Being unlucky with CVs (Full Version)

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Ursa MAior -> Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 7:53:04 PM)

Again on the reciieving end, I just suffered another crushing defeat on 5/28/1942 this time with the allies. My force was commanded by Mitscher and set to max (6) react to overcome my range shortage. 'Of course' I was not able to launch an attack due to the contact range of 5 hexes. I've learned from my previous battle that one should not stay too ong in one spot so this was supposed to be a hit and run attack. What should I do differently next time? Let the IJN run amok? Bring the two british CVs to AUS? Wait for wasp and try to contest the waters when I have equal numbers?

ay Air attack on TF at 66,112

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 67
D3A Val x 100
B5N Kate x 153

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 10
F4F-4 Wildcat x 44

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 9 destroyed, 10 damaged
D3A Val: 2 destroyed, 28 damaged
B5N Kate: 2 destroyed, 6 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 9 damaged
F4F-4 Wildcat: 21 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 14, on fire, heavy damage
CV Hornet, Bomb hits 12, on fire, heavy damage
CA Northampton, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CV Saratoga, Bomb hits 19, on fire, heavy damage
CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 14, on fire, heavy damage
CL Honolulu
CA Astoria, Bomb hits 1, on fire




marky -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 7:59:49 PM)

i usually wait till i have at least 4 carriers

u need to LOAD ur tfs with AA escorts, CLAAs and CAs along with AA destroyers, along with fast battleships

u cna also load sum marine wildcats on the carriers

wat i also do is have several forces with my carriers, which simply gives the ai sumthing else to hit


also keep in mind the zero gets a bonus over all allied fighters till about july if i remember right, and still


keep in mind that these jap pilots r the CREAM of the crop, trained in prewar manner wher only THE BEST were given wings



marky -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 8:01:19 PM)

also befiore u engage, u can keep ALL fighters on 100 cap, which will increase ur odds as well of course combined with a large task group and HEAVY AA escort

alweays keep the most modern destroyers with ur carriers, wen u build the TF RIGHT click on ships and select those with the highest AA value



marky -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 8:02:05 PM)

however if ur going to do a defensive fight first make sure u set ur bombers to STAND DOWN or theyll go in without escort, and that usually has bad results [:'(]


and dont go for react untill u have supremacy, that is, Hellcats and HEAVY AA escort and at LEAST 4 or 5 carriers

otherwise commanders like halsy and mitscher, who was a WISCONSIN man btw[:D]


will chase the death starz accross the pacific

and if u have the avengers, set them all to 10 percent search and max range, and try to avoid a carrier battle dtil u DO have the avengers



marky -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 8:05:38 PM)

and of course try to engage the KB within range of land based fighter cover


remember every little bit helps, and keep a stand alone ASW force with the carriers or the jap subz will make u scream in terror[X(]

just maximise ships, AA, CAP(but not at exspense of escort) number of TFs in the area, and remember that sum bombers WILL probly break thru, but if u cost them heavy in zeros the Noble Dauntlesses will blow them outta the water

the main threat to USN carriers especially early on is Kates



marky -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 8:08:54 PM)

tho i did bring 3 RN carriers with their fighters to the Pacific Fleet, so the japs would have sumthin else to bomb[:'(]

and also the RN carriers have heavier deck armor, wheras USN and IJN carriers dont really have much to speak of on their flight decks



marky -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 8:09:42 PM)

aww crap i forgot u cant delete ur own posts, sorry guyz!

[sm=00000968.gif]


but in general, before u engage the death star, make sure u got luke skywalker

[:D]


also make sure u got no ops points and their full of fuel, and DONT REFUEL RIGHT BEFORE A MAJOR BATTLE



Miller -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 8:12:45 PM)

Do not even attempt to attack the KB until every ship has had its 10/42 upgrade and TBFs have replaced the TBDs. Its as simply as that really.



marky -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 8:14:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Do not even attempt to attack the KB until every ship has had its 10/42 upgrade



another good point[sm=00000734.gif][sm=00000939.gif][sm=sterb029.gif][sm=duel.gif]

heh[:D]



Mike Scholl -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 8:18:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Do not even attempt to attack the KB until every ship has had its 10/42 upgrade and TBFs have replaced the TBDs. Its as simply as that really.




