Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (Full Version)

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RAM -> Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (1/3/2007 7:06:19 PM)

I posted this in another thread some time ago but prolly not many ppl noticed it...so I'll repost it in an independent thread, for I really need some advice :)

Hi.

I'm currently playing a PBEM with allied and Japanese doctrines on, and it's 6/1943, so my submarines should start being highly efficient from now onwards. And I really don't know how to use in the offensive.

I've keeping regular sub patrol lines in the northern Phillipine Sea (near Okinawa) and in the eastern and western sides of the South China Sea. I deploy in groups of 3-4 submarines, in a straight line. Two wolfpacks per zone except in the Western South China Sea, where I deploy only one patrol line (I'll soon detach some submarines from Brisbane to Perth to increase activity in this area).

I've kept activity in the southern pacific too between Rabaul and Truk, but in my game after defending PM I've been able to recover all Eastern NG to Madang , Rabaul is under total allied air dominance, so there is little japanese shipping in this area anyway (thats why I'll be detaching those submarines from Brisbane)



Well, the thing is that I've set this patrols since February 1943 until now (mid-june 1943) and I've got something like 15 intercepts of merchants in the whole time. Doesn't sound too good isnt it?.


So I'm in dire need of help here. With increasing numbers of ocean going submarines I want to start a proper strategic submarine offensive on the Japanese shipping from the DEI to Japan. How do you set up your submarines for this task in your games?. How do you manage them? (needless to say submarines are in manual mode). In which areas do you deploy them and in which kind of deployment?. Several submarines in a single hex?. Submarine patrol lines as the ones I am talking about?.


Thanks in advance for any tips :)


------------------------------------------------------------------


This was the post I made. Since them (we're at Sept'43 now) I've stationed some sub patrol lines in the Yellow sea, to the E of Phillipines and near Batavia too. I've subdivided my submarine force in commands:


DEI/Phillipines/Japan: HQs at Midway. Oriented towards raiding raw materials and oil supply towards Japan.

Eastern Mandates: HQs at Tarawa. Oriented towards patrolling and sending subs to all Japanese islands between Palau and KWajalein (W to E) and from Iwo-Jima to Nauru (N to S).

Lae Submarine command: HQs at Lae. mostly old S-boats here. Used to give this submarines a decent chance to patrol areas near Truk.

OZ Sub Command: HQs at Perth. This one sends subs to Sumatra/Java/Borneo zone.

BEF sub Command: British and dutch subs. Based at trinco, patrols the MAcassar Straits and the approaches to Sumatra and Singapore.


I've changed most of my commanders with agressive ones (lower agression I accept is 60). I've dfinitely seen an improvement on my attacks, but I'm still at loss at where exactly place my patrol lines to maximize attacks. I think I'm losing a lot of good chances to sink japanese targets.... Choke points like the China-Taiwan-Phillipines are so heavily patrolled by ASW forces that I simply don't bother going there. And as I really don't know where to put my patrol lines, I simply change them randomly...I would like to use my submarines in a more thorough and tactical way instead of simply sending them to the adventure.

So I need tips about where to send my subs. Also some tactical advice on how to act after they have been detected would be useful. When a sub is detected I simply change his position for one hex or two, changing the rest of the subs in the patrol line to conform with this movement.


So...any ideas on how to improve my submarine offensive on the japanese?. Thanks in advance.



Bobthehatchit -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (1/3/2007 7:28:22 PM)

Wolf packing doesn't work all it does it in increase the chances of detection, meaning your subs are less likely to attack any targets and more likely to get attacked by ASW assests in the area. 1 sub per hex in better than a wolfpack in game turms.

Best to post subs in all the hexs around choke points and major supping routes from and around the SRA you need to kill tankers, then are your main target.



KDonovan -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (1/3/2007 7:41:29 PM)

I too am playing with Allied Sub Doctrine ON. From Jan 1st, 1943 - July 1st, 1943 i sunk only 30 japanese ships. At which point it became apparent that the Allied Sub Doctrine expired, as its now Aug. 1st, 1943 and there was been a dramatic increase in sinkings.

Since there are lurking enemy eyes about, i can't say the specific sub tatics i use, but if you email me at Epicwave17@hotmail.com....i can easily help you maximize your patrol lines.



ChezDaJez -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (1/3/2007 7:55:14 PM)

In my game against the AI, I set my US subs up in a double scouting line using Okinawa as the center point. The subs extend north and south from there to cover all the east/west transit points to/from Japan. I've also massed several between the Bonins and Japan proper.

