RE: A few notes from the patch in testing... (Full Version)

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Queeg -> RE: A few notes from the patch in testing... (1/10/2007 12:48:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut

What is this uber stack you are speaking of?

Because each area in this game encompasses hundreds and hundreds of square miles. This is an area based game, not hex.

So the "uber" stacks youa re talking about? They actually existed. While sometimes armies were broken up do to foraging/supply issues (Longstreets Corps being sent away in 1864, IIRC, for example) the idea that the game needs some mechanism to force the players to spread out is simply fallacious. Preumably, they ARE spread out, all within the area they occupy.

I don't ahve any real problem with the winter dispersion, but disease hits in the summer as well. I would REALLY like to see the historical evidence that suggests that Armies at the time were not concentrated at the scale the game represents.



In a perfect world, the game would have more provinces. But it doesn't. Hence, much of the maneuver that occurred in real life isn't possible at this scale. Without the disease model, the game would devolve to my perpetual stack on my front line versus your perpetual stack on your front line. I like the fact that the game forces more fluidity, even if it doesn't perfectly match the scale.

Fluidity = good. Stagnation = bad. Scale, I can live with. Again, an abstraction of the literal that, I think, produces a better result overall.




Queeg -> RE: A few notes from the patch in testing... (1/10/2007 12:56:49 AM)

Is it really all that essential that "Plantations" accurately model the plantation economy? I just view Mansions/Plantations as an abstraction of the need to invest in the local infrastructure in order to reap the benefits of increased local production. Mansions offer a high-cost, low-time option with limited payback. Plantations offer an lower-cost, longer-time investment with a larger payback. They are simply different paths to achieve the same thing. Is anything really gained by making it more complicated than that?




christof139 -> RE: A few notes from the patch in testing... (1/10/2007 1:03:34 AM)

I also think as you do concerning Plantations, Mansions, and RR Stations as being representative of many smaller enterprises etc.

Christof139




Erik Rutins -> RE: A few notes from the patch in testing... (1/10/2007 1:44:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Palfrey
So the Confederacy can't build plantations without slaves -- but the Union can?


Er, no. The Union can't build plantations. The Confederacy can. However, if the Confederacy chooses to emancipate, then it can no longer build new plantations. Existing ones continue to operate. As far as how many resources the Confederacy has to build anything, that depends on the game settings.

Regards,

- Erik




Erik Rutins -> RE: A few notes from the patch in testing... (1/10/2007 1:46:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Queeg
Is it really all that essential that "Plantations" accurately model the plantation economy? I just view Mansions/Plantations as an abstraction of the need to invest in the local infrastructure in order to reap the benefits of increased local production. Mansions offer a high-cost, low-time option with limited payback. Plantations offer an lower-cost, longer-time investment with a larger payback. They are simply different paths to achieve the same thing. Is anything really gained by making it more complicated than that?


That's correct. The main advantage gained from this change is that it adds a cost to Confederate emancipation. The Confederacy can build Mansions after that.

Regards,

- Erik




Erik Rutins -> RE: A few notes from the patch in testing... (1/10/2007 1:47:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: christof139
So, what happens in the game if new palntations/farms can't be built after Emancipation??


The CSA would have to build Mansions to expand and use other buildings to increase its economy in the way plantations would otherwise. These are basically infrastructure buildings and after a CSA emancipation, it's future infrastructure would be different.

Regards,

- Erik




jchastain -> RE: A few notes from the patch in testing... (1/10/2007 3:53:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Queeg


quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

As far as camps go, speaking of an area which has a lot of interest, we're talking about (1) making the cost of additional camps in a city progressive beyond the first camp, (2) tying the reinforcement rate from a camp into the population of the province, perhaps 300+15*Men -- if the advanced population rules are on, then this would be the average of the current Men and maximum Men, otherwise it would just be the maximum Men for the province, and (3) giving camps a chance to reduce the province's Men by 1 in the Early April turn.



I like these ideas.



In my mind, the fix for camps could be even simpler - don't make them exempt from building capacity. If they filled cities like other developments and required the construction of a mansion, then that would both slow construction and add to their cash cost (indirectly).




Mike Scholl -> RE: A few notes from the patch in testing... (1/10/2007 4:15:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Er, no. The Union can't build plantations. The Confederacy can. However, if the Confederacy chooses to emancipate, then it can no longer build new plantations. Existing ones continue to operate. As far as how many resources the Confederacy has to build anything, that depends on the game settings.

Regards,
- Erik



Interesting possibility here Eric. If the South Emancipates, why not have all thier "plantations" convert to "mansions" as the former "slaves" leave to look for better opportunities. Put another penalty on an already farfetched notion.




Queeg -> RE: A few notes from the patch in testing... (1/10/2007 5:29:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jchastain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Queeg


quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

As far as camps go, speaking of an area which has a lot of interest, we're talking about (1) making the cost of additional camps in a city progressive beyond the first camp, (2) tying the reinforcement rate from a camp into the population of the province, perhaps 300+15*Men -- if the advanced population rules are on, then this would be the average of the current Men and maximum Men, otherwise it would just be the maximum Men for the province, and (3) giving camps a chance to reduce the province's Men by 1 in the Early April turn.