Doesn't mean you can't go out and use your CV's..., but be really sure where KB is and use them someplace else.



Ursa MAior -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 8:25:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Do not even attempt to attack the KB until every ship has had its 10/42 upgrade and TBFs have replaced the TBDs. Its as simply as that really.




Doesn't mean you can't go out and use your CV's..., but be really sure where KB is and use them someplace else.



So true. I forgot to send PBYs to Luganville so I did not have a clue where the KB was. Well it was right on the next corner. [:(]. I have not intended to attack the KB I tried to clear the way for a reinf TF to Lunga. PTs minesweepers atc were reported from there.



Sardonic -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 8:27:30 PM)

Actually I disagree. The auto-replacement rule of CV suggests that you lose the USN CV as fast as possible.
Strip the CV of the good commanders and go hunting for the IJN.
Remember to replace the TF commander as well.

He wont be expecting it.

Use the really bad CL and CA as escorts also. They get replaced as well.



kilowatts -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 8:29:55 PM)

marky has a good point ... at this point in the war no more than 2 CVs per TF for the allies. IMHO The reaction setting is useless - don't rely on it.

Generally be pro-active, not responsive. Use the carriers on specfic, preferrably defenceless, targets. If KB is not damaged or split-up then yes you'll generally need to stay out of it's way. Find something else and stomp it.

It's tough defending down in the South Pacific in '42. If the japanese want something badly enough to send a large carrier force after it there's no much you can do to prevent an attack. One option is to hang back a day or two and then attack the, hopefully, tired carriers.



Ursa MAior -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 8:45:08 PM)

Well its the first time I play the allies in a grand campaign so I have no experience in this area. Thios ws a good lesson.



Big B -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 8:57:54 PM)

Well, lots of good advice above, but let me add an observation or two.

Yes, the USN 'Big 5' can kick the crap out of the KB as early as May 42 - but you need to fight only where YOU WANT to fight - that means:
1) In friendly waters where you have the Patrol Planes and he does not.
2) Where you have a lot of Land based Air to help out and or reinforce carrier planes lost.
3) Where you have friendly ports nearby for cripples to go to - and he'll have to sail a thousand miles with burning sinking cripples.

In other words - prepare your battlefield. [;)]... no such thing as a 'Fair Fight'!

B



Miller -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 8:59:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kilowatts
Generally be pro-active, not responsive. Use the carriers on specfic, preferrably defenceless, targets.


There are very few (if any) targets out of Betty/Nell range in 1942. I learned that one the hard way.....



Ursa MAior -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 9:20:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Well, lots of good advice above, but let me add an observation or two.

Yes, the USN 'Big 5' can kick the crap out of the KB as early as May 42 - but you need to fight only where YOU WANT to fight - that means:
1) In friendly waters where you have the Patrol Planes and he does not.
2) Where you have a lot of Land based Air to help out and or reinforce carrier planes lost.
3) Where you have friendly ports nearby for cripples to go to - and he'll have to sail a thousand miles with burning sinking cripples.

In other words - prepare your battlefield. [;)]... no such thing as a 'Fair Fight'!

B


Thanks for your help.

I will ask for another good advice then. How do you defend Lunga in May 1, 1942? Most of the above does not apply.



Big B -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 9:30:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Well, lots of good advice above, but let me add an observation or two.

Yes, the USN 'Big 5' can kick the crap out of the KB as early as May 42 - but you need to fight only where YOU WANT to fight - that means:
1) In friendly waters where you have the Patrol Planes and he does not.
2) Where you have a lot of Land based Air to help out and or reinforce carrier planes lost.
3) Where you have friendly ports nearby for cripples to go to - and he'll have to sail a thousand miles with burning sinking cripples.

