Purpose of Corps (Full Version)

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SeaWolF K -> Purpose of Corps (12/3/2006 5:41:02 AM)

I've been playing as the Union and am trying to figure out what purpose Corps serve (except maybe as stand alone units) because they do not seem to enable an army to contain any more divisions which allow higher units to hold more brigades.

Quoting from the manual: An Union Army can have 8 units attached (Corps, Divisions, or directly attached Brigades) with no more than 4 Corps. A Union Corps can have 8 units attached (Divisions or directly attached Brigades) but no more than 4 Divisions. And a Division can have 5 brigades attached (manual states 4)

These limits make sense to a degree to try and force subordinate commands to be created to increase the size of the army

Now this seems to indicate that you can attach four Corps with three divisions each to an Army, but after building several Corps containers to put the AOP into a real organization and not the three armies it starts as (Historical till March 1862 when the Union went to the corps structure by the way), I get the message that "no more division may be attached" when trying to add the third three division corps to the remade AOP. So it appears that there are additional limits applied and you get no benefit from have the historical corps subordinate commands and should just attach 8 divisions directly (and save the resources). Am I missing something?



Hard Sarge -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/3/2006 5:51:58 AM)

Well, I got to speak from the CSA side, as that was my area for testing

I make them to combine my Divs with a good leader in charge

and use my Corps as my moble force

I may end up with 2 Armies, but a number of Corps (only if I get fancy, I normally have 1 Army)

I have not really looked at the ideal numbers or units to add to a Army or a Corps





SeaWolF K -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/3/2006 5:59:44 AM)

Make sense for a stand alone issue (Use them for the Union in the West that way), but to have any chance against the ANV you need large numbers (quantity has a quality all of its own) to have a chance and after having the AOP wings bounce of the ANV piecemeal (Union coordination leave something to be desired) I'm trying to build one unit to attack it.




chris0827 -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/3/2006 6:01:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaWolF K

I've been playing as the Union and am trying to figure out what purpose Corps serve (except maybe as stand alone units) because they do not seem to enable an army to contain any more divisions which allow higher units to hold more brigades.

Quoting from the manual: An Union Army can have 8 units attached (Corps, Divisions, or directly attached Brigades) with no more than 4 Corps. A Union Corps can have 8 units attached (Divisions or directly attached Brigades) but no more than 4 Divisions. And a Division can have 5 brigades attached (manual states 4)

These limits make sense to a degree to try and force subordinate commands to be created to increase the size of the army

Now this seems to indicate that you can attach four Corps with three divisions each to an Army, but after building several Corps containers to put the AOP into a real organization and not the three armies it starts as (Historical till March 1862 when the Union went to the corps structure by the way), I get the message that "no more division may be attached" when trying to add the third three division corps to the remade AOP. So it appears that there are additional limits applied and you get no benefit from have the historical corps subordinate commands and should just attach 8 divisions directly (and save the resources). Am I missing something?



You can mod the number of units per container by changing the AcwPlayers file.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/3/2006 6:41:55 AM)

for the Union, I am getting 2 Corps of 3 Divs into a Army, with enough room left over for another Div to be added

which comes out to about 105 K in troops





Twotribes -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/3/2006 6:50:21 AM)

The point is the manual says we can have 4 Corps in an Army. Why would we assume it meant 4 corps with just 2 divisions each? If the limit for an Army is the number of Division containers there is no point to Corps at all.

I know how to change the limits, I dont understand why I should have to. The clear implication to me ( and it sure sounds like it was the same to others) was that one would use Corps to INCREASE the size of the Army.

Lets think about it a moment... why waste the effort and cost on getting 2 barracks in a city and then pay the cost of building a Corps Container as the Union when you already have 6 Armies. Just build Divisions until you fill your Armies and then if you need more make the some Corps for WEAKER stand alone units. Might as well skip Corps all together and build 3 Barracks and make Armies. ( well except then you need more 4Star Generals and that means a million acadamies.

Ok donr bitching....

Am I to understand the Containers are all controlled by max number of Brigades? As the Union 5 for a Division , I believe 18 for a Corps and I think it was 34 for an Army?

Why do I ask? Because I cant really change the number for containers till I am sure what the number means.

