How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ?

How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (Full Version)

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Philodraco -> How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/4/2007 9:07:23 AM)
There are no editor can fix the naval gun's rate of fire and torpedo's speed, How can I edit? Please help.

wdolson -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/4/2007 11:31:59 AM)
The scenario editor is included with the game. It is a link in the Start menu folder for the game. There is also a manual for the editor. Matrix has released an update to the editor which is available on this site. A few players have written their own manuals and they are available for download on the fan sites around the net. This game has a very active modding community with many new versions of the game available. However, the speed of torpedos and the rate of fire of guns is handled abstractly in the game. Those are not figures that can be modified directly. Bill

el cid again -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/4/2007 11:42:44 AM)
Generally correct, however - torpedo speed is a field in its own right. So is range. ROF is also almost strait forward for normal guns. It is true ROF/10. However, for very small calibers, there is a special case - and they use a combination rule involving two fields. The weight of shell is also strait forward - in stock and CHS and most mods: it is the weight of shell in pounds. Similarly, anti-soft value = effect. Anti-armor = penetration in mm. And it may be that the standard for penetration is 1.75 times caliber in mm. [Otherwise prooving ground values are used - and these are approximated well by that algorithm]. RHS is different somewhat. IF a gun mainly uses AP - we use 2/3 of shell weight for effect. And we use square root of effect for anti-soft value. We use 1.75 times caliber for penetration and anti-armor ONLY for AP - which has that 2/3 division in effect. For HE as the normal case (say for mortars, specialized AA guns, howitzers, etc) - we use the full weight of shell = effect - but only half the penetration value (0.875) of AP shell. Anti-armor remains = to penetration - but AP thus penetrates better than HE - and has a higher anti-armor value. And the square root of effect for anti-soft has killed "nuclear bombardment" problems - and better reflects the destruction of a shell (which spreads out by the inverse square law from the shell itself).

wdolson -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/4/2007 12:23:55 PM)
I don't see most of those fields in the device definitions. I know some are reused, is the Accuracy field used for torpedo speeds? What fields are used for ROF and shell weight? Bill

Terminus -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/4/2007 1:40:11 PM)
Shell weight is "effect"; one point of effect = one pound of shell weight.

el cid again -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/4/2007 2:01:52 PM)
Terminus is correct. Range = Range in yards / 1000 Accuracy is hard to say - but possibly someone's version of % - [Naval guns are awfully inaccurate - scoring 2 to 5% hits at point blank range - depending on various things - but perhaps this is some sort of prooving ground fixed gun standard - at something really close - and then it might be %] Armor is probably not used - it applies to things like tanks Penetration is 1.75 times caliber in mm (or half that if you are firing non AP in RHS) Dud rate is normally 0 for naval guns - but might not always be Anti-armor = penetration Anti-soft = effect (except in RHS square root of effect)

akdreemer -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/5/2007 8:04:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: el cid again Terminus is correct. Range = Range in yards / 1000 Accuracy is hard to say - but possibly someone's version of % - [Naval guns are awfully inaccurate - scoring 2 to 5% hits at point blank range - depending on various things - but perhaps this is some sort of prooving ground fixed gun standard - at something really close - and then it might be %] Armor is probably not used - it applies to things like tanks Penetration is 1.75 times caliber in mm (or half that if you are firing non AP in RHS) Dud rate is normally 0 for naval guns - but might not always be Anti-armor = penetration Anti-soft = effect (except in RHS square root of effect) I use published data on penetration as the diameter x 1.75 is too simplestic.

Dili -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/5/2007 10:27:24 AM)
quote: However, the speed of torpedos and the rate of fire of guns is handled abstractly in the game. Those are not figures that can be modified directly. So how people have been putting new guns? copy and editing some existing one with right ROF and changing it's name?

