Riverine movement to fast (Full Version)

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Zweihorn -> Riverine movement to fast (1/18/2007 6:29:45 PM)

The following movement rates are given in the manual:

Riverine Equipment: This equipment uses the Riverine Movement
rate (2400 kilometers per week), and can only move along
Rivers and through Shallow Water and Flooded Marsh terrain.
- Motor Equipment: The equipment uses the Motorized Movement
rate (560 kilometers per week).
- Slow Motor Equipment: The equipment uses the Slow Motorized
Movement rate (350 kilometers per week).
- Fast Motor Equipment: The equipment uses the Fast Motorized
Movement rate (660 kilometers per week).
- Horse Equipment: The equipment uses the Horse (with wagons
and other transports) Movement Rate (340 kilometers per
week).
- Fast Horse Equipment: The equipment uses the Fast Horse (Cavalry)
Movement rate (400 kilometers per week).
- Rail Move Equipment: The equipment always moves by Rail
Movement (4200 kilometers per week). It does this without using
Rail Transport capacity, and can only move by rail.
- Slow Equipment: The equipment uses the Foot Movement rate
(280 kilometers per week

2400 km appears to be very fast. compared to Motor equipment.
Perhaps a 0 to much ???



JAMiAM -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/18/2007 6:39:30 PM)

Hi,

This is not a support question, but rather a scenario design issue. Moving it to the proper forum...



golden delicious -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/18/2007 7:20:48 PM)

It's a moot point. Riverine units don't really work in TOAW.



Chuck2 -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/18/2007 7:38:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Hi,

This is not a support question, but rather a scenario design issue.


Huh? I'm not sure there is a way for to designers to make riverine units work well.



Boonierat -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/18/2007 8:07:22 PM)

I'm confronted to the problem of Riverine movement in my Vietnam series, Riverine units are way to fast and powerfull and I'm not sure how to deal with them. Would be an idea to increase the cost of moving along enemy-controlled rivers and canals, and the equipement editor might be the solution in a near future.



JAMiAM -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/18/2007 8:09:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuck2
Huh? I'm not sure there is a way for to designers to make riverine units work well.

Well, other than stuffing a riverine unit with ferry squads and using it as a geographically restricted ferry unit, I've not seen too many compelling uses of the units, myself. I won't deny that they are one of the less well thought out features of TOAW. However, they are working as designed (regardless of how poor that design may be), and thus the thread is not one for the Support Forum, but rather the "WTF do I do with these" Forum...err...I mean the Scenario Design Forum...[;)]

Or, the Main Forum, under one of the wish list threads...



Chuck2 -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/18/2007 8:12:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuck2
Huh? I'm not sure there is a way for to designers to make riverine units work well.

Well, other than stuffing a riverine unit with ferry squads and using it as a geographically restricted ferry unit, I've not seen too many compelling uses of the units, myself. I won't deny that they are one of the less well thought out features of TOAW. However, they are working as designed (regardless of how poor that design may be), and thus the thread is not one for the Support Forum, but rather the "WTF do I do with these" Forum...err...I mean the Scenario Design Forum...[;)]


Urggh... you have a tendancy to do this! [:D] [:)] [:-]



JAMiAM -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/18/2007 8:24:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuck2
Urggh... you have a tendancy to do this! [:D] [:)] [:-]

What? Shunt issues off to the clever folks in Scenario Design to come up with innovative and brilliant solutions? It's only because I know you all are so damned good at it...[:)][&o]



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/18/2007 8:36:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zweihorn
2400 km appears to be very fast. compared to Motor equipment.
Perhaps a 0 to much ???


14km/hour. Seems doable, unless there's something I'm missing.



Chuck2 -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/18/2007 8:56:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zweihorn
2400 km appears to be very fast. compared to Motor equipment.
Perhaps a 0 to much ???


14km/hour. Seems doable, unless there's something I'm missing.


But compare to motorized equipment as Zweihorn stated earlier. Can't really see the logic of making riverine boats 4 or 5 times faster than trucks.



Chuck2 -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/18/2007 9:03:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuck2
Urggh... you have a tendancy to do this! [:D] [:)] [:-]

What? Shunt issues off to the clever folks in Scenario Design to come up with innovative and brilliant solutions? It's only because I know you all are so damned good at it...[:)][&o]


Good answer.. [;)] [:'(] [&o]



Chuck2 -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/18/2007 9:06:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Boonierat

I'm confronted to the problem of Riverine movement in my Vietnam series, Riverine units are way to fast and powerfull and I'm not sure how to deal with them. Would be an idea to increase the cost of moving along enemy-controlled rivers and canals, and the equipement editor might be the solution in a near future.