I've probably sunk well over a hundred merchants and tankers in the last 6 months (Jan 45) since I started doing that. In addition, I torped 6-8 DDs, 1 CA, 1 CVL and had numerous unsuccessful attacks against other captial ships.

In the process, I have lost 7 subs, mostly to ASW TFs. I've only lost one to air ASW. All of those lost were between the Bonins and Japan.

Chez



RAM -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (1/3/2007 8:11:15 PM)

Bobthehatchit:
Yah, I know that several subs in same hex won't work well. When I talk about wolfpacks I'm referring to a patrol line of subs extending over a number of hexes. I move them around as a cohesive unit so the patrol line has no holes, but never put more than one in the same hex :).
Choke points are heavily protected by japanese ASW, and many of them are shallow waters, so they're almost impossible to patrol properly. The good side of this is that I'm making the japanese burn a $hitload of fuel on patrolling their backyard and keeping those ASW assets out of other, more open zones...so I keep sending a sub to those zones now and then just to keep my opponent worried and force him to keep the patrols there. But as stable patrol points, they're forbidden zone for my subs.


Kdonovan-email on the way :)


ChezDaJez: this was the original patrol zone I set in my PBEM, but those subs are detected early and subjected to ASW attack. And some nasty attacks, now that we're at it :S. Never sank a ship there, but it may have been because it was back on feb-march'43 and I still had not changed commanders so most of them had very slow agression ratings...
It's worth trying again on those hunting grounds now ;). Thanks for the tip!.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (1/3/2007 8:18:24 PM)

I think ChezDaJez is on to something. One of the secrets IMHO to a good sub offensive is spotting the enemy. Use sub lines to spot the enemy and a group of subs (in individual TFs) to go after them. Line up along their path. The enemy will continually change the shipping lanes so you have to use those lines to spot where the new lanes are.

Also, you need to move your subs continually.

Groups of 3 or 4 are too small you need groups of 10+ operating in an area under coordinated effort.



ChezDaJez -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (1/3/2007 10:00:30 PM)

quote:

ChezDaJez: this was the original patrol zone I set in my PBEM, but those subs are detected early and subjected to ASW attack.


I move my sub one hex as soon as it is detected. After a turn or two, I move it back. The trick is to keep tabs on who is doing all the detecting. I don't worry about airborne ASW. The AI doesn't seem to train them very well.

If the ASW TFs get to be too much of a bother, I simply move a couple hexes east or west for a week or so then move back. I also do not go chasing down TFs. I let them come to me.

I also own Marcus Island which makes it a lot easier to see the ASW TFs coming... at least for the subs south of Japan. I have a B-24 unit there on naval search and they tend to keep the ASW TFs from getting too uppity.

Chez



RAM -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (1/3/2007 10:12:39 PM)


quote:

I also own Marcus Island which makes it a lot easier to see the ASW TFs coming... at least for the subs south of Japan. I have a B-24 unit there on naval search and they tend to keep the ASW TFs from getting too uppity.



That must be a world of difference, indeed. I'm still far from the point where I'll invade Marcus (to the point that I don't know if I will do it at all). So I guess I will have to work blind in that zone ;).



wdolson -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (1/4/2007 5:33:56 AM)

The most important thing I found was to replace sub captains with aggressive captains. Also make sure the TF commander is the same as the sub commander. When I change a sub captain, I disband and reform the TF to make the new aggressive captain the CO of the TF. When I started changing out the commanders, the number of sub attacks went up dramatically. You have to keep an eye on sub damage and the number of torpedoes because some of those really aggressive sub commanders will stay on station in a sinking sub with no torpedoes and will use the deck gun to attack.

I have had clumps of a few sub TFs in a single hex and they work OK. They will attack. Usually only one of ths subs in the hex will attack in a given turn. 2-3 in separate TFs seems to work OK.

I put subs off Japan near Tokyo and Osaka. Those subs caught a lot of traffic coming and going from the Marianas and Truk.

Bill



spence -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (1/4/2007 6:02:05 AM)

quote:

The most important thing I found was to replace sub captains with aggressive captains


This works well for me too. I try however to strike a balance with the CO's Naval Skill rating too. In fact for the Fleet Boats I select CO's with high naval skill ratings over aggression...the torpedos don't work that well and higher aggression ratings seem to mostly result in damaged (or sunk) boats with little to show for it. For the S-boats though I definitely select primarily on the basis of aggression rating. Those boats do very good work that way.



