RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (Full Version)

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h_h_lightcap -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/14/2006 2:32:48 AM)

Gunny try getting your hands on Peter Brune's "A Bastard of a Place" or anything else by Peter Brune---The aussies in New Guinea fought several masterfull battles vs the Japanese.
Yes, NO TANKS-----You should not start a PTO campaign in early 1942, american or anzac, with any!!!

HH



Alby -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/14/2006 2:53:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: pbhawkins

KG,
Having served with the 2/40 (captured in Ambon Indonesia early in the fight to save Australia) and the 2/12 (both Tasmanian regiments), I think you will enjoy the variation to your favourite Gyrenes versus the Japs for Aussies versus the Japs!


Thanks, Peter. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna work on a special customized ANZAC OOB, with ONLY Australian units. Maybe I'll call it "The Digger Mod".


Alot of the Anzac oob in enhanced is seperated now, with AUS and NZ troops so labeled IIRC



KG Erwin -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/14/2006 3:18:05 AM)

I saw that, Alby. Trying to figure out a realistic core for the Aussies in 1942 is what I'm working on.

I only have a basic battalion structure. I will have four rifle companies, a mortar platoon, a pioneer platoon, a carrier platoon, and maybe a AA platoon. The AT platoon wasn't needed in the PTO. The 1943 Jungle Battalion included a scout element, too.

In any case, this core force is infantry-heavy, which suits jungle warfare. The distribution of support elements is what's got me puzzled.

A disadvantage is that I already know, in general terms, how the Japanese pick their forces. So, my natural inclination is to pick counters for them, i.e.,. lots of MGs and mortars.

For the Aussies, though, in 1942, there were shortages of many items. I have to take this into account. They had to rely in a large part on home weapons production. Still working on it.




vahauser -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/14/2006 3:37:17 AM)

Erwin,

My personal gaming preference is the ETO rather than the PTO, mainly due to the greater variety of terrain and weather and opponents in the ETO.

My planned ANZAC campaign will focus on a small ("double-strength" battalion) combat group that will be shuttled all over the world, starting in the late summer of 1940 in North Africa.  I just like the idea of getting my licks in against all the major Axis allies (Germany, Japan, and Italy) under all sorts of different conditions. 



KG Erwin -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/14/2006 4:28:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Erwin,

My personal gaming preference is the ETO rather than the PTO, mainly due to the greater variety of terrain and weather and opponents in the ETO.

My planned ANZAC campaign will focus on a small ("double-strength" battalion) combat group that will be shuttled all over the world, starting in the late summer of 1940 in North Africa.  I just like the idea of getting my licks in against all the major Axis allies (Germany, Japan, and Italy) under all sorts of different conditions. 



I have no problem with that. I think a misconception started a long time ago -- the New Zealanders contributed one division to the Allied war effort, but the lion's share was done by the Aussies. Nevertheless, the WWI designation of ANZAC was put into the database.

If you wanna do the Aussies right, then, yeah, you start against the Germans. However, they vastly reconfigured their TOEs to match their later commitments against the Japanese. This makes upgrade paths questionable.

The Aussies had NO tanks in New Guinea in 1942. So, what do you do? I have no idea. The old argument about type 1 vs type 2 gaming comes back. It is meaningless. What do you want to achieve? That's all that matters, right?

My philosophy: I want to learn about the history, set the historical parameters in the game as best I can, and see if I can do better in the conduct of the battles.

Another gamer has a different approach? That's fine with me.

No one way of gaming is better than any other, IMHO.

I also love the AARs/DARs. As long as the parameters are defined, then take literary license and make them entertaining. I think it's a great outlet.




KG Erwin -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/14/2006 5:42:10 AM)

A photo of a "typical " Aussie infantryman in WWII:



[image]local://upfiles/813/36EF896F64A744EEB1A2F4FBF49CB456.jpg[/image]



vahauser -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/14/2006 6:52:20 AM)

Erwin,

My "Group Andrews" is loosely based on the precedent of the US-Canadian 1st SSF.  It is a fictional small combined force of Australian and New Zealand volunteers who want to get into the fighting as soon as possible. 

The small size of Group Andrews (a "double-strength" battalion) allows it to "fall through the historical cracks" as it were, and since it is so small it can be shuttled all over the place from theater to theater quickly.

