RE: Late June 1862 (Full Version)

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Joram -> RE: Late June 1862 (11/14/2006 9:37:59 PM)

Is seeing the opponents strength on the chart an option? If not, I strongly would hope that they add it as an option as I think it is totally unfair that you could glean that his strength is the same as yours. If you really thought you had the advantage in manpower, I would think that would cause you to make different choices than if you knew you were even.

If you just left the option on, that's fine but I find it odd in a multiplayer game to do so. Or is there some degree of uncertainty in the measure?



elmo3 -> RE: Late June 1862 (11/14/2006 10:46:26 PM)

Keyes' Army seems a long way from home. Is he resupplied via the Upper TN River? If not is he facing logistical issues being so far from a source of supply? Is there any chance the regions he moved through will revert back to CSA control after being vacant for a while or must the CSA move forces into them to retake them? Thanks.



Mike Scholl -> RE: Late June 1862 (11/14/2006 10:59:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram

Is seeing the opponents strength on the chart an option? If not, I strongly would hope that they add it as an option as I think it is totally unfair that you could glean that his strength is the same as yours. If you really thought you had the advantage in manpower, I would think that would cause you to make different choices than if you knew you were even.

If you just left the option on, that's fine but I find it odd in a multiplayer game to do so. Or is there some degree of uncertainty in the measure?



Actually both sides strategic intelligence on the other during the Civil War was quite good. Too many Newspapers spilling every piece on information they could get..., too many "friends of the other side" in both populations..., and too much "Democracy" on both sides to effectively impose secrecy. Only a true idiot like McClellan could create in his own mind huge ficticious numbers for the other side.



regularbird -> RE: Late June 1862 (11/14/2006 11:12:36 PM)

Actually both sides strategic intelligence on the other during the Civil War was quite good. Too many Newspapers spilling every piece on information they could get..., too many "friends of the other side" in both populations..., and too much "Democracy" on both sides to effectively impose secrecy. Only a true idiot like McClellan could create in his own mind huge ficticious numbers for the other side.
[/quote]


OK enough McClellan bashig on here already. McClellan was definately a little to cautious and quite deliberate and predictable, but an idiot that is unfair. The guy was never soundy whipped and he was even rather successful in western virginia and probably the best organizer of the ACW. For some reason I kinda have always identified with this guy. And by the way there was a problem determining troop strengths early in the war, espaecially with the pinkertons who are the folks on which Mac depended, remember Mac did not have a Jeb Stuart.

I believe some of the battle plans that Mac made were quite sound and the officers and men under him rather respected him.



kfmiller41 -> RE: Late June 1862 (11/15/2006 12:29:40 AM)

Just wanted to comment on what a great AAR this is and I am looking forward to getting this game. I kind of agree with Regularbird about Little Mac. Although he was very timid with his armies he was a great organizer and got his troops very ready to fight, which was a talent many other generals on both sides lacked.



jchastain -> RE: Late June 1862 (11/15/2006 2:04:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram

Is seeing the opponents strength on the chart an option? If not, I strongly would hope that they add it as an option as I think it is totally unfair that you could glean that his strength is the same as yours. If you really thought you had the advantage in manpower, I would think that would cause you to make different choices than if you knew you were even.

If you just left the option on, that's fine but I find it odd in a multiplayer game to do so. Or is there some degree of uncertainty in the measure?


It is not an option - stats are always available. Personally, I don't find this offensive since (as weas stated) there was pretty good intel all the way around. But if you feel strongly about it, I would encourage you to mention it in the "discussion" thread where Gil can join the discussion.



jchastain -> RE: Late June 1862 (11/15/2006 2:18:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

Keyes' Army seems a long way from home. Is he resupplied via the Upper TN River? If not is he facing logistical issues being so far from a source of supply? Is there any chance the regions he moved through will revert back to CSA control after being vacant for a while or must the CSA move forces into them to retake them? Thanks.