Sardaukar -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (1/4/2007 2:15:25 PM)

Aggressive sub skippers attack more, indeed. Trouble is..if them are low on naval skill and the crew is low on experience, it can easily mean damaged or sunk sub. Very aggressive skippers with low skill/green crewtend to do stupid things like attack on surface during day etc...



HansenII -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (1/10/2007 10:40:48 PM)

Hi everybody!

Am I mistaken or does my subs (I play as Allied against the AI) achieve much better results if they are "on the move" and not sitting in one hex? I have been annoyed with the bad results of my subs and started to move them along the suspected shipping lines, with quite some effect even in Dec '41.[:D]

Even the american subs with all their dud's are performing well, the dutch subs do mighty well in the defense of Singapur (as do my surface ships against (nearly) unprotected transports).

So I suggest to keep your subs moving at all times.....but never on computer control!

Have fun...



Anthropoid -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (1/22/2007 4:53:51 PM)

I'm curious if guys use allied subs for mining enemy ports for the first year or so of the game?



Sardaukar -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (1/22/2007 7:00:24 PM)

BTW, according to Mike Wood, "wolfpack" works...if subs are in same TF. So, you can put 2-3 subs in same TF and chances to detect are not rising badly like in case of 3 subs in same hex, in different single-sub TFs. Also, chances to attack are increased, but submarines in same hex makes only one attack against TF per phase anyway. So you won't get multiple attacks against same TF during same phase no matter how many subs you have in hex. With multi-sub TF, chance for attack to occur is increased, though.



Mike Solli -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (1/22/2007 7:05:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

I'm curious if guys use allied subs for mining enemy ports for the first year or so of the game?


I use the Japanese minelaying subs (I-121 - I-124) extensively. They are a pain in the butt for the Allied player. The dump 50 mines per load. I sprinkle mines all over the place.



scott64 -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (1/22/2007 7:58:10 PM)

I use Jap APB's to sink those pesky allied subs. [:)]



Anthropoid -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (1/22/2007 11:17:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: scott1964

I use Jap APB's to sink those pesky allied subs. [:)]


"Any ship can be a minesweeper once . . ." [:D]



seydlitz_slith -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (2/9/2007 9:50:53 AM)

There are a couple of key ports to keep in mind:
1. Sasebo
2. Tokyo

Why these?
Many Japanese players will use Sasebo as the gateway port for all of their incoming oil and resources. It is the major port closest to Korea and China. The East China Sea is easily defended as it is ringed with bases from which to base ASW aircraft and ASW groups. Most of the high traffic areas transit shallow waters, making it easier to damage the sub if you locate one. Also, the vast shallow area plus numerous islands make it feasible for the Japanese to lay large amounts of anti-sub minefields, yet still leave clear transit lanes on the principal convoy routes through the area. Try hunting in the line of hexes running due west from Sasebo. If you look at your port intel and you see large numbers of ships showing for Sasebo, then your opponent is doing this.
(I am not afraid of making this common knowledge because I have taken steps in my game as Japan to make this area a bastion of ASW. In fact, I can't wait for my opponent to try to penetrate so I can see how effective my minefields will be <g>.)

Tokyo is where most of Japans reinforcements, especially the support units, will arrive. He will normally send convoys to and from Tokyo to pick up these units. Good places to hunt are two hexes due south of Tokyo (from Tokyo go 1 hex SE, then 1 hex SW) and four hexes south (repeat last move) for troops heading to Truk or Kwajelin. For troops going to SE Asia or the PI, try one hex SW, then 1 hex west from Tokyo. Also, if you go two more hexes west from this point, you hit the intersecting point of the Tokyo and Osaka shipping lanes.

Most merchies will move two hexes a turn, so you want to stagger patrols in multiples of two hexes out from the ports to catch them. Subs will not intercept unless the target ends the move phase in the hex with the sub.

Hope this helps.



goodboyladdie -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (2/9/2007 11:32:58 AM)

I continually use my Allied subs to lay mines in enemy ports. Aggressive skippers (with good Naval skill) often attack Jap ships while they are there. Targeting ports makes a lot of sense as you can guarantee some ships will end their turns in a port hex. It means that the Jap player is forced to run MSW tfs all over the place to try to keep his ports clear and also has to deploy ASW and LBA assets away from the front to try to stop you. It is proving to be more effective than setting up mobile patrol lines at choke points up to and including May '43 and I'd imagine it will remain effective as long as I keep an eye on where he is placing mines/ASW. It must be infuriating to load a ship, get it all the way to the receiving port only to have most of the cargo destroyed in a mine strike[:D]...

