Soviet Armored Trains (Far East) Identified

Soviet Armored Trains (Far East) Identified (Full Version)

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el cid again -> Soviet Armored Trains (Far East) Identified (1/14/2007 10:43:43 PM)
I estimated there might be 4 Armored Trains in the Far East when the Pacific War began - all on the BP1935 standard: there were 3. I estimated there might be 4 Armored Trains sent to the Far East for the 1945 offensive - all on the BP1943 standard: there were indeed 4, but organized as regiments of 2 trains. Interestingly, all 7 of these trains were at exactly the locations I speculated seemed reasonable: 1 at Vladivostok (vice my 2), 2 at Chita, 4 at Kharbarovsk (in 1945). [I think Oman - near Vladivostok - may be a better location] They were 78 th Separate Armored Train (to 5th Army to assault Mutanchiang) 68 th and 69 the Separate Armored Trains (to 36th Army to assault Hailar) 9th and 13th Separate Armored Train Regiments (to 35th Army to assault North of Lake Khanka - presumably to support the rear because no rail lines cross in that area) [See Leavenworth Papers Number 8: August Storm: Soviet Tactical and Operational Combat in Manchuria, 1945]

Dili -> RE: Soviet Armored Trains (Far East) Identified (1/15/2007 12:21:46 AM)
Pics http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/galleries/Arm_trains.htm Edit: http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/battles/Japan45/Strength_AFV.htm

treespider -> RE: Soviet Armored Trains (Far East) Identified (1/21/2007 3:08:43 AM)
1 Jan 42 Siberian MD - 27, 29, 40, 41,42,47 and 49th Armored Train Battalions Trans-Baikal Front - 17th Army - 63 Armored Train 36th Army - 64, 65 Armored Trains Far Eastern Front - 1st Army - 3, 5 Armored Train Battalions 2nd Army - 2 Armored Train 15th Army - Viaz'ma Armored Train 25th Army - 9 Armored Train Battalion Front Forces - 13 Armored Train "Armored Train battalions consisted of one armored train made up of an armored locomotive, two or more armored railroad cars or armored gun platforms and two or more armored command and control rail cars. Each armored train usually carried one or two antiaircraft guns and four to eight heavy antiaircraft MG. Although they routinely provided generla fire support to ground forces the armored train battalions primary mission was to protect important rail facilities and junctions againt Luftwaffe air attack. In some instances, multiple rocket launchers were mounted on the armor trains to provide ground forces with general area fire support." "By this time (Kursk) the standard anti aircraft armnored train battalions consisted of two trains, each armed with three 76mm and two 37mm antiaircraft guns, three 12.7mm DShK heavy machine guns, an antiaircraft detector, and a stereoscopic rangefinder. The trains themselves consisted of a base element made up of a locomotive and supporting boxcars for housing and supplies and a combat element made up of seven armored platforms mounted on 20-ton double-axle railroad flatcars with side armor 12-15mm thickand 1 meter high and an armor plate floor. Organizationally, the combat element of platoons, one with three medium 76mm guns and the other with light 37mm guns, a machinegun platoon and small service elements. The guns were mounted on the armored platforms, with one 76mm gun on each of five flatcars, and one 37mm gun and one DShK machine gun each on the other two flatcars." - per David M. Glantz, Colussus Reborn and Companion to Colussus Reborn

el cid again -> RE: Soviet Armored Trains (Far East) Identified (1/21/2007 2:12:05 PM)
IF this data is correct, there are technical problems re implementation: THESE trains are smaller than the trains defined in Soviet literature - and which seem to have been used late in the war. The NUMBER of trains listed here is larger in 1942 than it was in 1945 - but we cannot remove units once introduced. NONE of the trains listed here are organized into regiments. It may or may not be significant the term "separate" is missing from the names of the trains. It may well be that there is a difference between an "armored train" and an "armored train battalion" - just as there is a difference between an "armored train battalion" and an "armored train regiment" (there are two battalions in a regiment). My first pass guess is that a "battalion" may have two "trains" - first because that is parallel structure with the relationship of a battalion and a regiment - second because there are two engines listed in battalions - and two or more of everything else car wise - and third because there are two directions you can travel on a RR track. It is possible there were more armored trains in 1942 than in 1945. It is possible that the number was stable - and different ways of listing units does not make it clear that they are saying the same thing. If a "separate armored train battalion" has two "armored trains" - and for signals/tactical purposes each has a number - then 2 regiments of 2 battalions = 4 battalions 3 separate battalions = 3 battalions 4 plus 3 = 7 battalions times 2 trains = 14 trains = almost exactly the 13 listed above