And along that line of questioning, is there a way to change how many Division containers a Corps will hold and How many Corps an Army Container will hold? If I am going to have to make the changes I might as well have that information also.



histgamer -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/3/2006 6:53:30 AM)

Huge corps guys.(napoleonic size not civil war size civil war corps were rarely more than 30,000 men) When i get the game ill mod the corps numbers allowed and rebuild the AOP in its full 7 corps glory (though admitadly small corps)



Hard Sarge -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/3/2006 7:03:47 AM)

not sure

I can add 7 Divs into a Army, or 2 Crops of 3 Divs with a extra Div tossed in, so I do not see a gain in size, maybe in command





chris0827 -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/3/2006 7:07:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

The point is the manual says we can have 4 Corps in an Army. Why would we assume it meant 4 corps with just 2 divisions each? If the limit for an Army is the number of Division containers there is no point to Corps at all.

I know how to change the limits, I dont understand why I should have to. The clear implication to me ( and it sure sounds like it was the same to others) was that one would use Corps to INCREASE the size of the Army.

Lets think about it a moment... why waste the effort and cost on getting 2 barracks in a city and then pay the cost of building a Corps Container as the Union when you already have 6 Armies. Just build Divisions until you fill your Armies and then if you need more make the some Corps for WEAKER stand alone units. Might as well skip Corps all together and build 3 Barracks and make Armies. ( well except then you need more 4Star Generals and that means a million acadamies.

Ok donr bitching....

Am I to understand the Containers are all controlled by max number of Brigades? As the Union 5 for a Division , I believe 18 for a Corps and I think it was 34 for an Army?

Why do I ask? Because I cant really change the number for containers till I am sure what the number means.

And along that line of questioning, is there a way to change how many Division containers a Corps will hold and How many Corps an Army Container will hold? If I am going to have to make the changes I might as well have that information also.


You can change the number of brigades that each container holds. I'm changing a union division to only 4 brigades and confederates to 5. Divisions and corps are too big in this game. Confederate divisions were usually larger than Union divisions but still rarely had more than 10k troops. I also am changing the union corps to hold 12 brigades and the confederate to hold 15. This will allow them both to hold 3 full size divisions. Armies I changed to hold 60 brigades for the Union and 45 for the confederate. You could never match the strength of the army of the Potomac the way it was originally set. A bit large if units are full strength but most shouldn't be. It didn't make any sense they way it was set originally. The max strength for confederate armies was higher than Union. There was only one major battle in the war where the confederate army outnumbered the union army. Lowered the max confederate brigade strength to 3k too. It made no sense to have it higher than the union and I may lower both sides even more. Brigades were never 3k men past 1861 and usually a lot less. Of course I haven't tested any of this yet. I'm still working on general arrival times.



Steely Glint -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/3/2006 7:14:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaWolF K
(Union coordination leave something to be desired)


Not enough.



histgamer -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/3/2006 8:27:09 AM)

Chris if your looking total number of men, it is possible to have the union army have 100,000 men and the CSA 75,000 men with their respective corps. If you have smaller corps so that in many cases Union corps were the size of an oversized rebel division its possible to remake the 7 corps army that fought at gettysburg. Though i understand it may be very hard to rebuild the 1862 Peninsula campaign army of 120,000 men.



chris0827 -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/3/2006 8:52:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

Chris if your looking total number of men, it is possible to have the union army have 100,000 men and the CSA 75,000 men with their respective corps. If you have smaller corps so that in many cases Union corps were the size of an oversized rebel division its possible to remake the 7 corps army that fought at gettysburg. Though i understand it may be very hard to rebuild the 1862 Peninsula campaign army of 120,000 men.


Not sure where you got those numbers. In the unmodded game the max union army size is 105k and max confederate is 168k. I'd like to know where this idea of large rebel divisions came from. A.P Hill's division early in the war had as many as 17k but not for long. The rebel divisions at gettysburg averaged 7k.



histgamer -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/3/2006 8:54:47 AM)

Some Union corps were around 10,000 men around the time of gettysburg.

The Union army at gettysburg was less than 105,000.



chris0827 -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/3/2006 9:21:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

Some Union corps were around 10,000 men around the time of gettysburg.

The Union army at gettysburg was less than 105,000.



The enlistments of nearly 20k men had expired in the weeks before Gettysburg and they lost more than 17k at Chancellorsville. The only time the AotP was weaker was after Grant's first month in command when they lost more than 50k.

I said in an earlier post that the average confederate division was larger. In this game the confederates can pack 24k troops into a division. That's crazy. They can put 72k into a corps. That's crazier.



histgamer -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/3/2006 9:24:26 AM)

I agree thats closer to a napoleonic type Corps where Soult had a 40,000 man corps and such.



