RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land

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jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/3/2008 8:55:16 AM)
PM sent to Orm. There is always room for more writers! [:D]

wosung -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/6/2008 6:38:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets quote: ORIGINAL: Orm quote: ORIGINAL: capitan [image]local://upfiles/21761/27A50CDAA16F4518992A98A81672E07B.jpg[/image] This looks very nice. But it also made me think about the size of the Belgian army and I couldn't get the math to add. So what I have to say is in no way critisism on the writeup but more a question about math. With these exellent writeups it becomes easy to compare the units of WIF with the historical OOB (Order Of Battle) and numbers of soldiers in the units. In WIF Belgium has 3 corps and 1 reserve corps. The writeup says the "1st corps" has 2 divisions and some 14000 men. Since I haven't seen the writeup for the other corps I asume for this argument that they have 3 divisions each and 22000 soldiers. That gives the entire Belgian WIF army 11 divisions with 80000 men including the reserve. Oxfords Companion to WWII says the Belgian field army had 22 divisions with some 600000 men in may 1940 (fully mobilized). I verified those numbers with another source. That makes a discrepancy between WIF and history that becomes very obvious with a small army like Belgium and such nice unit writeups. Should this be mentioned somewhere? Perhaps a small writeup on each minor country? Maybe an information screen could be added to most minor countries in the declaration of war step that included the historical date the minor entered the war and the status at that point of its armed forces. -Orm Does Oxford Companion give any details about the 22 divisions and 600,000 men, or just the total counts? Belgian Army had a peace time strength of 100.000 men. The mentioned corps strength of some 14.000 men must be peace time strength. All those Belgian div. strengths mentioned in the unit write-ups must be peace time strengthes: A fully mobilized Belgian div. alone fielded 3 regiments with 3.000 men each. Plus divisional arty, supply, etc. personnel, this easily could have amounted to some 15.000 men per div. According to another source a Belgian div had some 10.000 men. As mentioned above a Belgian corps fielded 2 divs. Thus a corps must have numbered 20.000 to 30.000 men, plus/including corps troops. 600.000 men divided to 22 divs would have amounted to some 27.000 men per div. This is obviously to much per div. As for the discrepancy between 27.000 and 10.000 to 15.000 men per div.: The calculation about 600.000 men divided to 22 divs. doesen't take into account: 1. the corps troops (at least several thousand men) and Army supply troops 2. that the 600.000 mobilization strength might include all armed forces, including air force (some 234 planes, 180 operational) and the very small navy. Belgian mobilization had begun on 25 Aug. 1939, so in May 1940 they must have been fully mobilized. Regards Sources: Andrew Mollow, The armed forces of WW2, p. 48-51. The Oxford companion to WW2, p.121. John Ellis, WW2, A statistical survey, p. 201.

meisterchow -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/7/2008 3:09:50 PM)
As I mentioned before, I found information showing 9 Corps for the Belgians as opposed to the three in WiF. That accounts for a lot more men, before you hit the air corps and those involved in support (supply services, etc.).

wosung -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/7/2008 4:14:21 PM)
Yeah, I came up with 8 corps (1.-7., plus Cav. Corps) with 22 Divs altogether (7. Corps = Ardennes Rifle Corps in Namur). There were 3 Army Corps Areas (Brussels, Antwerp, Ličge). Perhaps only these were counted?! But think, it's like: 22 Belgian divs ammount to 3 WIF corps, due to 7 Divs of a WIF minor Country are counted as one Minor Country corps. Anyway, who am I to wifzen this OOB? I'm critical to it myself. OOB issues seem to be a frequent topic on WIF forums. If you take a closer look at WIFS OOb you'll find lots of ahistorical play-balancing, national generic corps/armies (based on total divs. and national combat performance) and even hypothetical units. All this simply means that not every single corps/army of WW2 is represented in WIF. Regards

meisterchow -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/7/2008 8:31:51 PM)
Exactly.