In other words - prepare your battlefield. [;)]... no such thing as a 'Fair Fight'!

B


Thanks for your help.

I will ask for another good advice then. How do you defend Lunga in May 1, 1942? Most of the above does not apply.


If most of the above does not apply - you are breaking the rule "Only Fight Where YOU WANT" - so don't fight there, fight at Noumea instead.
You may have to let Guadalcanal go for a while.



RUPD3658 -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 9:35:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller


quote:

ORIGINAL: kilowatts
Generally be pro-active, not responsive. Use the carriers on specfic, preferrably defenceless, targets.


There are very few (if any) targets out of Betty/Nell range in 1942. I learned that one the hard way.....



Sadly, they are cowards and will not fly against a stong CV TF without a Zero escort. In my PBEM in June 43 2 CVs are enough to make over 200 Bettys chicken out from a strike at normal range. [:@]



Ursa MAior -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 10:34:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Well, lots of good advice above, but let me add an observation or two.

Yes, the USN 'Big 5' can kick the crap out of the KB as early as May 42 - but you need to fight only where YOU WANT to fight - that means:
1) In friendly waters where you have the Patrol Planes and he does not.
2) Where you have a lot of Land based Air to help out and or reinforce carrier planes lost.
3) Where you have friendly ports nearby for cripples to go to - and he'll have to sail a thousand miles with burning sinking cripples.

In other words - prepare your battlefield. [;)]... no such thing as a 'Fair Fight'!

B


Thanks for your help.

I will ask for another good advice then. How do you defend Lunga in May 1, 1942? Most of the above does not apply.


If most of the above does not apply - you are breaking the rule "Only Fight Where YOU WANT" - so don't fight there, fight at Noumea instead.
You may have to let Guadalcanal go for a while.


Yep, seems like I dont have any other choice.



Feinder -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 11:10:37 PM)

Never fight mega-KB (KB + the CVLs).

Yes combine your RN CVs with Allied CVs.

Never fight outside of your own LBA range, and certainly not within Japan's.

You have a fair chance at victory vs. KB (6 IJN CVs) if you have -all- allied flight decks, within LBA range, and with supplimental sqdns (like a few additional USMC SBDs). It's all about the number of planes you can launch. If you can't get at least 33% more planes in the air than Japan, don't engage.

-F-



anarchyintheuk -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/13/2006 11:12:14 PM)

Doesn't seem right. Shouldn't this be an rroberson thread?



marky -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/14/2006 5:07:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Never fight mega-KB (KB + the CVLs).

Yes combine your RN CVs with Allied CVs.

Never fight outside of your own LBA range, and certainly not within Japan's.

You have a fair chance at victory vs. KB (6 IJN CVs) if you have -all- allied flight decks, within LBA range, and with supplimental sqdns (like a few additional USMC SBDs). It's all about the number of planes you can launch. If you can't get at least 33% more planes in the air than Japan, don't engage.

-F-


however given a choice between fighter or SBD numbers i would pick fighters, tho i do love dauntlesses

plus for the obvious reason that sbds may drop more bombs, but more fighters will help prevent u from RECIEVING bombs, and help insure the SBD-express is there, on time, and able to make delivery to imperial flight decks[:D]

only reason i include RN carriers is cannon fodder[sm=00000613.gif]



Feinder -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/14/2006 2:59:07 PM)

quote:

however given a choice between fighter or SBD numbers i would pick fighters, tho i do love dauntlesses



I like offense myself, and go with the SBDs. Also, the Fighter sqdns won't fit on your CVs after the July sqdn size expansion without exploding the capacity.

And as far as the RN CVs go, every plane counts. With 2x RN(33), 1x RN(45), and RN(20), you're talking about 45+ more torpedo bombers, plus fighters. Also, the RN CVs are immune to Vals, so any attacks that go vs. them are fewer bombs landing on your USN CVs.

