Battle of Britain? (Full Version)

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SeattleKCD -> Battle of Britain? (11/7/2006 6:01:26 AM)

Why is Germany prevented from fighting the Battle of Britain? They can fly their bombers there, but no fighters can reach Britain earlier than winter'41 by my calculations. Sending unescorted bombers with seems like suicide.



Uncle_Joe -> RE: Battle of Britain? (11/7/2006 11:28:44 AM)

This was discussed a few times in WaW and again in the beta for AWD. The gist from the 2by3 folks is that German Fighters didnt have the range to reach more than just the coast of Britain and that allowing them free reign over Britain in '40 would be grossly exaggerating their effectiveness. In their estimation, most of the actual 'BoB' was fought primarily with 'unescorted' bombers (in the AWD sense).

Hope it helps!



Petiloup -> RE: Battle of Britain? (11/8/2006 8:37:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe

In their estimation, most of the actual 'BoB' was fought primarily with 'unescorted' bombers (in the AWD sense).



Doesn't sound quite right. From the facts the BF-109 were even reaching London but with only a few minutes of fighting capabilities.

Think it's more that allowing German fighters to reach England would make Sealion a lot easier in 1940 and if England falls in 1940 then poor Russian [:(]



Uncle_Joe -> RE: Battle of Britain? (11/8/2006 9:28:12 AM)

I'm just going by what I've been told. Mostly Sea Lion is more of a threat in early 41 anyways. And its quite possible to do with Germany unless England really stays on her toes. When the arty/amphib bug is fixed, I imagine we'll see more attempts at Sea Lion as well.



Joel Billings -> RE: Battle of Britain? (11/8/2006 7:25:51 PM)

Gary has the opinion that had Germany had a longer range single engine fighter force they might have prevailed in the Battle of Britain. The fact that the 109s were so limited in there range meant that they could not project their power to gain air superiority over England. It was up to the bombers to destroy the RAF on the ground. Given the map scale and abstractions that come into play with a strategic game at this scale, we felt this was the right way to go. If you want to explore the detailed Battle of Britian you can soon get Gary's old Battle of Britain game when it is rereleased by Matrix as Eagle Day to the Bombing of the Reich.

There was discussion of an alternative of increasing unit range and having major negative modifiers when fighting at extreme range, but this would have been a major change that would have impacted much more than the BoB and we decided against making the change.



Petiloup -> RE: Battle of Britain? (11/10/2006 6:26:37 AM)


Not being an expert in BoB but having read a bit of the subject I was more under the impression that the RAF was loosing the battle till the dear german leaders make the stupidity of changing targets from RAF airfields to London.

By the way from the Pas de Calais you can see Great Britain so I doubt the BF109 couldn't project their fighting capabilities there if an invasion was decided.

The BoB started late and was poorly conducted from the German side in general. Even radars were not considered prime target before some time. Those were the one giving the edge of the RAF to counter the German air raids by concentrating the same planes over and over. Combat fatigue was high for the RAF pilots. Without those radars and needing to cover the whole South of England with sentries instead how could the RAF have succeeded? German raid were forming over France that the RAF was already preparing itself to meet them.

Germany suffered a lot of losses in the battle but they had superiority in numbers and could have achieved air control maybe not supremacy over the channel and launch an invasion.

2 things seems to be the issues: 1/ Hitler will to invade Russia anyway and England was not a priority, 2/ good leadership from Goering and clear strategy into doing BoB.

Maybe giving a bonus for air combat in England due to Radar Coverage would be a solution and keep the German fighter with a speed of 2 or make it easier to reach that limit in 1940.



jpinard -> RE: Battle of Britain? (1/5/2007 7:31:52 AM)

Interesting discussion.  I haven't dove into the game yet, but is it possible to create a scenario where the Germans can research longer range fighters (or start out with it).  This could have been possible if the German aircraft industries had worked together instead of in seclusion.

Another note.  In the BoB air war, the Germans had ample range to fly/fight over the channel and if done properly they could have secured total air supremacy with better coordinated attacks on British airfields.  But German leaders kept getting distracted and allowed major airfields to recover.  Germany lost a ton of good pilots in BoB and it hurt them the rest of the war.



WanderingHead -> RE: Battle of Britain? (1/5/2007 7:39:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jpinard

Interesting discussion.  I haven't dove into the game yet, but is it possible to create a scenario where the Germans can research longer range fighters (or start out with it). 


This is quite possible. I do believe that it is likely unbalancing, however ...


In wawgoldfactory.txt the tech limits are defined (how fast you can advance). They do apply to all powers equally. 
TECH_LIMIT,1,1939,1,1940,12,PLAYER_GER,United States,Russia
TECH_LIMIT,2,1941,1,1943,12,PLAYER_GER,United States,Russia
In wawgoldunitdata39.txt the initial tech levels are defined. 
UNIT,FIGHTER AIR,PLAYER_GER
UNITDATA,TD_TYPE,1,TD_AA,6,TD_SA,1,TD_UA,1,TD_LA,2,TD_TORP,0
UNITDATA,TD_SPEED,1,TD_RANGE,1,TD_EVADE,5,TD_ARMOR,0,TD_DURAB,3
UNITDATA,TD_CAP,5,TD_AMPHIB,0,TD_COST,2,TD_CLASS,1,TD_SUP_USE,1
UNITDATA,TD_FUEL_USE,0
In wawgoldresearch39.txt the initial research levels (how far along to the next tech level) are defined: 
RESEARCH,PLAYER_GER,FIGHTER AIR,TD_EVADE,4



Petiloup -> RE: Battle of Britain? (6/12/2007 5:19:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead

This is quite possible. I do believe that it is likely unbalancing, however ...



In a certain way it's true because the British fighters were not worst than the German ones. Less numerous surely but the Spitfire was more than a match against the Me-109 and the Hurricane could take on easily against the rest (Me-110, He-111,...) which is exactly the tactic they used.

If the German fighter Speed is increased then the Evasion and Air Attack of the British one should be increased as well to the same value of the German one.



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