The other benefit is that the subs gain a lot of experience as a lot of transits to and from MLEs are involved.



Charles2222 -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (2/9/2007 2:08:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie

I continually use my Allied subs to lay mines in enemy ports. Aggressive skippers (with good Naval skill) often attack Jap ships while they are there. Targeting ports makes a lot of sense as you can guarantee some ships will end their turns in a port hex. It means that the Jap player is forced to run MSW tfs all over the place to try to keep his ports clear and also has to deploy ASW and LBA assets away from the front to try to stop you. It is proving to be more effective than setting up mobile patrol lines at choke points up to and including May '43 and I'd imagine it will remain effective as long as I keep an eye on where he is placing mines/ASW. It must be infuriating to load a ship, get it all the way to the receiving port only to have most of the cargo destroyed in a mine strike[:D]...

The other benefit is that the subs gain a lot of experience as a lot of transits to and from MLEs are involved.


It can be something of a problem though, especially with a major port, because the ship may be pretty difficult to destroy with major repair facilities readily available. Considering that, and the likelihood of major ASW forces around such ports, it would probably be more productive to sink them in the ordinary way at sea, or to mine ports which are more minor. I wouldn't dream of using the IJN subs on mining major ports. They have enough difficulty often enough from what I've seen getting away from the more minor ports unscathed.

Actually to be most effective in sub minelaying, my thoughts are that it's strategically of more importance also to not only pick a more minor port, but to also make sure that same port isn't being stalked by your own subs nearby. The idea is to cause the ASW assets to be spread more thinly, and in having patrolling ordinary mission subs nearby would be to quite possibly draw more traffic to the same port.



goodboyladdie -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (2/9/2007 4:45:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

quote:

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie

I continually use my Allied subs to lay mines in enemy ports. Aggressive skippers (with good Naval skill) often attack Jap ships while they are there. Targeting ports makes a lot of sense as you can guarantee some ships will end their turns in a port hex. It means that the Jap player is forced to run MSW tfs all over the place to try to keep his ports clear and also has to deploy ASW and LBA assets away from the front to try to stop you. It is proving to be more effective than setting up mobile patrol lines at choke points up to and including May '43 and I'd imagine it will remain effective as long as I keep an eye on where he is placing mines/ASW. It must be infuriating to load a ship, get it all the way to the receiving port only to have most of the cargo destroyed in a mine strike[:D]...

The other benefit is that the subs gain a lot of experience as a lot of transits to and from MLEs are involved.


It can be something of a problem though, especially with a major port, because the ship may be pretty difficult to destroy with major repair facilities readily available. Considering that, and the likelihood of major ASW forces around such ports, it would probably be more productive to sink them in the ordinary way at sea, or to mine ports which are more minor. I wouldn't dream of using the IJN subs on mining major ports. They have enough difficulty often enough from what I've seen getting away from the more minor ports unscathed.

Actually to be most effective in sub minelaying, my thoughts are that it's strategically of more importance also to not only pick a more minor port, but to also make sure that same port isn't being stalked by your own subs nearby. The idea is to cause the ASW assets to be spread more thinly, and in having patrolling ordinary mission subs nearby would be to quite possibly draw more traffic to the same port.


Funnily enough - I am happy to fill his yards up with ships that are damaged approaching/leaving port. If his yards are clogged with transports they are not repairing warships very quickly and are using up plenty of supply which could be used in production. The subs get in and out in one turn and the only losses/damage over six months of this strategy have been to mines (1 loss and 3 damaged I think for loads of mine hits and many successful torpedo and gun attacks). I am managing to keep most his major ports in the HI and DEI/PI/Indochina mined.