-F-



BlackVoid -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/14/2006 5:17:56 PM)

I am the opponent of Ursa in this game. First I thought that he did not have any reaction set. But this was not the problem. The real problem for him was that I spotted him, but he did not spot me. My CVs were around Lunga and remained unspotted for about 6 days!

This is Andrews map. NDeni had no airplanes (no airfield icon). Luganville was also empty. Only 2 allied airfields were operating in the vicinity: Efate and Noumea. I do not know how many Catalinas were operating from these fields but it could not be too many. I had in the area 4 CV TFs, 1 SC TF and 1 ASW TF.
The battle happened at a range of 5 hex - which is very lucky for me. Allied CVs did not react because my CVs remained unspotted.

As for defending Lunga: it is a hopeless place for Allies in 42 IMHO.



Sardaukar -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/14/2006 5:33:36 PM)

3 US CVs in one TF in 1942...BAD ! You get serious disadvantage from coordination rule. Engaging KB before Flak upgrade and VF squadron re-sizing...BAD! Engage KB before late summer/autumn of 1942 at your own risk. Mostly you are in serious disadvantage from start and it usually leads to results like this.

BTW, if you managed to save Prince of Wales it makes the best Flak-vessel until SoDaks arrive and is reasonably fast to be with your CVs.



JReb -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/14/2006 5:34:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Do not even attempt to attack the KB until every ship has had its 10/42 upgrade and TBFs have replaced the TBDs. Its as simply as that really.



It never ceases to amaze me of the different experiences had by different players in the WitP world.

I totally disagree with the "run and hide till end of year" approach. The KB is tough but not invincible, even in summer of '42.

The one time I have played as the Allies the decisive battle happened in July of '42 around Rabaul. I was able to use 3 CVs in addition to land based a/c from PM, Rabaul and Guad. The KB came rushing in from Kwaj and got plastered over the next 4 days.

The IJN lost all but the Akagi and she was smoking big time. Allies had the Enterprise limping to Australia but the other two in relatively good shape.

The KB can be had before 1943![;)]



Sardaukar -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/14/2006 5:39:00 PM)

Yes, with careful planning and picking your fights KB can be defeated in early 1942. Especially if you fight inside your heavy bomber range. Those LB-30/B-17 units work fine against KB, soaking up fighters and giving your CV planes better chance. Of course those plans can be easily wrecked by day of bad weather...[:'(]



kilowatts -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/14/2006 5:41:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JReb
The one time I have played as the Allies the decisive battle happened in July of '42 around Rabaul. I was able to use 3 CVs in addition to land based a/c from PM, Rabaul and Guad. The KB came rushing in from Kwaj and got plastered over the next 4 days.


Well there's the perfect setup if ever I saw one. As Big B pointed out, it's the setup that's the key.



Tetsuo -> RE: Being unlucky with CVs (12/14/2006 6:26:06 PM)

I agree with feinder, its all about offense and numbers as allies in early war. A few more of those basically obsolete wildcats will not stop the KB from smashing though your cap. You need to force YOUR bombers through, as many as possible, and then just take whatever your opponent dishes out in return. Only reason for adding more fighters would be to set them to escort and 0% cap imho. [;)]

Because of the coordination issue allies should keep only 1 CV per TF throughout 42 so this basically means only one carrier will get sunk per raid while you will get multiple hits on multiple enemy carriers. [:)] If one or two of them sink on its way back to port its a nice bonus.

RN carriers can be the weight that tips the scale in a carrier duel, especially if its late enough for you to have a couple of the squadrons flying seafires.

I have only had 3 carrier duels in my pbems so far, but the above tactic have worked pretty good. Worst result was two carriers sunk for me and 2 heavily damaged for IJN (1 fleet+1cvl+light damage to several others), which I think was acceptable since KB will be vulnerable to my LBA until those carriers are back.



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