Also, since Group Andrews will be required to fight under every condition possible against a wide variety of opponents, it will have to be a combined-arms force.  This, in turn, means that Group Andrews cannot be custom-tailored to a specific combat environment (for example, a Group that stays in the PTO can be much more custom-tailored for its environment than Group Andrews will be).  This, in turn, means that Group Andrews might not always have the best possible mix of troop types for the battle at hand. 

This is a deliberate choice on my part to have a "general-purpose" force since it requires me to be more creative sometimes in the way I approach and resolve specific combat problems.



robot -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/14/2006 2:47:47 PM)

Are they using the sticks to fight the Japs dont see many guns there.



KG Erwin -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/15/2006 1:42:14 AM)

For what it's worth, I've decided to model my core force after the 39th Battalion, a militia unit.

The Wiki article about this unit is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/39th_(Militia)_Battalion

I picked them because it was pointed out that the average age of this unit was just 18-19, and they were rated very low in training standards before being sent to New Guinea.

Despite that, they rendered valuable service in 1942 during the Kokoda Trail campaign, and were disbanded in 1943 due to the heavy losses they suffered.

So, if I can keep them intact, why not do an alternate history, and keep them on the rolls until 1945?

My next project is to search out all mentions of the unit in the Official History, and start compiling a list of identified sub-unit commanders.

For Robot -- If you look closer, each man has his right hand on his rifle, and in his left his walking stick. That photo also influenced my decision to call my core force the 39th.

Why go to all this background study? Well, if I'm gonna put the Marines aside for the time being, I figured I should start immersing myself properly so I can identify with these blokes.

I have a rough idea of how the CMF battalions were organized, so I'm well on the way to purchasing the force and initializing the campaign. The 39th had five companies (A-E), with E Company being the MG platoon organized as line infantry. However, I'm gonna keep E Coy as a weapons outfit. I have a feeling I'm gonna need those Vickers MMGs (all six of them), plus four 3-in mortars (one per company).




h_h_lightcap -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/15/2006 2:31:08 AM)

Gunny,

1/3 of the book i recommended to you is about Kokoda---and the 39th is in it.....


HH



KG Erwin -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/15/2006 4:36:55 AM)

On Amazon, I saw an an upcoming Osprey book (due in March 2007) on the Australian Army in WWII. I may pre-order this.

I have the three-volume Osprey USMC PTO series, which was written by Gordon Rottman, and has proven invaluable in my TOE research. BTW, hh lightcap, I liked your description of the USMC as "firepower kings". It fits well. [;)]



KG Erwin -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/16/2006 12:59:18 AM)

Something else I found: pdf files of complete scanned War Diaries for many Australian Infantry Battalions, including the 39th.

See this list : http://www.awm.gov.au/diaries/ww2/diary.asp?diary=148

The amount of historical information the Australian government has digitized and made freely available is pretty amazing.

The last piece of the puzzle is to find documentation on official TOEs, or Field Manuals.






KG Erwin -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/16/2006 1:09:30 AM)

An odd thing about the 39th is the way they numbered their rifle platoons. Company A is 7, 8 and 9. Coy B (10-12), Coy C (13-15), and Coy D (16-18). There's also a HQ Coy, an MG Coy, a Carrier Platoon, and (I think) a Mortar Platoon. So, is this where I find Platoons 1 thru 6?

While the Official Records are great in telling about who, where, and what, they are weak in describing how. So, I wrote the archives bureau to see if I can locate some Official Tables of Organisation & Equipment for AMF units. Did they adhere strictly to the British model, or did they develop their own? I don't know. Hopefully I will get a response.



wulfir -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/16/2006 6:41:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
So, is this where I find Platoons 1 thru 6?


Probably in the HQ and Support Companies..., though if the 39th was equipped as a regular battalion is questionable. I would guess they had minimal support. IIRC some Australian officer figured mortars could not be used along the Kokoda Track and thus the Australians brought none (unlike the Japs).

HQ Coy
- No. 1 Signals platoon
- No. 2 Administrative Platoon

Support Coy
- No. 3 Mortar platoon (3in)
- No. 4 Bren Carrier Platoon
- No. 5 Assault Pioneer Platoon
- No. 6 Anti-tank platoon

A Coy
- No. 7 platoon
- No. 8 platoon
- No. 9 platoon

B Coy
- No. 10 platoon
- No. 11 platoon
- No. 12 platoon

C Coy
- No. 13 platoon
- No. 14 platoon
- No. 15 platoon

D Coy
- No. 16 platoon
- No. 17 platoon
- No. 18 platoon



KG Erwin -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/16/2006 7:08:55 PM)

Thanks for the info, wulfir. As Flashfyre earlier stated, most of the support units would be designated as "Left Out of Battle" for jungle ops.