His supply can be traced along the Rail line through Tuscumbia, Oxford and Hatchie. Part of the goal of the 4th army is to open supply routes through the tennessee river. River and Rail supply is the most effective. Supply can be traced over land without a rail, though you receive only a portion of your potential resupply (half I believe). So I am fine right now and am taking additional steps to protect my supply lines. Prvoince control does not change on its own nor can a loose brigade take control of a province - you need a staffed container such as a division. That is why I am not overly concerned about garrisons crawling out of memphis to cut off my supply and why the raiders in Oxford aren't overly concerning. But that is also why I intend to circle back after my attack on Huntsville. If I stayed in Huntsville while Sibley and Hindman moved North, I would be cut off. Even cut off, a unit has its current supply levels. I simply could not resupply. But I could likely fight my way back to a place where I could draw resupply.

Overall, the system is reasonably effective yet simple enough to be understood without too much complexity. The only part of all of that where I recommended a change would be to allow provinces to change possession when ungarrisoned, adjacent to an enemy controlled province, and with the state capital in enemy control. The conditions could be tweaked as appropriate but in my mind, the new state government would eventually exert control within their borders if enemy troops evacuated the area. Right now, that doesn't happen. It's not a major deal, but I think such a role would be an improvement.



elmo3 -> RE: Late June 1862 (11/15/2006 2:26:03 AM)

Thanks and FWIW I agree with your proposed change. Territroy would most likely revert at some point if the enemy left the area.



Joram -> RE: Late June 1862 (11/15/2006 2:35:22 AM)

Hmm, I don't know what to think really. I think it would be worth an option to turn off the fog of war though I concede that there may have been pretty good intelligence thanks to the nature of the war. Anyway, thanks for the clarification and keep up the good work.



Mike Scholl -> RE: Late June 1862 (11/15/2006 4:04:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: miller41

Just wanted to comment on what a great AAR this is and I am looking forward to getting this game. I kind of agree with Regularbird about Little Mac. Although he was very timid with his armies he was a great organizer and got his troops very ready to fight, which was a talent many other generals on both sides lacked.



Yes..., he was a fine organizer and his troops liked him and were ready to fight for him. Problem was HE was never ready to fight. Only a complete idiot could have managed to BELIEVE that Lee had him outnumbered 2 to 1 in the Penninsula..., or to have siezed a bloody, futile, draw from the "Jaws of Victory" at Antietam. The man was hopeless as a field commander...



AU Tiger_MatrixForum -> RE: Late June 1862 (11/15/2006 4:44:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: miller41

Just wanted to comment on what a great AAR this is and I am looking forward to getting this game. I kind of agree with Regularbird about Little Mac. Although he was very timid with his armies he was a great organizer and got his troops very ready to fight, which was a talent many other generals on both sides lacked.



Yes..., he was a fine organizer and his troops liked him and were ready to fight for him. Problem was HE was never ready to fight. Only a complete idiot could have managed to BELIEVE that Lee had him outnumbered 2 to 1 in the Penninsula..., or to have siezed a bloody, futile, draw from the "Jaws of Victory" at Antietam. The man was hopeless as a field commander...



That about sums him up in my mind.



Grifman -> RE: Late June 1862 (11/15/2006 5:14:15 AM)

Just a question - you called Nashville a "fort". Are all Southern cities considered fortified? I don't see a fort image there.



jchastain -> RE: Late June 1862 (11/15/2006 5:20:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grifman

Just a question - you called Nashville a "fort". Are all Southern cities considered fortified? I don't see a fort image there.


No, that's just my loose references. There is a fort in the same province as Nashville (Ft Donelson, I believe) and that is what I am actually laying siege to. Nashville is the real goal, but I have to take the fort before I am permitted to assault the city.



jchastain -> Early July 1862 (11/15/2006 5:24:37 AM)

Those siege numbers are a lot more tenable. Defense value was reduced roughly a quarter. 3 more turns would take us to till the end of August. That's not as fast as I'd like, but I can make it work. No battle though. What a shame.

[image]local://upfiles/9706/13E90E51AE5C49999A10445661FEA3A5.jpg[/image]



jchastain -> RE: Early July 1862 (11/15/2006 5:30:05 AM)

Page 2 is busy, but nothing especially important. Europe goes down, Europe goes up.

