Should this be scrapped?

Should this be scrapped? (Full Version)

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bbbf -> Should this be scrapped? (11/1/2006 12:27:29 AM)
One thing that bugs me is the air balance figure being displayed. Surely it should be consigned to invisibility, as it gives far better recon than recon aircraft or sigint delivers. How do others feel? I don't look at the figure, if I can help it - i.e. I only notice it in passing the cursor over bases. It never forms a part of my planning.

MarcA -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/1/2006 12:37:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bbbf One thing that bugs me is the air balance figure being displayed. Surely it should be consigned to invisibility, as it gives far better recon than recon aircraft or sigint delivers. How do others feel? I don't look at the figure, if I can help it - i.e. I only notice it in passing the cursor over bases. It never forms a part of my planning. I suspect a certain amount of this figure arises from intel type information, such as coast watchers, radio intercepts, etc, feeding back info on aviation activioty in an area. So having an air balance figure is not a bad idea. But maybe it should be affected by FOW to make things a little uncertain. Also, it should only be based on active planes in an area, not planes stood down or repairing. In a similar vein, it was suggested the red lines be removed indicating the origin of a/c in air battles. I think this would be a good idea, especially at sea.

bbbf -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/1/2006 1:25:31 AM)
Fair enough, but I think that those aspects should be tied into the planes at airbase figure - which is subject to FOW. As to direction - I have no problems with a direction line, but it should be one or two hexes long - i.e. you know the direction they came from, but not the actual origin point.

BigJ62 -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/1/2006 1:26:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bbbf One thing that bugs me is the air balance figure being displayed. Surely it should be consigned to invisibility, as it gives far better recon than recon aircraft or sigint delivers. How do others feel? I don't look at the figure, if I can help it - i.e. I only notice it in passing the cursor over bases. It never forms a part of my planning. What mantill said plus I've found that the value(overall) is not that accurate. The game might also be using this info as part of its path finding for tfs(that's just a guess). However it is useful to know why some a/c missions execute and others do not, with this info you might be able to determine why a strike mission did not launch and there are probably other ways this info helps to explain the goings on in this game. p.s. What do the actual numbers mean, I get the relative but not the specific if this makes any sense?

Feinder -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/1/2006 2:49:39 AM)
quote: Also, it should only be based on active planes in an area, not planes stood down or repairing. Air bal does not include damaged aircraft. It only includes un-damaged aircraft. If they do not have a mission (stood down), they are still counted tho, as long as they are not damaged. What do the numbers mean? To give the vague answer that I'm allowed to give, it's a relative number to the amount of air-powered "oomph" at a base. -F-

bbbf -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/1/2006 3:54:22 AM)
Maybe the biggest issue is the immediacy of the air balance number. You move aircraft and your opponent knows when they execute what you have done and can counter it. This is obviously a bigger issue for Japanese players. Allied players can get a handle on what you are up to and respond that turn, while you have to wait until next turn - and they still get to alter their plans on what your response seems to be. Of course, Japan gets the bonus in land combat execution of going first - but I think that being ultra responsive to air movements is a way bigger advantage. I think the number displayed should be muddied a lot more.

Feinder -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/1/2006 4:14:46 AM)
It's useful, but folks don't actually -use- it all that often. Many times, it's gives "well duh!" intel. If you see that Rabaul has an air-bal of 750, it certainly means a lot of crap is based there. But then again, it's Rabual. "Well duh". Of course there's going to be a lot of stuff there, it's Rabaul. Granted, if you're very clever, you can discern quite a bit intel from airbal numbers. But the reality is, few folks spend the time to actually make it "worth while intel". If you're playing somebody who actually uses airbal (effectively) for intel, he's going to be very talented to begin with, and know much subtler "tricks". He's going to beat you because he's a quality player, not because he spent too much time tinkering with the subtleties of airbal. Playing games with airbal will save your ass; but it won't kick your ass (if you take my meaning). Frankly, I consider it mild compensation for the incredible UNDER-representation of what Sigint is. The US could pretty much tell whenever Hirohito was constipated, their intel was THAT accurate. Considering how Sigint in game is a mere shadow of it's real usefulness (and yes, I'm one of the bone-heads that charts sigint with Bohdi's Util), I consider AirBal one of the few "tools" to gather intel, if you actually choose to spend the time to figure out what it's actually telling you. Again, it -can- be useful. But frankly, the extreme majority of player could really give a crap about it. I can certainly see both sides of the coin, perhaps it was left in as an over-sight. But for all the "lets find a real-world justification" that tends to go on, on these boards. It can be justified by radio traffic and visual spots of coast-watchers and a "contribution" of Sigint. To each his own. -F-