treespider -> RE: Soviet Armored Trains (Far East) Identified (1/21/2007 2:56:52 PM)
One of the authors of Cid's previously cited Leavenworth paper is Glantz. To quote the introduction to Collossus Reborn by Glantz - "The book's selected bibliography complements the book's exhaustive textual notes, identifying the most important foremorely classified source materials the Russian Governement has yet released,.., recently released collections of Soviet archival materials on Red Army institutions, specific military operations, and other topics associated with the war as a whole,..." ... " In addition to expressing my thanks to the current Russian government for releasing and publishing a steady and growing stream of vital archival materials concerning the war, I reserve my special thanks for those Red Army veterans of the war who are now sharing their candid but often painful recollections..." More specifically Glantz cites N. Kornienko, "Boevoe primenenie bronepoezda PVO" [The combat employment of PVO armored trains], VIZH, no 4 (April 1979):31-32 for some of the information contained in my earlier post. As a comparison to the OoB on Jan 1 '42 Glantz lists the following trains on 31 Dec 43- Trans-Baikal Front - None Far Eastern Front - 1st Army - 3, 78 Armored Train Battalion 25th Army - 9 Armored Train Battalion 2nd Army - 2, 5 Armored Train Battalions, 5 RRTrolley Battalion 15th Army - 77 Armored Train Battalion 35th Army - 13 Armored Train Battalion Front forces - 76 Armored Train Battalion

treespider -> RE: Soviet Armored Trains (Far East) Identified (1/21/2007 3:01:01 PM)
A most excellent link to the Leavenworth Papers- later published as August Storm. http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/glantz3/glantz3.asp

el cid again -> RE: Soviet Armored Trains (Far East) Identified (1/21/2007 3:15:48 PM)
Now you are listing 9 trains. Some of the numbers are the same, some are not. None are associated with regimental structure. How do you interpret the data?

treespider -> RE: Soviet Armored Trains (Far East) Identified (1/21/2007 3:32:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: el cid again Now you are listing 9 trains. Some of the numbers are the same, some are not. None are associated with regimental structure. How do you interpret the data? First where do you get your info on regimental structure? Second the Soviets were at war with Germany and likely moved some trains west in the 1942 throughy 1943 period....as well as renamed some trains. I would represent the trains as AA units. August Storm lists the following trains: TRANS-BAIKAL FRONT: 36th Army: Lt. Gen. A. A. Luchinsky 68th Separate Armored Train 69th Separate Armored Train Front Units: 67th Separate Armored Train 70th Separate Armored Train 79th Separate Armored Train 2d FAR EASTERN FRONT: 2d Red Banner Army: Lt. Gen. M. F. Ter�khin 1st Separate Armored Train 2d Separate Armored Train 3d Separate Armored Train 40th Separate Armored Train 66th Separate Armored Train 77th Separate Armored Train 5th Separate Armored Trolley Battalion Front Units: 26th Separate Armored Train 76th Separate Armored Train 1st FAR EASTERN FRONT: 5th Army: Col. Gen. N. I. Krylov 78th Separate Armored Train 25th Army: Col. Gen. 1. M. Chistyakov 28th Separate Armored 'train 35th Army: Lt. Gen. N. D. Zakhvatayev 9th Separate Armored Train 13th Separate Armored Train

el cid again -> RE: Soviet Armored Trains (Far East) Identified (1/21/2007 8:28:39 PM)
August Storm is quite specific - defining what a regiment is (= 2 trains). It also lists "separate armored trains" by number. Since the regiments have numbers - and since they contain trains which presumably also have numbers - I get a sense that what has the number is the element. For communications and control reasons this makes sense. They likely would use the RR telegraph system (very well developed - and coded - in Siberia) - preventing radio interception - in addition to radio transmitters in command cars. Probably there is a table - and if it is like Russian ships - they occasionally "shuffle the deck" - changing the numbers of a unit - to confuse the enemy (not to mention historians)! I represent the trains as armored units. AKDreemer represents each car as a separate vehicle. I represent the train as a set of vehicles and squads of all kinds - and confine it to RR tracks (unless it retreats off them). Mostly I represent the fighting part as armored cars - a lightly armored thing with a MG - one per MG - with typically 2 AA guns and 2 artillery pieces or tanks (for the non AA guns) - plus there is typically a platoon (3 squads) of engineers and a small number of infantry squads. I also give the whole formation "motorized support" squads. This seems to work pretty well - and I lack the slots to do cars individually - nor think the small numbers justify this. We have pretty good data on Japan - with 4 trains - one "special" and three "regular." Another matter is the ad hoc trains. On the other side there are a number of special cases we ignore - being minor and temporary. The Russians may have done the same sort of thing? This whole idea came from AK Dreemer - and is new to RHS - but I think it is neat "chrome." These are pretty small units - barely justifying the term "battalion" - only in terms of cost and value. They are specialized companies with some pretty powerful toys. Curiously I have the official August Storm as issued to US Army officers - and my listing is quite different - and posted at the beginning of the thread.

