RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (Full Version)

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jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (3/16/2007 8:40:37 AM)

Good news! Toed (Johan) has finished writing six swedish units so I am going to post one or two of them for your pleasure.

Things are going forward even if not at the pace I would have wished.

- Jesper




jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (3/16/2007 7:43:40 PM)

Thanks to Mziln for volounteering to writing more write-ups. He has yet to pick a country but I am sure he will do a good job.

In a month or so I will cleanse the list on page two of people who are no longer active. So if you are on the list and still want to keep doing write-ups and have not mailed me in a long while please communicate your status. I am aware that some people do research and write little by little and that is fine, I just need to know that things are moving forward.

- Jesper




jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (3/18/2007 3:32:31 PM)

Forza Mziln! A very nice writeup!

[image]local://upfiles/21761/01A8C20A682D44A2A9EB5F10D0D886E1.jpg[/image]




Mziln -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (3/18/2007 3:41:17 PM)

Don't forget:

AOI - Africa Orientale Italiana – Italian East Africa




jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (3/18/2007 3:43:54 PM)

Some statistics:

54 allies units have writeups. That is about 11 percent of the total number of allied landunits.

99 axis units have writeups. That is about 30 percent of the total number of axis landunits.

21 neutral units have writeups. That is about 13 percent of the total number of neutral landunits.

In total we have 174 writeups which amounts to about 17 percent of the total of all landunits




jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (3/18/2007 3:44:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

Don't forget:

AOI - Africa Orientale Italiana – Italian East Africa


Ah I put this in the "header" but I will add it in the actual writeup too.




Mziln -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (3/18/2007 4:12:23 PM)

The Ethiopian and Eritrea units are also part of Italian East Africa.

Italy conquered and occupied Ethiopia in 1935 and eventually created Italian East Africa out of newly-occupied Ethiopia and the Italian colonies of Eritrea and Italian Somaliland. Italian troops in Italian East Africa numbered about 250,000, most of them Local East African askaris recruited by the Italian Army.

Since all the units are Territorials there is no way to invade British Somaliland with them.




Froonp -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (3/18/2007 4:56:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln
The Ethiopian and Eritrea units are also part of Italian East Africa.

Italy conquered and occupied Ethiopia in 1935 and eventually created Italian East Africa out of newly-occupied Ethiopia and the Italian colonies of Eritrea and Italian Somaliland. Italian troops in Italian East Africa numbered about 250,000, most of them Local East African askaris recruited by the Italian Army.

Since all the units are Territorials there is no way to invade British Somaliland with them.

Why is there no way ?
Nothing prevents the Italian Territorials from Italian East Africa to enter British Somaliland.




Mziln -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (3/18/2007 5:52:50 PM)

I doubt Italy will want to spend the production to take British Somaliland.

Combat

Add 1 to your die roll for a land attack against a hex in which the only defending land units are territorials (in addition to any modifier for face-down units). Subtract 1 from your die roll for a land attack if all attacking units are territorials.

=> ~ +2 Non territorials attacking territorials.
=> ~ -2 Territorials attacking non territorials

Movement

In addition to the restrictions on minor units leaving their home country (see 19.4), territorials may only leave their home country if they are controlled by an active major power. For movement purposes, territorial units treat mountain, forest and jungle terrain in their home country as clear. They pay normal movement costs outside their home country.

19.4 Minor country units

Restrictions on use

Minor country units can move and fight outside their home country. However, you can only move a minor country land or aircraft unit outside the home country controlled by the minor, if half or more of its land and aircraft units are currently inside its home country (exception: Rumania becomes a full Axis ally ~ see 19.6.2).




Froonp -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (3/18/2007 6:20:47 PM)

Generaly Berbera is empty, so properly placed TERR can just walk in.
This is common practice IMO.
It is sure that if a CW unit defends Berbera, there is pretty much nothing that the Italian TERR can do, especially because there are chances that they are oos.




Mziln -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (3/18/2007 8:53:06 PM)

True, but the Global War sceanerio shows 2 territorials start in Ethiopia or Italian Somaliland. That would give you a 40% chance of having 2 territorials start in the same home country. And be able to move out of their home country (not counting the AOI unit).