Philodraco -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/5/2007 11:23:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dili quote: However, the speed of torpedos and the rate of fire of guns is handled abstractly in the game. Those are not figures that can be modified directly. So how people have been putting new guns? copy and editing some existing one with right ROF and changing it's name? At least I do this way. but check the existing rate is a hard work and I hope I have a excel list for all of them.

el cid again -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/5/2007 1:10:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior quote: ORIGINAL: el cid again Terminus is correct. Range = Range in yards / 1000 Accuracy is hard to say - but possibly someone's version of % - [Naval guns are awfully inaccurate - scoring 2 to 5% hits at point blank range - depending on various things - but perhaps this is some sort of prooving ground fixed gun standard - at something really close - and then it might be %] Armor is probably not used - it applies to things like tanks Penetration is 1.75 times caliber in mm (or half that if you are firing non AP in RHS) Dud rate is normally 0 for naval guns - but might not always be Anti-armor = penetration Anti-soft = effect (except in RHS square root of effect) I use published data on penetration as the diameter x 1.75 is too simplestic. There is the problem that you cannot get published data on all guns. And even to the extent you can, it is not from a single source to a uniform standard. The variation in quality - and the absense of data - may make it actually better to use a "simplistic" standard. To the degree I am wrong about this - Naval Weapons of World War Two comes closest to being a single, credible and complete source (covering also a large number of land guns) - and using that I found the "formula" was remarkably close - often dead on - and so it may be that "too simplistic" is a bit too harsh. The routine itself is not a precision instrument - and we hardly need to set up a prooving grounds - build weapons and test to get accuracy out to the last mm - which itself would not be completely accurate because we probably would not build all guns to their historical standard - even if we diligently tried. It is far better to have a standard definition - and use it - than to have no definition. And prooving ground data is itself not entirely consistent - or accurate to a consistent standard - in that there really is a range of data (not one value) in real tests - and in that different services / companies / agencies really use different standards. Interpreting the data is at least as important as the data itself. One could spend a lifetime just researching guns - or just a lot of time - and end up with file folders filling filing cabinets (like I have) - but never actually complete the research on the vast array of weapons in our data set. That said, I use prooving ground data when I can get it, or published scholarly sources allegedly quoting it - even more often. I only use the formula when the data is not available, or when there is very serious problems with the data (often scholars leave things out, or say they think this or that may be wrong, or guess why something else seems unusual). As a quick value determining system - or as a backup when the data is absent or suspect - it is at least adequate. And we went one step farther - distinguishing long guns from short ones - so low velocity guns don't have the same penetration as high velocity guns. The technical reason the formula works is this: high velocity rifles - from your hunting rifle all the way to the largest naval guns - if they have a long barrol - all achieve on the order of 900 m/sec muzzel velocity. Gunners love to get into the actual MV of this mod of that - and it does matter a bit - but here we have many mods - and often several guns - represented in a single slot. We are only using a typical MV anyway - not the exact one of each of the different pieces represented. The other part of the reason is that materials are substantially similar - and so AP shot is going to be roughly similar no matter the gun it comes from. Yet another part of it has to do with the way shells behave in air - and so what is "point blank range" varies as caliber increases. The way it is defined almost forces the formula to be correct. De facto point blank range = range at which maximum penetration occurs - also the range at which the highest hit rate occurs - and the range at which it is not necessary to aim in the usual elaborate sense. If we set up a lab we would find that lots of things matter besides caliber - we can talk about shell weight - shell shape - shell material(s) - different MV for different charges behind the shell or different lengths of barrel - and so on ad nausium. Game modders need guiding principles which do not require vast amounts of research time - the thing they really spend doing what they do.

el cid again -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/5/2007 1:25:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dili quote: However, the speed of torpedos and the rate of fire of guns is handled abstractly in the game. Those are not figures that can be modified directly. So how people have been putting new guns? copy and editing some existing one with right ROF and changing it's name? It is a good idea to copy an existing similar weapon - but not just rename it. Change the data so it is right. Since the statement above is not correct - and torpedoe speed is entered directly in knots - while ROF is (in the normal case) entered in divided by 10 - you can get it right. Same for weight of shell (or warhead) - you can enter this concretely - not abstractly. And if you do not you won't get it right.