RUPD3658 -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/1/2006 4:55:40 AM)
Allied intel seems to be much better than Japanese. When the KB was in port 10-15 hexes beyond Allied recon range, my opponant knew where it was within a day. I barley get that there are ships of any type in an Allied port even after I recon it. The Allies must have early spy satelites in use.

ctangus -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/1/2006 5:42:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Feinder It's useful, but folks don't actually -use- it all that often. Many times, it's gives "well duh!" intel. If you see that Rabaul has an air-bal of 750, it certainly means a lot of crap is based there. But then again, it's Rabual. "Well duh". Of course there's going to be a lot of stuff there, it's Rabaul. Granted, if you're very clever, you can discern quite a bit intel from airbal numbers. But the reality is, few folks spend the time to actually make it "worth while intel". If you're playing somebody who actually uses airbal (effectively) for intel, he's going to be very talented to begin with, and know much subtler "tricks". He's going to beat you because he's a quality player, not because he spent too much time tinkering with the subtleties of airbal. Playing games with airbal will save your ass; but it won't kick your ass (if you take my meaning). Frankly, I consider it mild compensation for the incredible UNDER-representation of what Sigint is. The US could pretty much tell whenever Hirohito was constipated, their intel was THAT accurate. Considering how Sigint in game is a mere shadow of it's real usefulness (and yes, I'm one of the bone-heads that charts sigint with Bohdi's Util), I consider AirBal one of the few "tools" to gather intel, if you actually choose to spend the time to figure out what it's actually telling you. Again, it -can- be useful. But frankly, the extreme majority of player could really give a crap about it. I can certainly see both sides of the coin, perhaps it was left in as an over-sight. But for all the "lets find a real-world justification" that tends to go on, on these boards. It can be justified by radio traffic and visual spots of coast-watchers and a "contribution" of Sigint. To each his own. -F- I agree entirely. I'm like you - I use Bodhi's utilitty & have collated a lot of useful info from that. But the air balance numbers? It could probably give me useful intel, if I paid more attention to it, but it only has once for certain. Mostly I don't pay much attention to it. In about 900-1000 PBEM turns, I once noticed a large imbalance in air balance numbers that caused me to change my plans. I had a (one) CV TF nearby & ran because of that. It turned out that KB was nearby (it sank an AK the next turn). Air balance numbers probably saved me a CV that turn. With all that said, I'd still like to see this eliminated from the game. From what I understand the "airbal" numbers are mainly meant for the AI, and so should be hidden from players of both sides.

JeffroK -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/1/2006 5:44:51 AM)
Make the air bal a rating rather than a number. Enemy Supremecy Enemy Superiority Contested Allied Superiority Allied Supremacy Even add a bit of FOW to the rating to show what can be noticed rather than an exact number

bradfordkay -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/1/2006 5:47:41 AM)
I went on record on the wish list as aking for the air balance numbers to be removed from the mouse over for bases. If a large carrier group moves into/through an area, the air balance numbers for the nearby bases will change by a huge amount. Maybe it is intel that we should have, but I feel otherwise...

castor troy -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/1/2006 11:52:19 AM)
What�s far worse than the airbalance number is the fact that the Allied player can see when you transfer planes to an airfield and attack it within the next turn (even if it�s meant that you do your orders simultaneously). And not that he just can see that you transfered planes he can also guess how many because of the colour... That sucks! The Japanese transferes planes to an airfield, the Allied player can see it, the airfield is smashed - GREAT! The Allied transferes planes to an airfield, the Japanese didn�t see it, the Allied flies from this airfield and smashes something, the Allied retreats again from the airfield, the Japanese attacks this airfield (because he sees something there), the Japanese bombs an empty airfield because the Allied has already retreaten... - GREAT again.... I can�t just have hundreds of house rules! No attacks the turn you transfer planes, no transfer when your planes attacked....