Charles2222 -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (2/10/2007 12:01:23 PM)

Well that's a different way to think about it. It's just that with the IJN only having 4 of those subs, particularly if you enjoy the mining, it's even more important to keep them away from a lot of traffic. Speaking of your bottleneck strategy, it's too bad that people can't put ships into port and then designate only which ones they want to repair. So considering that, that particular aspect of your strategy ends up being kind of gamey doesn't it? But, you can't fault somebody for wanting to stir up things at a major base. It's just the game creates the gamey situation from it.



goodboyladdie -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (2/11/2007 10:57:46 AM)

Yeah it could be considered gamey if it was the major aim of the strategy, but it's a by-product of me using my only effective weapon against his shipping at the most efficient place to target it due to the fact that the game engine does not allow attacks unless vessels end a move in the same hex. If Subs could attack ships that pass through their patrol areas during a turn, as would happen IRL, then it would not be necessary, but as my torps suck and my mines don't, it's the best option to achieve the aim of crippling the Nip's Merchant Navy. The fact that some clever Yank decided the way to go was to design mines that any sub could lay through a 21" tube deserves to be exploited to the full. It is war, after all...



castor troy -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (2/11/2007 2:13:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie

Yeah it could be considered gamey if it was the major aim of the strategy, but it's a by-product of me using my only effective weapon against his shipping at the most efficient place to target it due to the fact that the game engine does not allow attacks unless vessels end a move in the same hex. If Subs could attack ships that pass through their patrol areas during a turn, as would happen IRL, then it would not be necessary, but as my torps suck and my mines don't, it's the best option to achieve the aim of crippling the Nip's Merchant Navy. The fact that some clever Yank decided the way to go was to design mines that any sub could lay through a 21" tube deserves to be exploited to the full. It is war, after all...



subs attack ships passing them.... seen it on and on... just put 4 or 5 subs in a row in a shipping lane and you will se that they attack ships in hexes the TFs didnīt end



goodboyladdie -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (2/11/2007 5:09:58 PM)

That's handy to know. With radar in all my subs and good torpedoes soon to arrive a broadening of tactics will become profitable...[;)]



FAdmiral -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (2/12/2007 12:44:44 AM)

BTW, when do the torps that go BOOM 100% of the time when they hit
arrive in this game for the Americans? I could not find that info listed
in any of the manuals...

JIM



ctangus -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (2/12/2007 12:51:21 AM)

They never go boom 100% but the dud rate does decrease both in Jan '43 and again in Sept. '43 when the dud rate goes down to 10%. Check out section 6.125 in the manual.



Yamato hugger -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (2/12/2007 2:01:57 AM)

Most effective means I have found to use subs is as follows:

1) Put 3 (or more, I use 3) subs per TF.

2) Put a "good" commander in charge of the TF.

3) Park them on a path 4 or more hexes away from enemy bases.

4) Send in a single sub occasionaly to rotate out the most damaged ship or the one lowest on torpedos.

5) Dont put a seaplane sub in the TF with them. Im not 100% sure that the seaplane adds to the chance of a sub TF being sighted, but it seems to.

OK, why 3 subs per TF? Because contrary to popular belief, number of subs in the same TF does matter. Only 1 of them will attack, but they all count towards detecting enemy ships. You put them all in the same TF because multiple TFs adds to their detection level. Detected subs are near worthless. This is also the reason you park them 4+ hexes away from an enemy base. The further they are away, the harder it is to see them. For Jap subs, I park them 7+ hexes out.



wdolson -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (2/12/2007 2:38:06 AM)

One thing that is missing is a torpedo upgrade to the torpex torpedos in 1943. Torpex gave US submarine torpedos a lot more punch.

As someone else has already said, the decrease in dud rate is hard coded into the program.

Bill



Sardaukar -> RE: Question on submarine tactics (Allied) (2/12/2007 12:08:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Most effective means I have found to use subs is as follows:

1) Put 3 (or more, I use 3) subs per TF.

2) Put a "good" commander in charge of the TF.

3) Park them on a path 4 or more hexes away from enemy bases.

4) Send in a single sub occasionaly to rotate out the most damaged ship or the one lowest on torpedos.

5) Dont put a seaplane sub in the TF with them. Im not 100% sure that the seaplane adds to the chance of a sub TF being sighted, but it seems to.

OK, why 3 subs per TF? Because contrary to popular belief, number of subs in the same TF does matter. Only 1 of them will attack, but they all count towards detecting enemy ships. You put them all in the same TF because multiple TFs adds to their detection level. Detected subs are near worthless. This is also the reason you park them 4+ hexes away from an enemy base. The further they are away, the harder it is to see them. For Jap subs, I park them 7+ hexes out.


True that. "Wolfpacks" do work in game just like that. Chances that sub will attack increases a lot when TF contains multiple subs. Multiple subs in same hex in different TFs is no-no, though. Detection level goes up a lot then..unlike when they are in one TF.



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