Big B -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/5/2007 10:10:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Philodraco There are no editor can fix the naval gun's rate of fire and torpedo's speed, How can I edit? Please help. If you go to the Data Base Editor, find the gun in the Devices catagory. The field labelled 'Acurracy" directly equates to Rate of Fire for naval guns. Try a change, then fire up your test scenario you just edited, and you should see that the guns ROF is 1/10 of the accuracy you just gave the gun. Example: Give the BB Yamato 18" guns an accuracy of 40 - then when you fire up the test scenario you just edited, you should find that the Yamato's 18" guns now have a rate of Fire of 4. It should work.

Dili -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/5/2007 11:18:52 PM)
But most of them have zero so????

Big B -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/5/2007 11:44:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dili But most of them have zero so???? I haven't seen a naval gun with an accuracy of Zero, which device is that?

Dili -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/5/2007 11:56:58 PM)
You are right. Cant explain how i build up that idea. Btw how is that modeled for diferent Guns? for example Naval Gun (slot028)8"/50 has an accuracy of 55 but 25mm Type96 AA Gun has an accuracy of 35 so 3,5 rpm?

Big B -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/6/2007 12:24:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dili You are right. Cant explain how i build up that idea. Btw how is that modeled for diferent Guns? for example Naval Gun (slot028)8"/50 has an accuracy of 55 but 25mm Type96 AA Gun has an accuracy of 35 so 3,5 rpm? The Japanese 8"/50 has a stock Accuracy (ROF) of 35. In game when you view the weapon in the ships' profile, ROF is stated as 3 (Rds Pe Min). The US 8"/54 has an accuracy rating of 33, and in game viewing shows ROF of 3 (just as the Japanese 8"/50). Does the game engine see one as 3.5 rpm and the other as 3.3 rpm? Pretty sure it does. B

Dili -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/6/2007 12:53:17 AM)
quote: The Japanese 8"/50 has a stock Accuracy (ROF) of 35. In game when you view the weapon in the ships' profile, ROF is stated as 3 (Rds Pe Min). The US 8"/54 has an accuracy rating of 33, and in game viewing shows ROF of 3 (just as the Japanese 8"/50). Does the game engine see one as 3.5 rpm and the other as 3.3 rpm? Pretty sure it does. Yes but that are both classed as Naval Guns, my question is if there are a diferent set of rules for DP guns and another for AA guns? if not 3.3 rpm for 25mm AA is way low.

Big B -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/6/2007 1:08:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dili quote: The Japanese 8"/50 has a stock Accuracy (ROF) of 35. In game when you view the weapon in the ships' profile, ROF is stated as 3 (Rds Pe Min). The US 8"/54 has an accuracy rating of 33, and in game viewing shows ROF of 3 (just as the Japanese 8"/50). Does the game engine see one as 3.5 rpm and the other as 3.3 rpm? Pretty sure it does. Yes but that are both classed as Naval Guns, my question is if there are a diferent set of rules for DP guns and another for AA guns? if not 3.3 rpm for 25mm AA is way low. Gotcha, OK - each of those weapon types you mentioned are handled diferently. The naval gun (class 14?) has no altitude rating - whereas the DP gun does. So the game treats ROF the same between the two - but recognizes that one is ship only and the other is also AA (but both are rated the same as far as ROF goes) Now the last you mentioned - the 25mm AA is not a DP gun (Class 17?) - but an AA weapon, and therefore it also has a diferent class. The game will use it's accuracy rating of (is it 35 rpm?) as 35 rpm- per tube, per mount. So in other words it it's ROF is NOT rated at 1/10 it's accuracy...that is why there are different gun classes. Make sense?