michaelbaldur -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/9/2008 10:10:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wosung quote: ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets quote: ORIGINAL: Orm quote: ORIGINAL: capitan [image]local://upfiles/21761/27A50CDAA16F4518992A98A81672E07B.jpg[/image] This looks very nice. But it also made me think about the size of the Belgian army and I couldn't get the math to add. So what I have to say is in no way critisism on the writeup but more a question about math. With these exellent writeups it becomes easy to compare the units of WIF with the historical OOB (Order Of Battle) and numbers of soldiers in the units. In WIF Belgium has 3 corps and 1 reserve corps. The writeup says the "1st corps" has 2 divisions and some 14000 men. Since I haven't seen the writeup for the other corps I asume for this argument that they have 3 divisions each and 22000 soldiers. That gives the entire Belgian WIF army 11 divisions with 80000 men including the reserve. Oxfords Companion to WWII says the Belgian field army had 22 divisions with some 600000 men in may 1940 (fully mobilized). I verified those numbers with another source. That makes a discrepancy between WIF and history that becomes very obvious with a small army like Belgium and such nice unit writeups. Should this be mentioned somewhere? Perhaps a small writeup on each minor country? Maybe an information screen could be added to most minor countries in the declaration of war step that included the historical date the minor entered the war and the status at that point of its armed forces. -Orm Does Oxford Companion give any details about the 22 divisions and 600,000 men, or just the total counts? Belgian Army had a peace time strength of 100.000 men. The mentioned corps strength of some 14.000 men must be peace time strength. All those Belgian div. strengths mentioned in the unit write-ups must be peace time strengthes: A fully mobilized Belgian div. alone fielded 3 regiments with 3.000 men each. Plus divisional arty, supply, etc. personnel, this easily could have amounted to some 15.000 men per div. According to another source a Belgian div had some 10.000 men. As mentioned above a Belgian corps fielded 2 divs. Thus a corps must have numbered 20.000 to 30.000 men, plus/including corps troops. 600.000 men divided to 22 divs would have amounted to some 27.000 men per div. This is obviously to much per div. As for the discrepancy between 27.000 and 10.000 to 15.000 men per div.: The calculation about 600.000 men divided to 22 divs. doesen't take into account: 1. the corps troops (at least several thousand men) and Army supply troops 2. that the 600.000 mobilization strength might include all armed forces, including air force (some 234 planes, 180 operational) and the very small navy. Belgian mobilization had begun on 25 Aug. 1939, so in May 1940 they must have been fully mobilized. Regards Sources: Andrew Mollow, The armed forces of WW2, p. 48-51. The Oxford companion to WW2, p.121. John Ellis, WW2, A statistical survey, p. 201. what about the army in congo .... are they part of the 600.000 ...

wosung -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/9/2008 10:22:53 AM)
Good question. But I don't think, that the Congo Forces are counted with the metropolitan forces. Belgian Congo forces (Force Publique) composed of 40.000 men, probably the usual native-metropolitan mixture of a late colonial force, whose main responsibility wasn't militarily but those of an internal security force. Nevertheless, the Force Publique participated in the East African Campaign. Oh and, after the allied liberation of Belgium, a new Belgian Army was constituted which fielded some 75.000 men during the last months of WW. Source: The Oxford companion of WW2, P. 120. Regards

jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/9/2008 3:47:20 PM)
When I get back I will post the screenshot for the Belgian Congo Forces

Grymme -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/9/2008 8:19:07 PM)
Estimations of the size of belgian army in spring 1940 varies between 350-750 000 in total personel. One of the most trustworthy sources say that the belgian army in the spring of 1940 was organized in 6 1st grade INF division, 6 Reserve INF division, 2 Ardenne jaegerdivisions and 4 light divisions. The Jaeger divisions where the same strenght as a regular INF division but also had a weak motorized artillery division. The light divisions consisted of 1 bicycleregiment and 2 motorcycleregiments each. The whole field force of the belgian army is accounted as at least 350 000 personel. This means that reserves, covertroops, fortresstroops and so on could account for at most 400 000 manpower. Source:Second World War vol2 page 753ff (this is a 7 volume series of books written during the war [in swedish]).

