Long Campaign-First Assault Mission Nightmare (Full Version)

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KG Erwin -> Long Campaign-First Assault Mission Nightmare (8/5/2000 10:29:00 AM)

I've started a few long campaigns with what I would consider a very strong kampfgruppe. I start as the Germans in Sept 39 with two PzIII platoons, a Pz IV platoon, two rifle platoons mounted in trucks, an engineer platoon in Sdkfz 251s, and an 88 section mounted in Sdkfz 7s. That's my standard core group. I can kick butt generally in any advance or defend mission the computer can present for me. HOWEVER, when it comes to assault missions, invariably I am outnumbered and presented with a vitually impregnable defense in depth. My question to you long campaign players is, how the hell do you guys deal with this? It seems to be a recurring theme, and I have yet to figure out how do break through without reinforcements or a significantly raised support point allocation. What's the secret? Or is this just the ultimate test for would-be commanders in the long campaigns? ------------------ "Klotzen, nicht Kleckern (roughly translated, 'Use the fist, not the fingers')"--Heinz Guderian



McGib -> (8/5/2000 11:04:00 AM)

I dont think there is any sure fire combo of units but here is what I normaly pick for core units for the Germans: 3 platoons of Pz38's 3 platoons of inf in 251's 1 sec of armoured cars(usually 221's) 1 sec of 88's and a command vehicle for A0 I pick this way thinking to upgrade later. Pz38's to PzIII's I take the 50mm mortars away from the inf platoons attaching them to A0 and upgrading to bigger arty and the 221's to PzIV's I buy sdfk 7's from support cause you dont normally need them in delay or defend. You could go with all truck infantry to save points (I'd make them the first upgrade) but just hope for a defensive first mission. One last thing, for my onboard arty I buy 1 ammo carrier to allow me to fire arty the entire battle. Hope this helps.



Kluckenbill -> (8/5/2000 11:24:00 AM)

Yes it can be really tough at first. I did a long campaign as the Germans and I though I had been sent to Verdun in 1916. The Poles were dug in across the entire map! Take some onboard artillery (even 81mm mortars will help) and ordnance trucks for ammo supply. When you find the dug in grunts pound them for several turns before assaulting them. Also shhot up the infantry with tanks from 3 or 4 hexes away tro soften them up for the assault. Take lots of 'leg' Recon units as support forces. These are cheap and pretty fast and relatively durable. They save your core forces from geting chewed up too soon. Concentrate on taking a single objective area and wait for the inevitable AI counterattack. When they attack, you will be defending and the AI will be in the open and you can chew them up for a change. Finally, save often so you can start a few turns earlier if its a total disaster.



Skotty -> (8/5/2000 11:28:00 AM)

Here is a rough OOB setup I used in an UK v German in 41-42 long campaign, still in progress.... 2 Matilda Plt 2 Honey Plt 4 AC Plt, Humbler and Marn 8 Motor Inf Plt 2 Foot Inf Plt This is obviously a bit bigger a core force than you have, but I can share my dealings with assaults. After getting pummeled after my first assault, I setup my aux forces approx like such: 1 4.5in or 5in Bty 1 25 pounder Bn 2 foot engineering Plt I lay A LOT of smoke in front of my line of advance. I try to setup a very narrow lane of advance, usually a 4 to 6 hexes wide. I then inch my eng plts up line abreast till I hit a mine field. I then attempt to move more eng to face the mine hex to clear it faster. Behind that I move my core force in a tight stacked column, usually trying to cram an entire plt in a hex. I then plot a fire mission 3 or 4 hexes in front of the eng plt and start a rolling barrage towards an victory flag objective area. Basically I try to punch a narrow lane on the flank of a defensive line covered by lots of smoke and then take the cloest objective area from the front after heavy bombardment. Then I try to deeply penetrate to the rear and sweep up behind the remaining opbjectives. The AI doesn't seem to call fire missions on forces it can't see, so I can effectively bunch my units up behind smoke screens. Don't try this with a human opponent cuz its obvious what u r up to. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] When you take a flank obj area, the AI tends to move entrenched units from the other areas to attempt to take them back. That is where I use my foot grunts and 3in mortars to harrass the AI's blocking force. In this campaign, some of the toughest units I came up against in assaults is the enemy AA units direct firing. Its the only unit where my tommies were up against the Itailians that caused major casualties.Their inf CO's are in rout, but the 25mm AA units that are dug in just plug away until I can run them over with my Matildas... a long process indeed. Of course these are desert battles so I am sure europe battles will play out a bit differently. A side note, i have experienced the uber-mench diplaced crews attacking armor in the open from 2 hex ranges. I just usually pop off pot shots at them to keep them pinned down to save op fire against bigger targets.