Dili -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/6/2007 1:13:06 AM)
Yes thanks. That answered my question.

el cid again -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/6/2007 5:13:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Big B quote: ORIGINAL: Dili But most of them have zero so???? I haven't seen a naval gun with an accuracy of Zero, which device is that? If it did, in theory it should miss. GG uses mainly multipliers. If 0 is one of them - the product will be 0.

el cid again -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/6/2007 5:18:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dili quote: The Japanese 8"/50 has a stock Accuracy (ROF) of 35. In game when you view the weapon in the ships' profile, ROF is stated as 3 (Rds Pe Min). The US 8"/54 has an accuracy rating of 33, and in game viewing shows ROF of 3 (just as the Japanese 8"/50). Does the game engine see one as 3.5 rpm and the other as 3.3 rpm? Pretty sure it does. Yes but that are both classed as Naval Guns, my question is if there are a diferent set of rules for DP guns and another for AA guns? if not 3.3 rpm for 25mm AA is way low. Very fine question - and the answer is probably "yes and no." It was not thought through in every sense. DP guns are permitted to fire at planes - and so get a different routine. But as originally case - a DP gun would then shoot to the full SURFACE range at airplanes!!!! [At max range the "altitude" of a shell must be zero. AA range is much less.] RHS has diligently converted DP guns to have a range as AA guns - and the problem with that is they don't have their full surface range. It also uses an effective ceiling rather than an absolute ceiling. This is still too much - you cannot fire at full AA range to full effective ceiling - but it is a compromise. I found no trace of evidence in the data anyone ever looked at such issues. Likely code simply says a DP gun is "both" a surface gun and an "AA" gun - and since there is only one range value - uses that. [If it cut the range in half for AA it would be better]

el cid again -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/6/2007 5:20:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Big B quote: ORIGINAL: Dili quote: The Japanese 8"/50 has a stock Accuracy (ROF) of 35. In game when you view the weapon in the ships' profile, ROF is stated as 3 (Rds Pe Min). The US 8"/54 has an accuracy rating of 33, and in game viewing shows ROF of 3 (just as the Japanese 8"/50). Does the game engine see one as 3.5 rpm and the other as 3.3 rpm? Pretty sure it does. Yes but that are both classed as Naval Guns, my question is if there are a diferent set of rules for DP guns and another for AA guns? if not 3.3 rpm for 25mm AA is way low. Gotcha, OK - each of those weapon types you mentioned are handled diferently. The naval gun (class 14?) has no altitude rating - whereas the DP gun does. So the game treats ROF the same between the two - but recognizes that one is ship only and the other is also AA (but both are rated the same as far as ROF goes) Now the last you mentioned - the 25mm AA is not a DP gun (Class 17?) - but an AA weapon, and therefore it also has a diferent class. The game will use it's accuracy rating of (is it 35 rpm?) as 35 rpm- per tube, per mount. So in other words it it's ROF is NOT rated at 1/10 it's accuracy...that is why there are different gun classes. Make sense? For rapid fire weapons - they mess with "accuracy" and "effect." The problem is the "effect" is supposed to be the weight in pounds - but the weight is too low for that (less than 1). So they increase effect - and decrease accuracy (ROF) in the same proportion. Because they MULTIPLY these values (so the manual says) to get the product in the routine - it does not matter that it is done this way. It permits values less than 1 pount to have an effect.

Dili -> RE: How can I edit naval gun's rate of fire ? (1/6/2007 6:40:32 AM)
I understand but seems a wacky design choice to have been done at least without knowing the code design choices. Btw,The pounds is pound by shell or explosive power by shell? Btw 25mmType96 (slot069) Reality: 0,55pounds x110rpm(pratical rate of fire) = 60,5 RHS Game: 11 pounds x35rpm = 385 Of course this doesnt mean it is wrong. The data should approach the usual probability of hitting in the real war.

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