Hmm. Not really sure what you should do. Riverine units tend to push things out of the way much too easily. Maybe try putting passive or otherwise weak equipment into the riverine units along with the boats.



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/19/2007 1:21:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuck2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zweihorn
2400 km appears to be very fast. compared to Motor equipment.
Perhaps a 0 to much ???


14km/hour. Seems doable, unless there's something I'm missing.


But compare to motorized equipment as Zweihorn stated earlier. Can't really see the logic of making riverine boats 4 or 5 times faster than trucks.


Well, a motorized unit can't run 24 hours/day, unlike a marine vessel. And if my suggestion about 1/2 MP cost for motorized units moving down an improved road were implemented, then truck-borne units could move 1320km/week - 55% of the riverine movement rate.



Chuck2 -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/19/2007 2:16:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuck2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zweihorn
2400 km appears to be very fast. compared to Motor equipment.
Perhaps a 0 to much ???


14km/hour. Seems doable, unless there's something I'm missing.


But compare to motorized equipment as Zweihorn stated earlier. Can't really see the logic of making riverine boats 4 or 5 times faster than trucks.


Well, a motorized unit can't run 24 hours/day, unlike a marine vessel.


I would imagine most boats like the "swift boats" of Vietnam had short ranges and couldn't operate 24 hours per day. These shouldn't have the same movement rates as destroyers or cruisers, for example. They should operate more like fast cavalry that only uses rivers or flooded marsh.



SMK-at-work -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/19/2007 2:35:24 AM)

IMO Naval shoulp "operate" much like air - ie units are based at a location, and can be used to attack various locations within a range.

the range would depend upon the time scale - if you're doing 2.5 days/move tehn yuo get 5 times teh range for teh same unit as it would get using 0.5 day moves.



golden delicious -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/19/2007 11:39:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuck2

But compare to motorized equipment as Zweihorn stated earlier. Can't really see the logic of making riverine boats 4 or 5 times faster than trucks.


Well, they tend to be able to spend more time moving. A river boat needs to refuel less often and can just switch pilots. A tank has to stop so the crew can eat and sleep.

Four times would be a bit much, though.

EDIT: Damn you Bob...



a white rabbit -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/19/2007 5:04:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zweihorn
2400 km appears to be very fast. compared to Motor equipment.
Perhaps a 0 to much ???


14km/hour. Seems doable, unless there's something I'm missing.


..yahh right, bloody things zoom up rivers like they're on amphetamines..



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/19/2007 11:33:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuck2
I would imagine most boats like the "swift boats" of Vietnam had short ranges and couldn't operate 24 hours per day. These shouldn't have the same movement rates as destroyers or cruisers, for example. They should operate more like fast cavalry that only uses rivers or flooded marsh.


They don't have the same movement rate as destroyers or cruisers. Those move at 4200km/week. What's your basis for the claim that they couldn't operate 24hrs/day? And would that apply to any river-moving vessel, not just the case of swift boats?



Chuck2 -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/20/2007 1:06:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuck2
I would imagine most boats like the "swift boats" of Vietnam had short ranges and couldn't operate 24 hours per day. These shouldn't have the same movement rates as destroyers or cruisers, for example. They should operate more like fast cavalry that only uses rivers or flooded marsh.


They don't have the same movement rate as destroyers or cruisers. Those move at 4200km/week. What's your basis for the claim that they couldn't operate 24hrs/day? And would that apply to any river-moving vessel, not just the case of swift boats?


The basis of the ships not operating 24hrs/day is mainly the need to refuel. According to the link below the swift boat only had the ability to go on a 600-800 kilometer patrol with a top speed of 20 to 25 knots . What that means operationally I'm not sure... but if you play a Vietnam scenario you can see the boats exploring half the rivers in Vietnam in a single turn. River boats have the ability to RBC much larger units out of the way and only pay 1 mp regardless of who controls the territory... all and all river boats are too powerful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Patrol_Craft

If you want to discuss other river boats, please bring up some examples. For large rivers that can carry ocean-going ships, it might be better to make the river a deep water hex.