wosung -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/9/2008 9:34:33 PM)
Wow, we all are collecting quite a bit info about Belgian Army! Regards

michaelbaldur -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/10/2008 2:33:36 AM)
you should read .......osprey - fortress 030 - eben emael really nice book ...

michaelbaldur -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/10/2008 2:37:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wosung Good question. But I don't think, that the Congo Forces are counted with the metropolitan forces. Belgian Congo forces (Force Publique) composed of 40.000 men, probably the usual native-metropolitan mixture of a late colonial force, whose main responsibility wasn't militarily but those of an internal security force. Nevertheless, the Force Publique participated in the East African Campaign. Oh and, after the allied liberation of Belgium, a new Belgian Army was constituted which fielded some 75.000 men during the last months of WW. Source: The Oxford companion of WW2, P. 120. Regards france had alot of africa units in the home defence army .... dont think that belgium was very diffent ...

Sabre21 -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/18/2008 2:24:43 PM)
Hey everyone To help alleviate a small amount of the stress on Steve, I've volunteered to coordinate the Naval write-ups. I will maintain a master list and provide a copy to Steve on a regular basis. It looks like about half of the list of 1112 is either finished or actively being worked on. So for those of you that are working on the naval write-ups, if you could pass them on to me once completed so I can get them onto the master list. Sabre

Froonp -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/18/2008 9:33:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sabre21 Hey everyone To help alleviate a small amount of the stress on Steve, I've volunteered to coordinate the Naval write-ups. I will maintain a master list and provide a copy to Steve on a regular basis. It looks like about half of the list of 1112 is either finished or actively being worked on. So for those of you that are working on the naval write-ups, if you could pass them on to me once completed so I can get them onto the master list. Sabre Good. You did a great job for the Air units writeups, I'm happy you propose that. I hope Steve will agree.

Sabre21 -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/18/2008 11:30:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp quote: ORIGINAL: Sabre21 Hey everyone To help alleviate a small amount of the stress on Steve, I've volunteered to coordinate the Naval write-ups. I will maintain a master list and provide a copy to Steve on a regular basis. It looks like about half of the list of 1112 is either finished or actively being worked on. So for those of you that are working on the naval write-ups, if you could pass them on to me once completed so I can get them onto the master list. Sabre Good. You did a great job for the Air units writeups, I'm happy you propose that. I hope Steve will agree. Actually Steve proposed it and for better or worse I accepted. Hmm..something doesn't sound right about that last statement[:D] Sabre

Froonp -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/18/2008 11:59:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sabre21 quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp Good. You did a great job for the Air units writeups, I'm happy you propose that. I hope Steve will agree. Actually Steve proposed it and for better or worse I accepted. Hmm..something doesn't sound right about that last statement[:D] Sabre No problems for me if you and Steve get to Marry. You seem to be two good chaps, so this will be fun to be invited !

warspite1 -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/19/2008 12:05:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp quote: ORIGINAL: Sabre21 quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp Good. You did a great job for the Air units writeups, I'm happy you propose that. I hope Steve will agree. Actually Steve proposed it and for better or worse I accepted. Hmm..something doesn't sound right about that last statement[:D] Sabre No problems for me if you and Steve get to Marry. You seem to be two good chaps, so this will be fun to be invited ! Guys - I`m sure you`re both consenting adults and can do what you like. Just one thing though - NO HONEYMOON UNTIL THIS GAME IS FINISHED!! [:-]

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/19/2008 2:39:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp quote: ORIGINAL: Sabre21 quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp Good. You did a great job for the Air units writeups, I'm happy you propose that. I hope Steve will agree. Actually Steve proposed it and for better or worse I accepted. Hmm..something doesn't sound right about that last statement[:D] Sabre No problems for me if you and Steve get to Marry. You seem to be two good chaps, so this will be fun to be invited ! Guys - I`m sure you`re both consenting adults and can do what you like. Just one thing though - NO HONEYMOON UNTIL THIS GAME IS FINISHED!! [:-] One difficulty is that my wife and I had our 37th wedding anniversary yesterday - to be celebrated this evening. I still need to go out and buy 37 roses: 12 red, 12 pink, 12 yellow, and 1 white. The date is easy to remember: 7/17/71 (or 17/7/71 for Europeans).

