Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (Full Version)

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tgb -> Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/11/2006 5:40:09 PM)

I thought there was a 50/50 chance as to which side Kentucky joins (assuming neither side has troops stationed there). I've restarted about half a dozen times as the CSA at different levels, and every game Kentucky joins the Union on the 2nd or 3rd turn.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/11/2006 5:43:02 PM)

yes it can go either way

I do not think it is 50-50, but there CSA can gain Kentucky



rogeur -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/11/2006 5:43:32 PM)

I've done almost the same you did. And i had them join me once , out
of 10 or so.(all on adv lvl)



moose1999 -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/11/2006 5:45:17 PM)

I've started three games, all as the Union, and Kentucky has joined the rebels every time. [:@]
So I guess my answer to your question is yes.



Alex Gilbert -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/11/2006 5:45:18 PM)

It definitely does join the CSA sometimes. Somewhere in the forum (and perhaps in the manual as well--I have not looked) the chance was given. It is not 50-50, it is much more likely to join the union. That being said, I have had a number of games as the CSA where I got control of Kentucky. The key is to get all your forces out of there on the 1st turn. Actually, I think the AI does not tend to remove its forces that quickly, and so the CSA gets kentucky the majority of the time in my games against the AI.

Alex



Paper Tiger -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/11/2006 5:53:45 PM)

From what I read it should be 80-20 USA-CSA but it is more likely to join the side that has less forces in the state.



Mike Scholl -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/11/2006 5:58:11 PM)

I've had it go both ways, though it seems to favor the Union (makes sense, that's the way it went in real life). I've also had it "sit on the fence" for a number of months before "deciding". And the one time I Emancipated as the Union (had to, in spite of 100 gold per turn every turn, Britian had reached +6 CSA and France +5), Kentucky went Rebel the very next turn.

By the way..., has anyone else noticed that since the patch the South seems to be doing better in the "Struggle for Europe"? I've only started two games since then, but in both I'm having a much more difficult time holding the Europeans "down". In the one where I Emancipated, Britian was back up to +6 CSA within 5 turns in spite of maximum spending on 4 out of 5. Or am I just having some extremly bad luck?



Hard Sarge -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/11/2006 6:05:41 PM)

it may be bad luck, nothing was done to the Diplo rules in the patch (that I know of)

you may be getting a CSA Governor supporting Diplo with England

this is odd, as playing as CSA I normally have trouble keeping my levels with them up, so do not know if the AI is getting a bonus



dude -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/11/2006 6:54:26 PM)

I forgot where I read it but I swear it said Kentucky's entry chance was based on the number of troops from each side.  (The larger group had the worse chance... ie were considered the aggressor.)  I've kind of tested this by making a mod.  Using the standard game where the USA has more troops in Kentucky it kept siding with CSA... in my mod (I moved the union troops back across the boarder) it joins with the USA.




JudgeDredd -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/11/2006 7:33:51 PM)

They did do in my game - I am playing USA [:(]



Johnus -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/12/2006 1:08:22 AM)

The CSA player must remember that Paducah is part of Kentucky. Its easy to forget to remove troops from this province.



Mike Scholl -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/12/2006 1:18:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dude

I forgot where I read it but I swear it said Kentucky's entry chance was based on the number of troops from each side.  (The larger group had the worse chance... ie were considered the aggressor.)  I've kind of tested this by making a mod.  Using the standard game where the USA has more troops in Kentucky it kept siding with CSA... in my mod (I moved the union troops back across the boarder) it joins with the USA.



Remember also that the designer's have mistakenly put Ft. Henry in Kentucky..., if you garrison it as the Rebels, you are handing Kentucky to the Union.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/12/2006 1:32:48 AM)

no, I have gotten Kentucky while leaving the troops in the fort

but at times, if you think it is going to go Union early, it may be better to pull the troops, as you may not be able to change the guns in time to make it worth holding



Mike Scholl -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/12/2006 1:37:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

no, I have gotten Kentucky while leaving the troops in the fort

but at times, if you think it is going to go Union early, it may be better to pull the troops, as you may not be able to change the guns in time to make it worth holding




True, one brigade probably isn't enough to guarantee it going to the North..., but it certainly bolsters the odds. But my real point is that whomever designed the map got it wrong, and if it was in Tennessee where it belongs the problem wouldn't exist.



cdbeck -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/12/2006 2:09:55 AM)

Seems to me, if you leave Frankfurt (the capital of KY) as the USA and the CSA take it (before KY declares sides) then it hands it to them. Maybe this is my bad luck, but I pulled everything out of KY and the CSA left it all in, but still got it in about 3 games out of 6.

Son of Montfort



Tanaka -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/12/2006 3:55:21 AM)

Does the map error having fort henry in kentucky instead of in tennessee effect kentucky going to the union? In other words CSA has troops in kentucky but should not.



Artmiser -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/12/2006 4:51:23 AM)

Seems to me the AI just gets allot of money. 