Dabbs -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/20/2007 10:55:12 AM)

Might be better to use the Amphibious Transport icon with some variety of amphibious ferry or LC's,  adding appropriate weapons.  They will be able to travel *much shorter* distances along rivers and flooded marshes. 

Riverines also tend to stand up to air attacks better than most naval vessels in my experience; IIRC - flooded marshes cost at least 2 MP for a riverine unit.



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/20/2007 7:06:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuck2
The basis of the ships not operating 24hrs/day is mainly the need to refuel. According to the link below the swift boat only had the ability to go on a 600-800 kilometer patrol with a top speed of 20 to 25 knots .


At 2400km/week a riverine unit could travel about 686km in two days. Then it would need to refuel - couple of hours. The fact remains that river vessels have berths & cooking facilities - you don't have to stop for sleep or eating, like a motorized unit would.

quote:

River boats have the ability to RBC much larger units out of the way ...


A completely different problem - and that's the one that needs to be addressed. Let's don't fix the wrong thing.

quote:

...and only pay 1 mp regardless of who controls the territory...


For ground units, the rationale for the extra cost to enter enemy territory is that the unit must convert from straight column to column with flankers & advance guards to avoid being ambushed. Since part of the force is off in the toughest terrain scouting the flanks and checking the ground ahead, the unit moves slower. There is no corresponding factor for naval units - they all move over the same terrain - water. I wouldn't think swift boats would slow down in enemy territory. Would that make them safer?

quote:

If you want to discuss other river boats, please bring up some examples. For large rivers that can carry ocean-going ships, it might be better to make the river a deep water hex.


Well, there was this guy who designed an American Civil War scenario. [:)]

Whether a deep water hex could be used instead of a river depends on the scale and whether it should require amphib ability to be crossed.



Chuck2 -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/20/2007 8:35:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

At 2400km/week a riverine unit could travel about 686km in two days. Then it would need to refuel - couple of hours. The fact remains that river vessels have berths & cooking facilities - you don't have to stop for sleep or eating, like a motorized unit would.


Not really sure of the operational, as opposed to the tactical, speed of the swift boat unit. Take a recce regiment. The TOAW system says they have an operational speed of 4 kilometers per hour. The cars themselves probably do at least 10 times this speed.

quote:

quote:

...and only pay 1 mp regardless of who controls the territory...


For ground units, the rationale for the extra cost to enter enemy territory is that the unit must convert from straight column to column with flankers & advance guards to avoid being ambushed. Since part of the force is off in the toughest terrain scouting the flanks and checking the ground ahead, the unit moves slower. There is no corresponding factor for naval units - they all move over the same terrain - water. I wouldn't think swift boats would slow down in enemy territory. Would that make them safer?


Note sure. Though if there were enemy units along the banks of the river they may want to engage them somehow. See the John Kerry stories, lol.

quote:

quote:

If you want to discuss other river boats, please bring up some examples. For large rivers that can carry ocean-going ships, it might be better to make the river a deep water hex.


Well, there was this guy who designed an American Civil War scenario. [:)]


That uses deep water hex, although as much as anything to allow the use of rivers for transporting units.



a white rabbit -> RE: Riverine movement to fast (1/21/2007 12:40:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuck2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuck2
I would imagine most boats like the "swift boats" of Vietnam had short ranges and couldn't operate 24 hours per day. These shouldn't have the same movement rates as destroyers or cruisers, for example. They should operate more like fast cavalry that only uses rivers or flooded marsh.


They don't have the same movement rate as destroyers or cruisers. Those move at 4200km/week. What's your basis for the claim that they couldn't operate 24hrs/day? And would that apply to any river-moving vessel, not just the case of swift boats?


The basis of the ships not operating 24hrs/day is mainly the need to refuel. According to the link below the swift boat only had the ability to go on a 600-800 kilometer patrol with a top speed of 20 to 25 knots . What that means operationally I'm not sure... but if you play a Vietnam scenario you can see the boats exploring half the rivers in Vietnam in a single turn. River boats have the ability to RBC much larger units out of the way and only pay 1 mp regardless of who controls the territory... all and all river boats are too powerful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Patrol_Craft

If you want to discuss other river boats, please bring up some examples. For large rivers that can carry ocean-going ships, it might be better to make the river a deep water hex.



..what 'e said..



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