One thing I haven't yet seen is a training. Division and corp staff officers can sometimes raise their abilities if serving within another unit with better skills. So a division with a normal Command Staff rating might improve to fair when serving within a corp with a good Command Staff rating. It doesn't happen real often, but it is nice when it does happen.

[image]local://upfiles/9706/218FCDB6A37D4DC69C5F432A8F74DE34.jpg[/image]



regularbird -> RE: Late June 1862 (11/15/2006 5:32:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: miller41

Just wanted to comment on what a great AAR this is and I am looking forward to getting this game. I kind of agree with Regularbird about Little Mac. Although he was very timid with his armies he was a great organizer and got his troops very ready to fight, which was a talent many other generals on both sides lacked.



Yes..., he was a fine organizer and his troops liked him and were ready to fight for him. Problem was HE was never ready to fight. Only a complete idiot could have managed to BELIEVE that Lee had him outnumbered 2 to 1 in the Penninsula..., or to have siezed a bloody, futile, draw from the "Jaws of Victory" at Antietam. The man was hopeless as a field commander...



Mike your assuming he knew everything that you know now. Yes McClellan had Lee's orders and if he would have just committed his reserve he could have probably carried the day. But you must consider that he just witnessed 3 major attacks repulsed thousands of his troops destroyed and was concerned that if his reserve was wasted then he was beaten. He chose to play it safe. I am no Mac apologist I just think it is hard to call a man an idiot who was well educated, loved by his troops and the only guy to even draw with bobby lee until 63. If you would like to say he made some bad decisions than I could definately buy that. But please remember hindsight is 20/20 and his pinkerton's were duoped by the csa as to there exact numbers and the loss of life was extraordinary.



jchastain -> RE: Early July 1862 (11/15/2006 5:32:38 AM)

OK, let's start out west and see what happened. Looks like those divisions are finally retreating back to sync up with Johnston's corp as I suspected they might do. I wish I could have given them another beating before they left, but oh well. I liked it better when they were divided and easily defeated.

[image]local://upfiles/9706/47086EA176F34354B84921040875F4C1.jpg[/image]



jchastain -> RE: Early July 1862 (11/15/2006 5:34:02 AM)

Let's look into this a bit more. The intel is sketchy to be sure, but it's better than nothing. Looks like Johnston has about 50K troops in Chatanooga.

[image]local://upfiles/9706/0D60FFB8E8304B59A1126E3699CA8353.jpg[/image]



jchastain -> RE: Early July 1862 (11/15/2006 5:35:15 AM)

The three amigos down in North Georgia have a similar number.

So, if the numbers can be trusted, they have about 100K coming together.

[image]local://upfiles/9706/E22A95557F944C3FA40A364E8164667A.jpg[/image]



jchastain -> RE: Early July 1862 (11/15/2006 5:36:23 AM)

Meanwhile, I have 75K in my intended attack force.

[image]local://upfiles/9706/7EC812748412428F8138FBC20A258678.jpg[/image]



AU Tiger_MatrixForum -> RE: Late June 1862 (11/15/2006 5:41:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: regularbird


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: miller41

Just wanted to comment on what a great AAR this is and I am looking forward to getting this game. I kind of agree with Regularbird about Little Mac. Although he was very timid with his armies he was a great organizer and got his troops very ready to fight, which was a talent many other generals on both sides lacked.



Yes..., he was a fine organizer and his troops liked him and were ready to fight for him. Problem was HE was never ready to fight. Only a complete idiot could have managed to BELIEVE that Lee had him outnumbered 2 to 1 in the Penninsula..., or to have siezed a bloody, futile, draw from the "Jaws of Victory" at Antietam. The man was hopeless as a field commander...



Mike your assuming he knew everything that you know now. Yes McClellan had Lee's orders and if he would have just committed his reserve he could have probably carried the day. But you must consider that he just witnessed 3 major attacks repulsed thousands of his troops destroyed and was concerned that if his reserve was wasted then he was beaten. He chose to play it safe. I am no Mac apologist I just think it is hard to call a man an idiot who was well educated, loved by his troops and the only guy to even draw with bobby lee until 63. If you would like to say he made some bad decisions than I could definately buy that. But please remember hindsight is 20/20 and his pinkerton's were duoped by the csa as to there exact numbers and the loss of life was extraordinary.