I like these ideas.



In my mind, the fix for camps could be even simpler - don't make them exempt from building capacity. If they filled cities like other developments and required the construction of a mansion, then that would both slow construction and add to their cash cost (indirectly).


I'd be happy with that approach as well.




General Quarters -> RE: A few notes from the patch in testing... (1/10/2007 5:40:00 AM)

To avoid uberstacks, there are lots of ways besides disease you could do that -- limitations on supply into any single province, or declining effectiveness of armies above a certain size, or weakening command effectiveness, just for beginners. In my view, disease has to stand on its own merits and I am pleased to see it will be moderated and fine-tuned in this patch.




Queeg -> RE: A few notes from the patch in testing... (1/10/2007 5:44:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: General Quarters

To avoid uberstacks, there are lots of ways besides disease you could do that -- limitations on supply into any single province, or declining effectiveness of armies above a certain size, or weakening command effectiveness, just for beginners.



Agreed. But all games employ abstractions and I'm willing accept disease as a surrogate for the other varied and complex factors.




balto -> RE: A few notes from the patch in testing... (1/10/2007 5:46:48 AM)

#110.  Why change that?  The rules for the combat have enough variables.., did someone complain about this?   




Queeg -> RE: A few notes from the patch in testing... (1/10/2007 6:00:07 AM)

quote:

110) CHANGE V1.3.0: Infantry attacking other infantry in quick combat now have their damage adjusted closer to the average damage dealt by both units.


Math, and thinking about math, isn't my strong suit, but I assume this means that infantry results should be less lopsided - a result I strongly favor.




Jonathan Palfrey -> RE: A few notes from the patch in testing... (1/10/2007 9:09:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
The Union can't build plantations.


Thanks, Erik. I couldn't remember, so I checked through the manual, but couldn't find anything saying so. Maybe I missed it.




Twotribes -> RE: A few notes from the patch in testing... (1/10/2007 9:52:55 AM)

I dont think the manual mentions it specifically but if you have ever looked through the files, it is set so only the Confederacy can build plantations. ( one could modify that, but I wouldnt).

And from experience when you take a southern city, emancipation or no, the Union can not build plantations there. I do believe that the game manual does state that if the Union emancipates then any plantations it controls will change to mansions. I will look later to see if this is true. Generally byt he time I have started capturing southern cities I have already emancipated.




Berkut -> RE: A few notes from the patch in testing... (1/10/2007 4:46:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Queeg


quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut

What is this uber stack you are speaking of?

Because each area in this game encompasses hundreds and hundreds of square miles. This is an area based game, not hex.

So the "uber" stacks youa re talking about? They actually existed. While sometimes armies were broken up do to foraging/supply issues (Longstreets Corps being sent away in 1864, IIRC, for example) the idea that the game needs some mechanism to force the players to spread out is simply fallacious. Preumably, they ARE spread out, all within the area they occupy.

I don't ahve any real problem with the winter dispersion, but disease hits in the summer as well. I would REALLY like to see the historical evidence that suggests that Armies at the time were not concentrated at the scale the game represents.



In a perfect world, the game would have more provinces. But it doesn't. Hence, much of the maneuver that occurred in real life isn't possible at this scale. Without the disease model, the game would devolve to my perpetual stack on my front line versus your perpetual stack on your front line. I like the fact that the game forces more fluidity, even if it doesn't perfectly match the scale.

Fluidity = good. Stagnation = bad. Scale, I can live with. Again, an abstraction of the literal that, I think, produces a better result overall.



Have you played the game against a human?

There is some inevitable concentration, but the game hardly devolves into a "perpetual stack" standoff. And it isn't disease that causes that. There is plenty of space for maneuver, and plenty of reason not to just pour everything into one spot. Indeed, that is a recipe for losing, since your opponenet can simply attack where your uber stack isn't.

The game disease model forces ahistorical activity, namely because the effects are ahistorical.




soeren01 -> RE: A few notes from the patch in testing... (1/11/2007 10:03:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

83) CHANGE V1.2.7: A brigade with a Medical Attribute now lowers disease losses by 20% for all units directly attached to the same military group or fort; brigades with two Medical Attributes lower disease losses by 40%. This supercedes the old rule under which the Medical Attribute reduced disease losses by 50% only for the brigade with the attribute.



Rule clarification question:

If you have 2 brigades where each has one medical attribute, do you get 40% disease loss lowering or only 20 %.




Erik Rutins -> RE: A few notes from the patch in testing... (1/11/2007 2:31:48 PM)

I believe the number of Medical attributes is what matters, but I'll double check.




freeboy -> RE: A few notes from the patch in testing... (1/11/2007 3:58:30 PM)

what about sieges? is there some odd thing about fort and city seiges?




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