Sonny -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/1/2006 5:29:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: castor troy What�s far worse than the airbalance number is the fact that the Allied player can see when you transfer planes to an airfield and attack it within the next turn (even if it�s meant that you do your orders simultaneously). And not that he just can see that you transfered planes he can also guess how many because of the colour... That sucks! The Japanese transferes planes to an airfield, the Allied player can see it, the airfield is smashed - GREAT! The Allied transferes planes to an airfield, the Japanese didn�t see it, the Allied flies from this airfield and smashes something, the Allied retreats again from the airfield, the Japanese attacks this airfield (because he sees something there), the Japanese bombs an empty airfield because the Allied has already retreaten... - GREAT again.... I can�t just have hundreds of house rules! No attacks the turn you transfer planes, no transfer when your planes attacked.... I hate that also. It oculd be eliminated by making transfers part of the turn and not part of the orders phase. While I'm at it - why can't you escort transport planes?

mc3744 -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/1/2006 8:13:42 PM)
Hey Rob [:)] If it's any consolation to you, please note that I never cared for the air bal. [;)] I just recently 'discovered' its existence and I never remember what number is good for me [:'(] Hence I just don't watch it. I do take advantage of seeing if an airport has or not aircrafts in it. But that can be used both ways. Cheers [:)]

pauk -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/1/2006 10:59:54 PM)
Yes it should be removed... First of all, i do not consider this gamey and don't want to throw any flames here.... what is the problem with air balance - Castor troy explained this quite well. Ok, we can imagine that this is Allied intel but i really don't think that Allies should know everytime where and when Japanese keep/transfer/move in/ planes.... I believe that later Allied radar is enough - you aren't able to caught them by suprise, and that is ok... but anyone who knows how to use air balance numbers (i'm sure that there is quite a lot guys who knows that), and his opponent doesnt is in great advantage... IMO, air balance kills fun for both sides - you are able to plan invasions, ambushing of the enemy air force even without sending a lone recon... now that is really stupid... I won't pretend that i don't look at the air balance numbers (as i'm sure that my opponents look at these numbers too), in fact i'm using/used this intel - but this shouldn't be available for players!

mc3744 -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/1/2006 11:19:32 PM)
Sounds like it's time to learn [:D] Ok, can someone tell me how to use Air bal, please? [:)] I think I read it before, but I can't remember. The plus and minus is relative to the side you are on, or is it absolute? Is there some kind of treshold? Above or below something is good/dangerous/crowded/...? Thanks ... although I managed quite well even without it. Recon is pretty much enough [8D] [:D]

bbbf -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/2/2006 12:41:25 AM)
Not aimed at you Max[:D][:D] Or any of my PBEM partners or anyone in particular. Just a gripe I've developed over years of reading AAR's and other comments about air balance. It just doesn't feel right.

mc3744 -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/2/2006 3:16:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bbbf Not aimed at you Max[:D][:D] Or any of my PBEM partners or anyone in particular. Just a gripe I've developed over years of reading AAR's and other comments about air balance. It just doesn't feel right. No problem [:)] You just stirred my interest. I should actually start looking at it, while it's there. [;)] Can you tell me how to use it? I don't think it'll make much of a difference anyway. IMHO the biggest "cheat" is that the Allies (but not the Japs) can see before giving the orders if there are ships or planes at any given base. The air strenght can usually be guessed well enough, especially with the arifield size house rule. Send me the turn! [:D]

spence -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/2/2006 3:57:08 PM)
quote: as it gives far better recon than recon aircraft or sigint delivers Considering that IRL the Allies were into the knickers of most Japanese radio communications throughout much of the war and that the Allied Sigint is replete with of such valuable nuggets as "Tokyo Fortress is located at Tokyo" and little else; I have no problem with the Allied Player deriving greater intel from the Airbalance number that the Japanese Player.

Grotius -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/2/2006 6:06:29 PM)
I also think air bal should not be visible to the players. We get too much "free intel" as it is.