KG Erwin -> (8/5/2000 10:17:00 PM)

Thanks to all of you for some excellent advice. I usually expend my support points on air strike elements and offboard arty. They do tend to get used up too quickly. I saw on another post somewhere a link to the Handbook on German Forces which was prepared by the US Army. I think I might download that document and bone up on the actual tactics the Americans encountered. Lets keep this post going. I would like to hear from some other gamers regarding their tactical techniques. Thanks again for the replies I've gotten so far. Glenn.



orc4hire -> (8/6/2000 2:09:00 AM)

The key to assaults, for me, in the long German campaign I'm playing now is Engineers. I buy a full company of them. Pick where I want to break the enemy line (usually along one map edge or the other; not up the middle where I can be subjected to a crossfire). Line up the engineers there, my PG company behind them, my Panzer company behind them. Use 1 or 2 batteries to screen the open flank of my approach route with smoke, the rest to start softening up the likly defender positions. Move up just the engineers, let them find the enemy mines and start clearing them. When a hex is cleared, use that squad to double up with another on clearing the hex next to it. The defenders will attempt to interfere ("An obstacle not covered by fire is not an obstacle.") but with artillery support, and smoke as needed, the Engineers can suppress the defensive fire and finish the job. When a few breaches have been opened, I move my follow on troops up a bit, then when most of the 12 hex front has been cleared I push them in to complete the Break In process and begin the Break Through; fighting off the inevitable counter attack and fanning out to take the objective hexes.



rexmonday -> (8/6/2000 8:06:00 AM)

my tiny tip is not to buy offboard artillery or airstrikes with the support force: 1. offboard arty can get frighted and run away after firing its first barrage and being hit by enemy counter-battery fire, while onboard will at least give you a chance to rally it and hold on to it, rather than just loading up the trucks and running away. 2. the range of the heavy onboard artillery still lets you hit just about anywhere on the map, east-west at least, I haven't really played on the monster north-south maps yet. 3. onboard arty can be reloaded with an ordnance section, yeah, considerably slower in SPWAW than in other versions, meaning it can keep firing barrages for turn after turn after turn. 4. airstrikes... eek! it seems to me that these aren't worth it at all, for the points they cost you you can get a helluva lot of leg infantry. If it doesn't sound too callous, you can just march these kids into hell without worrying particularly about their survival. they should also provide the first line of your defense when you are trying to hold ground. Airstrikes, with their lowered effectiveness, both to spot and to kill, just don't look like they are worth it to mee. The enemy just about always has a couple of AA's hidden somewhere on the map, which can drive off even the dedicated ground attack planes on their first sweep. Also if a plane gets hit and goes down, that is a lot of points you have to make up later. 5. tanks? I don't know if you think you really need them - I look at it this way, a tank can get brewed up with one shot, whereas infantry always seem to absorb a couple of shots before they start to disband. I am a big infantry fan in this game, but when you need tanks, YOU NEED TANKS.



Beantown -> (8/6/2000 7:59:00 PM)

Smoke, smoke and more smoke...I usually have one support PZ platoon (PZ IV's) in my core force beacuse of all the early German tanks they can throw pinpoint smoke. In assualt scenarios, I usually take some recon (I find motorcycles work best..long range and the AI cannot resist them) to hopefully get the pillboxes or engineers or other nasties to open up and reveal themselves, then I have the accompanying PZ IV's smoke them directly in front. This allows me to move up engineers or even in some cases flank the strongpoint. I agree about airstrikes, at least early war...waste of points. The points, I agree, are often better spent on infantry. Then again, in city fights (like the Stalingrad scenarios) a certain percentage of casulaties is unavoidable. Artillery is quite useful, as supression is one large factor in getting up close and personal.



Pack Rat -> (8/7/2000 3:33:00 AM)

Recon, find the mines. Onboard arty, soften up mine field, the longer you can do this the better and lay smoke if needed. Engineers, lots of them. _____________________________________________ Againest human opp. (also use above) Feint and probe keep them guessing Lay smoke in several areas along the mine fields Pop smoke in your back areas so your arty can do its work Have a plan, try to get them to commit to where you want the fight ------------------ Good hunting, Pack Rat



KG Erwin -> (8/7/2000 7:44:00 AM)

Well,guys,apart from your tactical expertise, I must ask a basic campaign setup question:How do you properly balance the AI settings to match historical tendencies? The default values seem to give a definite plus handicap to the AI in all situations. These primarily apply to force allocations. Could there be certain nation standards established for future versions of SPWAW? That is, will the OPFORs be more realistically chosen given the period of time represented? Maybe it's just me, but I see a definite inbalance in the AI force allocations. Is the point allocation 1:1 in the default settings? Or could I just be misreading the AI, and it simply picks the most and cheapest units for the cost? In that case, then in every battle (considering the mission), my best response is to do the same. Well, I have a problem with cluttering up the map with a bunch of second-rate troops, but if that's the only way to beat the AI, then so be it. [This message has been edited by KG Erwin (edited August 06, 2000).]



Pack Rat -> (8/7/2000 9:39:00 AM)

For the AI generated campiagns at this point we have to take what the AI throws at us. However for battles againest the AI the option for you to choose the forces for the AI is always there. Seems to me many moons ago, I set up a campaign where I picked the opposing forces in individual battles and linked them. I honestly don't remember if I did it, thought about doing it, or thought it would be a nice feature. Sounds like an option we may have in version 3 though, if I read the previews right. ------------------ Good hunting, Pack Rat



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