Picture the scenario where Mac's, Burnsides, Hooker's, etc. orders fell into Lee's hands.....
Mac squandered an opportunity at Sharpsburg by committing his attacks piecemeal allowing Lee to shift forces as necessary.

I intended to go on about this, but this is not the right thread for this argument.

BACK TO YOU JCHASTAIN!
And may your wicked forces suffer horribly at the hands of the True and Just!



jchastain -> RE: Early July 1862 (11/15/2006 5:43:11 AM)

And another 100K in the siege forces. Of course, those are unreliable for even leaving the current province as demonstrated repeatedly.

OK, let's think about this. My 75K against his 100K likely isn't a safe move. Generally speaking, the North can't stand toe to toe with the Rebs with even numbers. I've got a fairly good level of confidence in this army, but asking them to take on the combined corp might be asking too much.

If I added in the extra 100K in shock troops, that would likely do it. Especially if I took a turn or two to get them ready for the fight. The problem is that they will be encircling that fort for at least 3 more turns.

He really has left the entire west open by drawing all of his forces to Eastern Tennessee. That's where I really need to take advantage of this situation. I can't reliably pull troops out of the Nashville operation, so I suppose I'll just have to raise another round of troops for the job. I hesitated doing it before because of the upcoming elections, but I need to move against all this open territory. At least 4 states are completely undefended.

[image]local://upfiles/9706/6BE3C52621B048168F88873BE2654A49.jpg[/image]



jchastain -> RE: Early July 1862 (11/15/2006 5:44:24 AM)

I'll need a division or two in order to occupy territory. Let's build one in St Louis.

[image]local://upfiles/9706/10364804517342E080F711BC001E7936.jpg[/image]



jchastain -> RE: Early July 1862 (11/15/2006 5:45:31 AM)

And then its time to go nuts raising our army. There are several cities in page 1 that should be able to contribute. That's a division's worth right there.

[image]local://upfiles/9706/0EF7573A53FC4DD1A531B9DEA798FF1B.jpg[/image]



Grifman -> RE: Early July 1862 (11/15/2006 5:47:52 AM)

Reading your perspective on this war and your opponent's is very interesting to say the least. And I won't say any more than that :)



jchastain -> RE: Early July 1862 (11/15/2006 5:47:56 AM)

And then another division plus some on page 2. That ought to get me the boots on the ground that I'm needing. They won't be worth much of anything in terms of quality, but I don't need cotton gin scientists to surround a city and wait for them to starve and surrender.

[image]local://upfiles/9706/D6FFBE2276984D6B8A62B03200A3DFB5.jpg[/image]



jchastain -> RE: Early July 1862 (11/15/2006 5:49:26 AM)

OK, I need another Division now that I have so many call-ups going into effect.

[image]local://upfiles/9706/1E795947C7A34314B864A17CFA08225A.jpg[/image]



jchastain -> RE: Early July 1862 (11/15/2006 5:50:45 AM)

While we are scraping all the cities for forces, it seems silly to leave 2 garrisons in Maine in addition to the one in the fort. They need to come forward this turn while I still have my RR points available.

[image]local://upfiles/9706/B2F63331780B4717BEB32D9BDDFC8232.jpg[/image]



AU Tiger_MatrixForum -> RE: Early July 1862 (11/15/2006 5:51:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jchastain
but I don't need cotton gin scientists to surround a city and wait for them to starve and surrender.


[&o]



jchastain -> RE: Early July 1862 (11/15/2006 5:52:59 AM)

OK, now what to do with my forces. I'll pull Keyes back up south of Nashville for now. The 4th will try to get there too, but it will help them get out if we have friendly territory for them to enter. And that also gives me the rail lines leading into Nashville, and gets my forces close together in case I need to react to anything.

[image]local://upfiles/9706/DBE87ACE1ADD4051AF637B05FB36963E.jpg[/image]



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