In the case of the 39th's MG Coy (Capt Merritt), they apparently were deployed as a reduced-strength infantry coy (Coy E) for the Kokoda campaign.



omegaall -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/17/2006 12:16:38 AM)

AMF org 1940 to Dec 1942 and in some cases early 1943.
Pl numbering starts with Sig Pl as Pl No 1.

On Kokada NO 2" mors till AIF units arrived. Some 3" mors but few due to weight some with MMGs. Also in some cases only Lewis LMG. Many AMF Bns at this point did not have Brens issues. 39th Bn had Brens issued just before they went on the track. Poorly trained in their use and suffered from that. The ATR was used through out teh PNG campaings as well as the PIAT. The ATR was also a good hunting rifle for crocs..
Few 6 pdr AT guns used. Mainly 2 pdrs when they arrived. AT Regts were also issued with the 4.2" mor instead of the AT gun, (2 pdr). Stuarts only used ONCE in PNG or SWP and them not used again. This was at Gona. Grants/Lees not used by Aust till abiout 45 and only once. Never fired an angry shot when deployed. Main tank Matildas, the Gun tank the Cs tank and Flame. CS tanks mainly HE few smoke rounds. Matilds should be used as a min of 2 gun tanks with 1 CS tank as a troop.




[image]local://upfiles/9612/A98CDFE34FC14BD58A78439075887BD2.jpg[/image]



omegaall -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/17/2006 12:18:21 AM)

post dec 42 Tropical Bn org AMF and AIF.


[image]local://upfiles/9612/9984EB0EE67C48A2864EF9AAEA1A85A1.jpg[/image]



KG Erwin -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/17/2006 1:50:50 AM)

To omegaall: thank you. [&o]



KG Erwin -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/17/2006 2:05:52 AM)

On long campaign structure, using the Brit template: unless a customized Aussie campaign is devised, some compromises must be made. For the PTO, you gotta start in January 1942, and your first battle will likely be in some place called Kluang, in Malaysia, as the initial Japanese offensive is in full swing.

I tried starting in June or July 1942, and the purchase screens were all screwed up. Start in September, and your first battle jumps forward to Nov 1943.

So, apart from getting the forces correct, the places will definitely be in an alternate-history timeline. Can't be helped.



KG Erwin -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/17/2006 2:24:47 AM)

So, I edited the ANZAC OOB database to conform with constructing the 39th Battalion in early 1942.

I have an AU Militia Inf Sec in unit slot 139, with .303 SMLE no. 4, the .303 Bren LMG, the .45 cal Thompson SMG, and the No.36 Mills Grenade.

I also created a separate formation (1141) for a single Universal Carrier (to transport a 3-in. mortar).

According to its war diary, the 39th was reconfigured to match AIF TOEs in Sept 1942. The war diaries make NO mention of ATRs for this battalion, and only a passing reference to the AA section/platoon.



KG Erwin -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/19/2006 3:14:20 AM)

I've gotten a lot of help from other gamers, which I appreciate, but to translate this to a long campaign (using the British template) still offers insurmountable problems.

I used my altered OOB to start a long campaign -- it put me in Malacca, on a defend mission. The Japs are deploying light tanks, and I have no defense against them. My attached Vickers MMGs of the MG Company can shred attacking infantry, but my AT capability is minimal. A few Boys ATRs, but that's it. I suppose that's the price I must pay to "go Aussie" in this format.

The cold hard fact is this -- the AMF in the Pacific was basically an infantry force, with little tank support or heavy weapons support of any kind. If the enemy has tanks that you can't destroy by close assault, you're in a bad way.

Now, I admire the Aussies' esprit and guts, but these things don't penetrate armor. You gotta climb aboard that tank, find a ventilating slit or an open hatch, toss in a couple of Mills grenades with very short fuzes, and hope you can jump off the thing before it brews up.



KG Erwin -> RE: An Anzac Long Campaign? (12/20/2006 1:15:06 AM)

OK, now with Pure Sim 2007's final patch being released, I'm putting "The Aussie Project" on hold for an indefinite time period. I'm moving slightly past WWII, as my baseball universe starts in 1946 (thus the '46 Pirates jersey logo).

Thanks to the guys that helped, both here and behind the scenes. I'm keeping all my notes, but I'm putting SPWaW "on the shelf" for now. I'll be back, but I don't know when.

Have a happy holiday season, guys. See ya later.



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