Sheytan -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/3/2006 10:24:26 AM)

Hi,

I have formed combined arms corps that contain 3 divisions 4inf/1artx2 div, and one div with 4inf/1cav plus...siege artillery(Union). A corps container is great to have short of a army container. FURTHER...a army container can "train" the corps containers to modifiy thier attributes. If however a army container can in thoery contain 8 units( I have no tested this to see if 8 corps containers will fit) that makes sense to me, why shouldnt it hold 8 corps containers? If you can build 8 corps containers though lol thats amazing.

Sheytan



Jim D Burns -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/3/2006 2:15:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaWolF K

I've been playing as the Union and am trying to figure out what purpose Corps serve


One benefit of Corps is it allows those 3 star Generals to affect more than just the few brigades in a single division. The Army or Corp commander gives routed units in their formation an extra chance at rallying.

Since only 4 star generals can command an Army, 3 stars are wasted in just a single division, so they need a Corps to enhance their command to its full potential.

Also it adds an additional command staff to formations so you should see more supply wagons if an army has 2-3 corps instead of just a bunch of divisions.

Overall Corps add a lot to an Armies efficiency, but in more subtle ways than simple troop numbers.

One final note to those talking about adjusting divisions down from 5 brigades to 4. Remember artillery units count as a brigade slot, so that fifth slot is there to allow a division of 4 brigades to have room for some artillery.

Jim




SeaWolF K -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/4/2006 3:02:51 AM)

Ok, but my fundamental question is: Is there supposed to be an eight division limit to Union Armies as well as a four Corps restriction?



histgamer -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/4/2006 3:04:14 AM)

Would seam unrealistic to me but i cant answer that question.



chris0827 -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/4/2006 3:26:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaWolF K

Ok, but my fundamental question is: Is there supposed to be an eight division limit to Union Armies as well as a four Corps restriction?


I believe it's 8 containers with a maximum of 35 brigades.



Paper Tiger -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/5/2006 3:17:46 PM)

Perhaps it should be 8 containers, at the immediate level below the army, So you could have 3 corps + 3 directly attached divisions + 2 directly attached brigades. Then you could limit each corps to 3 divisions so you would get 9 divisions in your three corps plus in this example 3 directly attached = 12 divisions. You could pack these divisions any way you want up to the maximum of X brigades per army and Y per Corps.
Personnally I would prefer to see 3 or 4 containers in an Army with 3 or 4 in a Corps and 4 or 5 in a division, and allow 1 or 2 brigades in a Corps and perhaps 3 in an army in addition to the sub containers.
I would replace the starting Armies in most cases with Corps leaving only 1 Army of the Potomac for the Union and giving it 3 Corps
You want more armies and corps build them.
Similar situation for the South Mostly Corps rather than Armies but give the south it's bigger divisions and bigger brigades.
Hey I don't know ACW history that well I'm not American but it seems to me mostly the "Armies" were roughly a Decent Corps size. 



elmo3 -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/5/2006 5:23:47 PM)

Obviously OOB's changed throughout the war but for discussion purposes here are rough OOB's for Antietam and Gettysburg:

Antietam

ANV 45,000 men
First Corps (5 divisions with 21 brigades); reserve arty at corps level
Second Corps (4 divisions with 18 brigades); arty attached to divisions
Cavalry Corps (not sure of size)
Army level reserve arty (not sure of size)

AOP 87,000 men
I Corps (3 divisions with 9 brigades)
II Corps (3 divisions with 9 brigades)
V Coprs (3 divisions with 8 brigades)
VI Corps (3 divisions with 9 brigades)
IX Corps (4 divisions with 8 brigades)
XII Corps (2 Inf divisions with 5 brigades and 1 Cav division with 5 brigades)

Looking at the manual, pg 56 and working our way up the organizations we see:

USA divisions can contain 4 brigades and CSA 5. At Antietam most USA divisions had 3 brigades except for Pleasonton's Cavalry Div that had 5. Close enough. The CSA divisions averaged about 4 brigades which is within the game limits.

Both sides corps can have 8 units with no more than 3 USA divisions and 4 CSA divisions. For the USA at Antietam only the IX Corps violates the division limit. The CSA First Corps had 5 divisions so that is over the game limit as well. Not bad though.

In the game both armies can have 8 units attached with the CSA getting one more corps (5) than the USA. The AOP really violates the game limits with 6 corps. The ANV only has 3 corps, 4 if we assume Pendleton's arty reserve was a corps.

So not bad overall with a few exceptions.