Froonp -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (3/18/2007 9:10:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

True, but the Global War sceanerio shows 2 territorials start in Ethiopia or Italian Somaliland. That would give you a 40% chance of having 2 territorials start in the same home country. And be able to move out of their home country (not counting the AOI unit).

Mzlin, you seem to consider that you need 2 units in a minor country to be able to have one of them leave the country. This is not true.
If a minor country only as 1 unit, it can go out of the country.

Quote (that you quoted yourself above) :
*******************************************
19.4 Minor country units
Restrictions on use
Minor country units can move and fight outside their home country. However, you can only move a minor country land or aircraft unit outside the home country controlled by the minor, if half or more of its land and aircraft units are currently inside its home country (exception: Rumania becomes a full Axis ally ~ see 19.6.2).
*******************************************

So, if you take the case of the country having only 1 unit.
This unit is in the country. At this right moment, there is "half or more of its land and aircraft units are currently inside its home country", because there is one out of a total of one.
So it satisfy the rule and can leave the country.

If you have a country having 2 units.
One is inside , the other is outside. Just before the moment that the unit that is inside begin to move to go outside the country, the rule is satisfied too, because there is 1 outside out of a total of 2.

So we have :
1 total unit --> 1 can go out.
2 total units --> 2 can go out.
3 total units --> 2 can go out.
4 total units --> 3 can go out (when there are 2 out, a 3rd can leave too as the rule is satisfied).
5 total units --> 3 can go out.
6 total units --> 4 can go out (when there are 3 out, a 4th can leave too as the rule is satisfied).
7 total units --> 4 can go out.
etc..




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (3/18/2007 9:53:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln
True, but the Global War sceanerio shows 2 territorials start in Ethiopia or Italian Somaliland. That would give you a 40% chance of having 2 territorials start in the same home country. And be able to move out of their home country (not counting the AOI unit).

Mzlin, you seem to consider that you need 2 units in a minor country to be able to have one of them leave the country. This is not true.
If a minor country only as 1 unit, it can go out of the country.

Quote (that you quoted yourself above) :
*******************************************
19.4 Minor country units
Restrictions on use
Minor country units can move and fight outside their home country. However, you can only move a minor country land or aircraft unit outside the home country controlled by the minor, if half or more of its land and aircraft units are currently inside its home country (exception: Rumania becomes a full Axis ally ~ see 19.6.2).
*******************************************

So, if you take the case of the country having only 1 unit.
This unit is in the country. At this right moment, there is "half or more of its land and aircraft units are currently inside its home country", because there is one out of a total of one.
So it satisfy the rule and can leave the country.

If you have a country having 2 units.
One is inside , the other is outside. Just before the moment that the unit that is inside begin to move to go outside the country, the rule is satisfied too, because there is 1 outside out of a total of 2.

So we have :
1 total unit --> 1 can go out.
2 total units --> 2 can go out.
3 total units --> 2 can go out.
4 total units --> 3 can go out (when there are 2 out, a 3rd can leave too as the rule is satisfied).
5 total units --> 3 can go out.
6 total units --> 4 can go out (when there are 3 out, a 4th can leave too as the rule is satisfied).
7 total units --> 4 can go out.
etc..

Hmm, I need to check how the code handles this.

Your interpretation is certainly correct, but I had read the rule the way Mziln had, which is that you had to leave at least 1/2 the units in-country. This WIF rule is quite unusual.




Frederyck -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (3/18/2007 10:49:32 PM)

This rule is one of those that is most often misunderstood, along with the very very strange ruling about how to get Partisans:

"13.1
You put a partisan unit in the country if the result [of the die roll] is less than or equal to that country’s (modified) partisan number. If it is at least 11 less (my bold face), place 2 partisan units in the country. If it is at least 21 less, place 3 partisan units in the country. If the roll exceeds the partisan number, there is no effect."

It is the "at least 11 or less" that causes problems. If a country's modified partisan value is:
1 -> 10% chance of 1 partisan.
2 -> 20% chance of 1 partisan.
...
9 -> 90% chance of 1 partisan.
10 -> 1 guaranteed partisan. No chance of a second partisan as "at least 11 less" than 10 is -1.
11 -> 1 guaranteed partisan. No chance of a second partisan as "at least 11 less" than 11 is 0 (zero).
12 -> 1 guaranteed partisan. 10% chance of a second partisan as "at least 11 less" than 12 is 1.

