,
Morten

----clarification----
> The situation is the following:
> CW has invaded and incompletely conquered Portugal (Portugal was
> aligned to Italy). Later Germany has taken control of Lisbon.
>
> Germany does not want to liberate Portugal. Instead they wish to cede
> control of the hexes to Portugal so that Lisbon will become a
secondary
> supply source for Italy (since Portugal is aligned to Italy).
>
> The questions are:
> - Is this legal according to RaW?

--->>> Yes.

I was surprised by this answer, and looked at the rules.

Quote :
*****************************************************
13.7.5 Liberation
(...)
You can choose not to liberate a country that could be liberated. If you do that, the country suffers the effects of partisans as if it were marked in red on the Partisan table, until it is liberated (see 13.1, Option 46).

(...)
Reversion
You can return a hex or minor country you control to the major power that controlled it in 1939 during any liberation step. You may revert Chinese hexes to either the Communists or Nationalists. You can also return control of a minor country hex to that minor country. You can only return hexes or minor countries to a major power or minor country that is on your side and is not currently completely conquered.
*****************************************************

So it seems to be right, to refuse to liberate, and to revert Portugal to Italy, as Italy was the Major Power controlling Portugal when the CW attacked it.

In my group we had a lengthy discussion about wether Portugal should be reverted as a minor (which would be prohibited because Portugal has no 1939-controlling MP) or if it should be reverted as minor country hexes. This prompted the question to Ruediger.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

> - Is this the correct outcome (meaning: Lisbon does become a
secondary
> supply source for Italy) following the described events?

--->>> Yes.

> - Can Italy afterwards liberate Portugal or will Portugal remain
"red"
> for partisan purposes?

--->>> Italy: no, PART: yes.

Here I wonder why Italy could not choose to liberate Portugal.



This part actually made sense to me. Germany reverts the hexes to Portugal (controlled by Italy) and even though Italy controls Portugal it is Portugal that controls the hexes. An Italian liberation would thus require Italy to return hexes to Portugal which Portugal already owns.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

*****************************************************
13.7.5 Liberation
(...)
(...) the major power controlling its capital can liberate it during the peace step if that major power is from the other side to the major power that conquered it
*****************************************************
So, Morten, could you ask Ruediger, given what I quoted from 13.7.5, why Italy could not liberate Portugal in a future Liberation step ?



I'll do that.

By the way - On which partisan table does Portugal show up?



Froonp -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/16/2007 10:53:45 AM)

quote:

By the way - On which partisan table does Portugal show up?

It doesn't appear on the WiF FE Partisan table.
It only appear on the PatiF Partisan Table.
A shame [:D] !



paulderynck -> RE: Rules Clarification List (4/17/2007 5:12:23 AM)

Here is one I posted on the WiF list and it is currently running 3 to 2 as a "Yes".

Situation: Turkey is aligned with Germany. In Turkey, CW units are attacking a German mountain corps which has a flipped Italian ATR in its hex. May Turkish planes provide Ground Support?

There are 2 points in RAW section 18 which seem to apply.
Non-cooperating units cannot:
1. stack in the same hex, at any time that stacking limits apply
2. be committed to any combat or mission that the other unit is, or will be, involved in this step.

However, there are no stacking limits for either ground supporting air units and their escorts nor for these same units in combination with the units they are supporting.

So it comes down to the meaning of "involved". The Italian ATR is not involved in defending the hex but it could be destroyed if the CW units advance after combat.



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