Gettysburg

ANV 72,000 men
First Corps (3 divisions with 11 brigades; and an arty reserve)
Second Corps (3 divisions with 13 brigades; and an arty reserve)
Third Corps (3 divisions with 13 brigades; and an arty reserve)
Stuart's Cavalry Div (6 brigades - 2 not present); and a horse arty unit)
Imboden's Command (cavalry)

AOP 94,000 men
I Corps (3 divisions with 7 brigades)
II Corps (3 divisions with 10 brigades)
III Corps (3 divisions; one not present with 6 brigades present)
V Corps (3 divisions with 8 brigades)
VI Corps (3 divisions with 7 brigades)
XI Corps (3 divisions with 6 brigades)
XII Corps (2 divisions with 6 brigades)
Cavalry Corps (3 divisions with 8 brigades and horse arty)
Arty Reserve (5 brigades)

Clearly the AOP violates the game limits at the Army level but other than that is looks pretty good. The ANV is within game limits at all levels if we don't count Stuart's two missing brigades.


So IMO the game limits do a pretty good job allowing people to build armies and lower organizations that were being built during the war. The exception in both cases is the number of USA corps that were historically in an army. Not sure if the designers want to reconsider this or not. It is possible that these two battles were the only cases where real life USA armies violated the game limits.



Paper Tiger -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/5/2006 6:02:45 PM)

OK so if you as suggested make it a max of 8 containers DIRECTLY beneath the army you get
Antietnam
ANV 3 corps + 1 attachment (brigade) = 4 total 40-45? brigades
AoP 6 corps = 6  total 54 brigades

Gettysburg
ANV  3 corps + 2 Divisions? = 5 total 43 brigades?
AoP 8 corps + 1 Div = 9 total 63 brigades

Well it suggests that either the Union armies should be bigger or 2+ Union Armies were involved. To me I would still say that perhaps it would be better to have fewer armies and more Corps and to allow nested divisions not to count against maximum containers in an army, so a division does not count against the maximum number of containers for an army if it is nested within a corps.

Perhaps a Logistics upgrade or series of them allowing larger numbers of brigades within an army and reliant on a minimum number of Academies you need to get a 5 star general, and a second level increasing it further once you have 2x5star generals but again requiring the Logistics upgrade.



Paper Tiger -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/5/2006 6:04:35 PM)

Perhaps at this point you could also make the number of containers in an army part of the upgrade path, 4/6/8 containers?



elmo3 -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/5/2006 6:13:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paper Tiger

...

To me I would still say that perhaps it would be better to have fewer armies and more Corps and to allow nested divisions not to count against maximum containers in an army, so a division does not count against the maximum number of containers for an army if it is nested within a corps.

...


Hold on now. [:)] Are you saying that divisions within a corps count against the 8 unit max for an army now?! That makes no sense. I've never looked that closely at it but that can't be right. I must be misunderstanding what you are saying.

Edited for clarity



Paper Tiger -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/5/2006 6:19:07 PM)

I think that is how it stands at the moment, not how it should stand.
But I could be wrong never yet built many corps, as I can't see the need at the moment.



elmo3 -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/5/2006 6:26:28 PM)

In this pic from Gil's AAR I count 9 divisions in the ANV so I think you are musinderstanding how the containers work. The way I read the manual none of these divisions count against the 8 unit limit for the army as all are within a corps.

[image]local://upfiles/16018/A0D0FA5EB9274FF09D6036755FE35502.jpg[/image]



Paper Tiger -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/5/2006 6:44:44 PM)

OK my bad. Still with max of 5 brigades to a division and max of 8 containers to an Army not a lot of reason to have corps as well as divisions.



elmo3 -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/5/2006 7:05:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Paper Tiger

OK my bad. Still with max of 5 brigades to a division and max of 8 containers to an Army not a lot of reason to have corps as well as divisions.


Without any corps a CSA army could have 40 brigades (8 divisions of 5 brigades each). With 5 Corps plus 3 directly attached divisions, assuming each unit is maxed out, the same army could theoretically have 135 brigades.

There are two other advantages of corps that have been mentioned already. They can be used as maneuver elements and pack a lot more punch than a division. They can be commanded by 3 star generals so if you have good 3 star generals it makes more sense to have them commanding a corps than a division.

Not trying to sell you on using corps, just pointing out some of the advantages.



Paper Tiger -> RE: Purpose of Corps (12/5/2006 7:40:59 PM)

cept there is a maximum number of brigades to an army as well and it works out roughly the same as having the corps maxed out on divisions only.
Also you could use could use corps and or divisions but with a corps being able to hold near as much as an army what is the point of having 3 wings of AoP all of Army size? When a corps can hold 18 brigades? at 3k =54k that is as big as most armies.
So say you have a couple of corps out there acting as minnie armies and max your armies out on divisions alone. Still at the same number of maximum brigades per army or there abouts. How does it benefit you to re-organise units into a hierarchy? 





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