The logical progression would (to me) be that you would count "at least 10 less", giving a modified partisan number of 11 a 10% chance of getting 2 partisans and so on, but that is not how the rule is written. Although I do believe that many people play that way.




Froonp -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (3/18/2007 11:06:01 PM)

I believe we always played it the wrong way then.




Frederyck -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (3/18/2007 11:19:59 PM)

We have always house-ruled away the "11" in favour of a "10". It just seems more logical and is probably what is really meant by the rule.




jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (3/29/2007 9:32:44 AM)

Adam has now officially taken on the Russians, even if he has done a lot of work on them earlier. Thanks for taking on this oh so important nation mate. We are awaiting your submissions! [:)]




jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (4/22/2007 2:54:42 PM)

An update on the write-ups

People are sporadically sending me some write-ups and some new blood has volounteered so things are moving along, albeit quite slowly. Adam is doing his usual swell job and the other day I recieved 8 more write-ups on the Russians (plus some edits on previous submissions).

In total there are 182 write-ups for units out of 999 in total. It is fun to write but very time-consuming as information is scarce at best for many countries. If you feel like pitching in please have a look at page 2 in this thread for an up to date list of countries available.




jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (4/22/2007 3:41:42 PM)

I missed to add the 8 new units Toed to the page 2 update. I will post a sceenshot of a swede and a russian later on.

10 more write-ups to hit the magic number 200![:D]




jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (4/22/2007 5:25:47 PM)

Thanks MichaelBaldur for finishing the Danish! :-) 




jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (4/22/2007 8:22:25 PM)

As promised some screenies (but the russians will have to wait since I am having some trouble with the layout)



[image]local://upfiles/21761/B293DEF8BA2F4F1F93E93E69B89686AE.jpg[/image]




jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (4/22/2007 8:23:07 PM)

More swedes

[image]local://upfiles/21761/B47DC451C10545BEAD7AC5821A3F5B70.jpg[/image]




jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (4/22/2007 8:24:00 PM)

And finally the single dane



[image]local://upfiles/21761/AA2E6D88A5194C77A107C5373357AFA2.jpg[/image]




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (4/22/2007 11:39:33 PM)

Lovely.




Neilster -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (4/23/2007 3:13:38 AM)

It should be "scuttled their ships", not "scuttled there ships"

Cheers, Neilster




Walloc -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (4/23/2007 8:07:39 AM)

A few danish "ships" at sea actually made it to Sweden as a minor note.

Kind regards,

Rasmus




paulderynck -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (4/24/2007 12:49:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frederyck

This rule is one of those that is most often misunderstood, along with the very very strange ruling about how to get Partisans:

"13.1
You put a partisan unit in the country if the result [of the die roll] is less than or equal to that country’s (modified) partisan number. If it is at least 11 less (my bold face), place 2 partisan units in the country. If it is at least 21 less, place 3 partisan units in the country. If the roll exceeds the partisan number, there is no effect."

It is the "at least 11 or less" that causes problems. If a country's modified partisan value is:
1 -> 10% chance of 1 partisan.
2 -> 20% chance of 1 partisan.
...
9 -> 90% chance of 1 partisan.
10 -> 1 guaranteed partisan. No chance of a second partisan as "at least 11 less" than 10 is -1.
11 -> 1 guaranteed partisan. No chance of a second partisan as "at least 11 less" than 11 is 0 (zero).
12 -> 1 guaranteed partisan. 10% chance of a second partisan as "at least 11 less" than 12 is 1.

The logical progression would (to me) be that you would count "at least 10 less", giving a modified partisan number of 11 a 10% chance of getting 2 partisans and so on, but that is not how the rule is written. Although I do believe that many people play that way.


I agree that its written confusingly, but I don't get your interpretation of "at least 11 less". In reading RAW, I conclude the word "modified" in "modified partisan number" is only in reference to halving the partisan number for an unconquered country at war the same year. The addition for the garrison and subtraction for already existing partisans are applied to the partisan die roll - not the partisan number.