Sabre21 -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/19/2008 3:01:15 AM)
I figured that would bring on a rash of comments from the peanut gallery [:D] Well had I stayed married..and stayed alive and sane during that time..I would be coming up on my 32nd.. Sabre PS: Gratz for making it that far Steve..hopefully you'll last another 37.

Orm -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/26/2008 1:50:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: capitan PM sent to Orm. There is always room for more writers! [:D] I mailed you 2 weeks ago and I got no reply. I send you a PM with my email. -Orm

jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/26/2008 1:56:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Orm quote: ORIGINAL: capitan PM sent to Orm. There is always room for more writers! [:D] I mailed you 2 weeks ago and I got no reply. I send you a PM with my email. -Orm Vacation took hold of me, emailed you just now

Froonp -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (7/26/2008 5:26:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Orm quote: ORIGINAL: capitan PM sent to Orm. There is always room for more writers! [:D] I mailed you 2 weeks ago and I got no reply. I send you a PM with my email. -Orm Your avatar has white corners. Here is one with transparent corners. Please keep it GIF so that it keeps the good corners. [image]local://upfiles/10447/5EFD9889B4904013972B319FAD30BC17.gif[/image]

jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (8/5/2008 1:59:11 PM)
Status-report on Landunits (all countries): 785 out of 1062 units done (74%) DONE: Siberian Russia 4/4 (Adam) DONE! Finland 8/8 (Adam) DONE! Rumania 10/10 (Adam) DONE! Mongolia 1/1 (Adam) DONE! Switzerland 6/6 (Adam) DONE! Phillipines 1/1 (Adam) DONE! Afghanistan 2/2 (Adam) DONE! Australia 8/8 (Michaelbaldur) DONE! New Zeeland 3/3 (Michaelbaldur) DONE! South Africa 5/5 (Michaelbaldur) DONE! Denmark 1/1 (Michaelbaldur) DONE! Norway 3/3 (Michaelbaldur) DONE! Poland 14/14 (Michaelbaldur) DONE! AOI 1/1 (Mziln) DONE! Formosa 1/1 (Mziln) DONE! Croatia 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Ecuador 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Peru 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! French Somalia 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Ivory Coast 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! French Sudan 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Middle Congo 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Niger 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Indo-China 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! N. East Indies 2/2 (Capitan) DONE! Belgian Congo 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Saudi Arabia 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Iraq 2/2 (Capitan) DONE! Liberia 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Cameroon 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Gabon 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Madagascar 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Morroco 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Algeria 2/2 (Capitan) DONE! Tunisia 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Syria 2/2 (Capitan) DONE! Sudan 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Nigeria 2/2 (Capitan) DONE! Sierra Leone 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! British Somalialand 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Egypt 2/2 (Capitan) DONE! Kenya 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Uganda 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Tanganyika 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Northern Rhodesia 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Southern Rhodesia 1/1 (Capitan) Palestine 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Aden 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! New Caledonia 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Thailand 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Northern Ireland 1/1 (Capitan) DONE! Burma 2/2 (Capitan) DONE! Sweden 13/13 (Toed) DONE! Ireland 2/2 (bj_rodhe) DONE! Hungary 6/6 (Grisouille) DONE! Bulgaria 3/3 (Grisouille) DONE! France 68/68(Grisouille)DONE Greece 4/4 (Grisouille) DONE! SS-Germany 19/19 (Grisouille) DONE! Netherlands 2/2 (Grisouille) DONE! Yugoslavia 9/9 (Dale) DONE! Bolivia 1/1 (Jeff) DONE! Paraguay 1/1 (Jeff) DONE! Colombia 1/1 (Jeff) DONE! Uruguay 1/1 (Jeff) DONE! Zoya and Tito 2/2 (MarcusWatney) DONE! Communist China 18/18 (Wosung) DONE! Nat. China 38/38 (Wosung) DONE! Belgium 4/4 (Charlie Lewis) DONE! ASSIGNED but NOT DONE: USA 80/99 (Adam) Russia 143/146 (Adam) Ukraine 0/8 (Adam) Korea 0/2 (Wosung) Manchuko 0/4 (Wosung) Italy 37/61 (Jimm) Libya 0/3 (Jimm) Eritrea 0/1 (Jimm) Italian Somalialand 0/2 (Jimm) Germany 92/128 (Capitan) Senegal 1/2 (Capitan) UK 31/57 (Rob) Canada 9/10 (Rob) India 3/13 (Rob) Mexico 0/6 (Jeff) Panama 0/2 (Jeff) Venezuela 0/1 (Jeff) Chile 0/2 (Jeff) Iran/Persia 0/2 (Herulf) Portugal 0/2 (Doug) Turkey 1/13 (Doug) Austria 0/3 (SGT Rice) Ethiopia 1/6 (SGT Rice) UNASSIGNED: Nat. Spain 2/14 Rep. Spain 1/14 Czeckoslovakia 1/15 Japan 65/76 Brasil 0/5 Argentina 0/3 ------------- "NEW UNITS" 16/61 Also the ART (including ART, AA and AT) for all nations is being done by STABILO Anyone who like to pitch in with any of the unassigned countries is welcome to take part! Just send me a PM and I will help you get started! - Capitan

jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (8/5/2008 3:06:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: capitan When I get back I will post the screenshot for the Belgian Congo Forces As promised: [image]local://upfiles/21761/317A7C24F03447E781CEB860BD7990BC.jpg[/image]

Froonp -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (8/5/2008 6:44:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: capitan quote: ORIGINAL: capitan When I get back I will post the screenshot for the Belgian Congo Forces As promised: [image]local://upfiles/21761/317A7C24F03447E781CEB860BD7990BC.jpg[/image] Spelling : beligum instead of belgium, 1st para

jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (8/5/2008 7:15:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp quote: ORIGINAL: capitan quote: ORIGINAL: capitan When I get back I will post the screenshot for the Belgian Congo Forces As promised: [image]local://upfiles/21761/317A7C24F03447E781CEB860BD7990BC.jpg[/image] Spelling : beligum instead of belgium, 1st para Doh! [:)] My misstake unfortunatly... Fixed now! In other news several of my fellow writers are reporting progress and I just recieved batches of ART from Klaus and American corps and divs from Adam. Doug even sent a friend to Turkey to research some of the finer details of Mustafa Kemals army. [:D]

meisterchow -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (8/6/2008 1:51:14 PM)
I did some research on the Argentines and Brazilians but couldn't find information on anything that matched up with WiF Counters. I could provide a general overview of their respective military strengths. Would that be at all useful?

jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (8/6/2008 3:05:08 PM)
Please send me such an overview and I will see what I can dig up on Argentina and Brazil. It is really not easy on the larger countries that did not go to war on any larger scale.

meisterchow -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (8/7/2008 4:23:49 PM)
Between my wife's 40th birthday and some stuff here at work this week is shot. However, I should be able to compile what I've found into something useful next week. :)

Eichenblatt -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (8/18/2008 9:52:59 AM)
Just a quick question - will the (excellent) unit descriptions be available in some sort of archive or similar or will you be required to start a game in order to access the information on the units? I think that it would be great to have some sort of archive accessible from the start page of the game for those that just want to enjoy the graphics and descriptions of the units. Steve et al. - keep up the great work! I am sure that this will be the finest grand strategy wargame of all times! /Dave

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