Feinder -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/2/2006 6:40:03 PM)
I see what you're saying about transferring a sqdn, and then it changing the airbal for the Allied player. That might be true, but I'm not sure that it is. I -do- know that if Japan transfers a sqdn to a vacant base, the Allied player when receiving the turn does see the "X" at the new base. I'm not sure if air-bal is recalculated for the Allied player as he opens the turn (will be easy enough to test). I do know that if you transfer a sqdn during your own turn, it does NOT affect air-bal. So I'll test it out. AirBal is a composite of -ALL- sqdns, friendly and enemy, within range of the hex (and decreases as range increases). An Emily really does project AirBal out to a range of 20 (yes, I tested it). It doesn't project -much- airbal at 20. Think about a lonesome hex on the map. That means every every non-damaged Emily within a diameter of 40 is affecting the AirBal of that hex. Frankly, I think some of y'all a bit paranoid. AirBal can be a very tough read. Kinda like saying "something" moved to within 12 hexes of Sing, because the Airbal jumped by 100 pts. Did it move -TO- Sing? Or Jahor Bahru? Batavia? It's hard to tell anything within 6 - 8 hexes, simply because of the "noise" of other active bases. Also, be aware that your own transfers affect the number. So if Japan moves in 4 sqdns of Zeros to some base, and I move up a sqdn of Hudsons, my sqdn of Hudsons negates (and thus masks) the presense of some of the AirBal. Suffice to say, I -know- AirBal. And even if I took the time to monitor every turn (which I don't), the best you normally get is "My opponnent has transferred several sqdns from SoPac to Burma." One sqdn gets lost in the back ground noise. 10 sqdns you might notice. But again, if your enemy transfers something into a area where -you- have a large base, it's difficult to "hear" the transfer, because your own base is making so much noise already. If Matrix says it's a 'bug', then it should be removed. But to be honest with you, I'm quite sure that most of you guys are over-estimating it's true effectiveness. Don't get me wrong, you -can- get a read from AirBal. But it's not so concrete as you seem to think it is. Try it in your own PBEM games, and see how much intel you actually gain from it. It's -not- that easy, even when you know the formula. -F-

bradfordkay -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/2/2006 7:07:07 PM)
My feeling is that the air balance numbers give you information that should be obtained by reconaissance or combat. Just being able to see that the air balance has shifted heavily in your enemy's favor, without having had any contact with those new air units, seems off. I have no problem with adding "17th Daitai is at Lombok" to the sigint screen, but I don't agree with being able to see the air balance numbers as I sweep my cursor over the map.

spence -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/2/2006 7:16:33 PM)
quote: My feeling is that the air balance numbers give you information that should be obtained by reconaissance or combat Unfortunately most of the Allied reconnaisance assets available in real life are absent entirely or missing because a single squadron can not be assigned bombing AND reconnaisance although both missions were IRL accomplished by the same unit.

pauk -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/2/2006 7:25:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Feinder I see what you're saying about transferring a sqdn, and then it changing the airbal for the Allied player.� That might be true, but I'm not sure that it is.� I -do- know that if Japan transfers a sqdn to a vacant base, the Allied player when receiving the turn does see the "X" at the new base.� I'm not sure if air-bal is recalculated for the Allied player as he opens the turn (will be easy enough to test).� I do know that if you transfer a sqdn during your own turn, it does NOT affect air-bal.� So I'll test it out. AirBal is a composite of -ALL- sqdns, friendly and enemy, within range of the hex (and decreases as range increases).� An Emily really does project AirBal out to a range of 20 (yes, I tested it).� It doesn't project -much- airbal at 20.� Think about a lonesome hex on the map.� That means every every non-damaged Emily within a�diameter of 40 is affecting the AirBal of that hex.� Frankly, I think some of y'all a bit paranoid.� AirBal can be a very tough read.� Kinda like saying "something" moved to within 12 hexes of Sing, because the Airbal jumped by 100 pts.� Did it move -TO- Sing?� Or Jahor Bahru?� Batavia?� It's hard to tell anything within 6 - 8 hexes, simply because of the "noise" of other active bases.� Also, be aware that your own transfers affect the number.� So�if Japan�moves in 4 sqdns�of Zeros to some base, and�I move up a sqdn of Hudsons, my sqdn of Hudsons negates (and thus masks) the presense of some of the�AirBal.� Suffice to say, I -know- AirBal.� And even if I took the time to monitor every turn (which I don't), the best you normally�get is "My opponnent has transferred several sqdns from SoPac to Burma."� One sqdn gets lost in the back ground noise.� 10 sqdns you might notice.� But again, if your enemy transfers something into a area where -you- have a large base, it's difficult to "hear" the transfer, because your own base is making so much noise already. If Matrix says it's a 'bug', then it should be removed.� But to be honest with you, I'm quite sure that most of you guys are over-estimating it's true effectiveness.� Don't get me wrong, you -can- get a read from AirBal.� But it's not so concrete as you seem to think it is.� Try�it in your own PBEM games, and see how much intel you actually gain from it.� It's -not- that easy, even when you know the formula. -F- Feinder, what you've said working in the early period of the war, but not in later phase. As we know, Allies had air superiority and that is perfectly ok... the only chance for bloody Japs is to prepare ambush if his opponent becomes easy going (dont send fighters on escort)... but with air balance numbers this isn't possible - yes air balance changing immediately (after you save and re load your turn) Furthermore, as Ctangus pointed, airbalance could be decisive (he saved his CVs because that!) I do not see any reason why this air balance should remain in the game (yes i'm bitching for that over a year!) - Allies can not be suprised because they can see "X" if the Japs move in planes and latter they have advantage - radar! (funny, but japanese air search radar is still not working - so it is better to have soundetector than radar!) So even if they set 20 or 30 % CAp they will have 60 % or more ac on CAP and that is more than enough to deal with japanese paper planes...