A recent example from our game in progress: USSR came up as subject to partisans. It is not the first year of war involving the USSR, so the (modified) Partisan Number is 30. One partisan was already there and the Axis garrison was 19. A '1' was rolled. Add 19, subtract 1 yields a die roll of 19. 19 is at least 11 less than 30 so the Russians got two more partisans. I don't see the problem with the difference of 11 and I think the table in your post is incorrect concerning 11s. (And 21s no doubt.)




michaelbaldur -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (4/24/2007 8:03:12 AM)

alot of ships made it for swedish or allied port. but it was minor naval ships and merchant shipping. 2 naval ships was in green land and 4 ships escaped to sweden.




Frederyck -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (4/24/2007 11:39:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frederyck

This rule is one of those that is most often misunderstood, along with the very very strange ruling about how to get Partisans:

"13.1
You put a partisan unit in the country if the result [of the die roll] is less than or equal to that country’s (modified) partisan number. If it is at least 11 less (my bold face), place 2 partisan units in the country. If it is at least 21 less, place 3 partisan units in the country. If the roll exceeds the partisan number, there is no effect."

It is the "at least 11 or less" that causes problems. If a country's modified partisan value is:
1 -> 10% chance of 1 partisan.
2 -> 20% chance of 1 partisan.
...
9 -> 90% chance of 1 partisan.
10 -> 1 guaranteed partisan. No chance of a second partisan as "at least 11 less" than 10 is -1.
11 -> 1 guaranteed partisan. No chance of a second partisan as "at least 11 less" than 11 is 0 (zero).
12 -> 1 guaranteed partisan. 10% chance of a second partisan as "at least 11 less" than 12 is 1.

The logical progression would (to me) be that you would count "at least 10 less", giving a modified partisan number of 11 a 10% chance of getting 2 partisans and so on, but that is not how the rule is written. Although I do believe that many people play that way.


I agree that its written confusingly, but I don't get your interpretation of "at least 11 less". In reading RAW, I conclude the word "modified" in "modified partisan number" is only in reference to halving the partisan number for an unconquered country at war the same year. The addition for the garrison and subtraction for already existing partisans are applied to the partisan die roll - not the partisan number.

A recent example from our game in progress: USSR came up as subject to partisans. It is not the first year of war involving the USSR, so the (modified) Partisan Number is 30. One partisan was already there and the Axis garrison was 19. A '1' was rolled. Add 19, subtract 1 yields a die roll of 19. 19 is at least 11 less than 30 so the Russians got two more partisans. I don't see the problem with the difference of 11 and I think the table in your post is incorrect concerning 11s. (And 21s no doubt.)


I agree with your interpretation of "modified". But that doesn't invalidate my problem with the ruling. For arguments sake, let's say that there are no (zero) garrison units in a country that is eligible for partisans, and that there are no partisans present either. Also, let the country in question have been declared war on several years ago.

* If the partisan number for this country is 9 according to the map (Yugoslavia), you now have 90% chance of getting a partisan in that country (Ie, a roll equal or lower to the partisan number).

* If the partisan number was 10 according to the map (Italy), there would be 100% chance of getting a single partisan, and no chance of a second.

* If the partisan number was 11 according to the map (doesn't exist, I think, but that is beside the point), you would still have 100% chance of getting 1 partisan and NO chance of getting 2 partisans. To get 2 partisans in this case with no garrison units and no already present partisans you would need to roll "at least 11 less" than 11. And that is zero which cannot be rolled.

I think this is wrong. The wording ought to be "at least 10 less". That would mean that a partisan value of 11 (with no modifiers) would yield 1 partisan 90% of the time (roll=2-10) and 2 partisans 10% of the time (roll=1 which is at least 10 less than 11). If the wording is kept the chances of getting partisans is not linear, which I believe the designers meant it to be.




paulderynck -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (4/25/2007 7:24:07 AM)

One could just as easily assume the anomaly is with the getting of one partisan because of the wording "equal or less", FREX a partisan number of 1 (which Burma used to be, but now is a 2). But originally there would be no way to get a partisan in Burma even with a garrison of zero, had the wording been just: "less than the partisan number".

So this could in fact be what the designers intended.




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