treespider -> RE: Soviet Armored Trains (Far East) Identified (1/22/2007 12:39:42 AM)
Leavenworth Paper No. 7 (I posted the link earlier) is where I extract the train OoB from. Leavenworth Paper No. 8 is Cid's edition of August Storm can be found here : - http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/glantz4/glantz4.asp Both are now published in hardback - No. 7 is also refered to as - The Soviet Strategic Offensive in Manchuria, 1945: 'August Storm' (ISBN: 0714652792) No. 8 is also refered to as - Soviet Operational and Tactical Combat in Manchuria, 1945: August Storm (ISBN: 0714653004)

akdreemer -> RE: Soviet Armored Trains (Far East) Identified (1/22/2007 10:06:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: treespider quote: ORIGINAL: el cid again Now you are listing 9 trains. Some of the numbers are the same, some are not. None are associated with regimental structure. How do you interpret the data? First where do you get your info on regimental structure? Second the Soviets were at war with Germany and likely moved some trains west in the 1942 throughy 1943 period....as well as renamed some trains. I would represent the trains as AA units. August Storm lists the following trains: TRANS-BAIKAL FRONT: 36th Army: Lt. Gen. A. A. Luchinsky 68th Separate Armored Train 69th Separate Armored Train Front Units: 67th Separate Armored Train 70th Separate Armored Train 79th Separate Armored Train 2d FAR EASTERN FRONT: 2d Red Banner Army: Lt. Gen. M. F. Ter�khin 1st Separate Armored Train 2d Separate Armored Train 3d Separate Armored Train 40th Separate Armored Train 66th Separate Armored Train 77th Separate Armored Train 5th Separate Armored Trolley Battalion Front Units: 26th Separate Armored Train 76th Separate Armored Train 1st FAR EASTERN FRONT: 5th Army: Col. Gen. N. I. Krylov 78th Separate Armored Train 25th Army: Col. Gen. 1. M. Chistyakov 28th Separate Armored 'train 35th Army: Lt. Gen. N. D. Zakhvatayev 9th Separate Armored Train 13th Separate Armored Train According to seceral good websites, as well as printed material such as 'Armoured Trains of the Soviet Union 1917-1945' by Wilfdried Kopenhagen, in the 1930's the armoured trains were organized into 2-3 trains per BN and 2 BN's per Regiment. However, by looking at Gantz's work, sometime during the war the Soviets must have made many of their trains independent. Also, there were seperate trains from AA, but by and large the moajority Armored Trains carried artillery and was used in lad defense, not air. Indeed the trains carried various tank turrets as their primairy canon firepower. There were even one that mounted katyuska's.

el cid again -> RE: Soviet Armored Trains (Far East) Identified (1/22/2007 10:47:51 PM)
Thanks. I had just about concluded that a binary organization was normal: 2 trains per battalion and 2 battalions per regiment comes closest to reconciling the data - and seems logical as well - given long rail ines with 2 possible directions of movement. Those tank turrets are found on Armored River Gunboats - and land hard points - as well as on trains and tanks! Many STILL exist - on the PRC border!

el cid again -> RE: Soviet Armored Trains (Far East) Identified (1/24/2007 7:09:05 PM)
Any idea what an "armored trolly battalion" is? ANSWER: Apparently it is an LOC unit. The trollies - very neat looking - have gun mountings fore and aft - and they are used individually to run messages. Seems there is NO radio OR telegraph on the trains!!! Silly me for assuming otherwise. It isn't really a unit in our terms - because it does not fight as a unit - it does not fight at all - it just carries messages as individual cars.

el cid again -> RE: Soviet Armored Trains (Far East) Identified (1/25/2007 7:20:16 PM)
It is not entirely clear what the armored train count should be - or when? But it is clear that my first pass guesses were too conservative - in both number and time. Also, instead of using regiment/train ID I am only using train ID for all. Now we have a contradiction - the US Army says a regiment = 2 trains - but it may be confusing trains and battalions - and I found a book (in my own library) saying a battalion is 2 or sometimes 3 trains. So - by that logic - 2 regiments = 4 battalions = 8 trains plus some separate trains: I have gone with 12 trains - and reinforcements arrive in 1942, 1943 and 1944 - so it is not a late war build up as with most Soviet units. Given we have a US Army listing for 1943, I made the 1942 train reinforcements put us at that level. And I used entirely identified trains throughout. I ignored the armored trolly battalion - which served all trains in its front - and probably there is another one in each of the other fronts we have not identified.

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