BigJ62 -> RE: Should this be scrapped? (11/2/2006 8:06:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Feinder I see what you're saying about transferring a sqdn, and then it changing the airbal for the Allied player.� That might be true, but I'm not sure that it is.� I -do- know that if Japan transfers a sqdn to a vacant base, the Allied player when receiving the turn does see the "X" at the new base.� I'm not sure if air-bal is recalculated for the Allied player as he opens the turn (will be easy enough to test).� I do know that if you transfer a sqdn during your own turn, it does NOT affect air-bal.� So I'll test it out. AirBal is a composite of -ALL- sqdns, friendly and enemy, within range of the hex (and decreases as range increases).� An Emily really does project AirBal out to a range of 20 (yes, I tested it).� It doesn't project -much- airbal at 20.� Think about a lonesome hex on the map.� That means every every non-damaged Emily within a�diameter of 40 is affecting the AirBal of that hex.� Frankly, I think some of y'all a bit paranoid.� AirBal can be a very tough read.� Kinda like saying "something" moved to within 12 hexes of Sing, because the Airbal jumped by 100 pts.� Did it move -TO- Sing?� Or Jahor Bahru?� Batavia?� It's hard to tell anything within 6 - 8 hexes, simply because of the "noise" of other active bases.� Also, be aware that your own transfers affect the number.� So�if Japan�moves in 4 sqdns�of Zeros to some base, and�I move up a sqdn of Hudsons, my sqdn of Hudsons negates (and thus masks) the presense of some of the�AirBal.� Suffice to say, I -know- AirBal.� And even if I took the time to monitor every turn (which I don't), the best you normally�get is "My opponnent has transferred several sqdns from SoPac to Burma."� One sqdn gets lost in the back ground noise.� 10 sqdns you might notice.� But again, if your enemy transfers something into a area where -you- have a large base, it's difficult to "hear" the transfer, because your own base is making so much noise already. If Matrix says it's a 'bug', then it should be removed.� But to be honest with you, I'm quite sure that most of you guys are over-estimating it's true effectiveness.� Don't get me wrong, you -can- get a read from AirBal.� But it's not so concrete as you seem to think it is.� Try�it in your own PBEM games, and see how much intel you actually gain from it.� It's -not- that easy, even when you know the formula. -F- I get what you are saying, it seems improbable at least with any degree of certainty what caused the shift in air balance and specifically where. Maybe one suggestion, instead of air balance tool tip, show only the current detection level/MDL and any info directly related to SigInt or whatever methods are being used. I think it would be helpful because I have on occasion had recon missions turn up nothing when I knew for a fact that there was something there. In the case of boming missions where the damage is minimal it would be nice to know why, DL/MDL could help to explain this. I don't know just some thoughts. p.s. Never really thought of it as an early warning net.

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