Gil R. -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/12/2006 6:31:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Does the map error having fort henry in kentucky instead of in tennessee effect kentucky going to the union? In other words CSA has troops in kentucky but should not.



Any impact that garrison might have on Kentucky is not statistically significant. And since it would be foolish to withdraw a garrison from a key province, this is not something to be concerned about.



Sonny -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/14/2006 5:18:32 PM)

When I have played the Union the only time Ky decided in my favor was when I kicked the Confederates out. Next turn after I had the only troops in the state it went for the Union.



Crimguy -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/14/2006 5:23:06 PM)

I'm in mid-1862 as the rebs and KY has not decided where to go yet.  Is there a time limit?



Tanaka -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/14/2006 9:52:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Does the map error having fort henry in kentucky instead of in tennessee effect kentucky going to the union? In other words CSA has troops in kentucky but should not.



Any impact that garrison might have on Kentucky is not statistically significant. And since it would be foolish to withdraw a garrison from a key province, this is not something to be concerned about.



Just curious but will this be fixed in a future patch?



Gil R. -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (12/14/2006 11:26:32 PM)

Tanaka, what are you referring to? The location of Fort Henry, or the minor impact its garrison might have on Kentucky's decision?



Tanaka -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (1/15/2007 9:17:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

Tanaka, what are you referring to? The location of Fort Henry, or the minor impact its garrison might have on Kentucky's decision?



The map location...of course if this changes the minor impact would go away as well...



chris0827 -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (1/15/2007 9:25:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

Tanaka, what are you referring to? The location of Fort Henry, or the minor impact its garrison might have on Kentucky's decision?



The map location...


I'd like to see Kentucky split up with Lexington and southern Kentucky going to the confederates. This gives the South a chance to recruit troops from Kentucky as they historically did. In most games Kentucky joins the North and the South gets none of the 25,000 men that fought on their side.



christof139 -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (1/15/2007 9:59:12 PM)

quote:

I'd like to see Kentucky split up with Lexington and southern Kentucky going to the confederates. This gives the South a chance to recruit troops from Kentucky as they historically did. In most games Kentucky joins the North and the South gets none of the 25,000 men that fought on their side.


This would be neat. Chris



Jonathan Palfrey -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (1/16/2007 8:36:56 AM)

I liked the way Kentucky was handled in Frank Hunter's ACW game.

1. Kentucky starts with no forces of either side present. As soon as one side sends in troops, it takes offence and aligns itself with the other side. No random element. This is what happened in reality, as I understand it.

2. Both sides can recruit troops from Kentucky regardless of who 'owns' the state. This also happened in reality.



chris0827 -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (1/16/2007 9:10:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Palfrey

I liked the way Kentucky was handled in Frank Hunter's ACW game.

1. Kentucky starts with no forces of either side present. As soon as one side sends in troops, it takes offence and aligns itself with the other side. No random element. This is what happened in reality, as I understand it.

2. Both sides can recruit troops from Kentucky regardless of who 'owns' the state. This also happened in reality.


There's no way to recruit troops in this game without a city.



Jonathan Palfrey -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (1/16/2007 11:56:26 AM)

Yes, FoF has copied the Civilization Way: all things come from cities, and better things come from buildings in cities.

I think it was a rather unfortunate design decision to use this approach, but it's too fundamental to be changed in a patch, so the game will have to go on living with it.

As you say, it means that either side would have to own at least a city in Kentucky in order to recruit there. That's a distortion of reality, but not too bad a distortion.



christof139 -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (1/16/2007 6:39:04 PM)

Maybe every province should have a town, a center where building and recruiting would take place, as there usually was a main settlement or point of socio-economic and geographic importance in most counties and areas of several counties, no matter how small those points or centers may seem today.

Chris



christof139 -> RE: Does Kentucky Ever Join The CSA? (1/16/2007 6:47:41 PM)

quote:

I liked the way Kentucky was handled in Frank Hunter's ACW game.

1. Kentucky starts with no forces of either side present. As soon as one side sends in troops, it takes offence and aligns itself with the other side. No random element. This is what happened in reality, as I understand it.

2. Both sides can recruit troops from Kentucky regardless of who 'owns' the state. This also happened in reality.


There were simply more Unionits than secessionists in Kentucky and Missouri than there were Secessionists. Lincoln was originally from Kentucky. East Tennesse and other fairly large areas of the South were pro-Union, as evidenced by West Virginia seceding from Virginia. The same in most civil wars, and the English Civil Wars are a good example of divided loyalties within local regions and even within counties themselves.

Both sides did recruit in the Border States and certain areas of the South, and the majority of the people in these areas were pro-Union and supplied many more troops and gave much more support to the Union than the Confederacy. Therefore, IMHO, I believe that the majority of people in these States and regions knew that they would inevitably side with the Union if civil war did break out, and that is what happened.

Chris





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