Feedback on Upgrades (Full Version)

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Gil R. -> Feedback on Upgrades (1/20/2007 11:31:45 PM)

I don't remember seeing any positive or negative comments about the way upgrades work in "Forge of Freedom," and whether they are an enjoyable feature of the game. We at WCS are now in the early developmental stages of two new wargames, both intended for release in the second half of 2007. In one of them, we are planning to use a similar system for researching and choosing upgrades, and it would be helpful to know whether people like what we've done with them. Personally, I enjoy having them, partly because they add to replayability and let one make many interesting choices that shape each game. So, in our upcoming game, would we be making a sound decision to include a large number of potential upgrades?

(And no, I can't say what the games are, though I'm tempted to lie and say that we're developing a Marx Brothers-based wargame called "Forge of Freedonia.")



chris0827 -> RE: Feedback on Upgrades (1/20/2007 11:37:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

I don't remember seeing any positive or negative comments about the way upgrades work in "Forge of Freedom," and whether they are an enjoyable feature of the game. We at WCS are now in the early developmental stages of two new wargames, both intended for release in the second half of 2007. In one of them, we are planning to use a similar system for researching and choosing upgrades, and it would be helpful to know whether people like what we've done with them. Personally, I enjoy having them, partly because they add to replayability and let one make many interesting choices that shape each game. So, in our upcoming game, would we be making a sound decision to include a large number of potential upgrades?

(And no, I can't say what the games are, though I'm tempted to lie and say that we're developing a Marx Brothers-based wargame called "Forge of Freedonia.")



Upgrades come much too quickly. Weapons such as 20" guns and gatling guns which saw little or no use in the war can show up very early.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Feedback on Upgrades (1/20/2007 11:46:31 PM)

well, that could be worked with, just make something or somethings needed reseached first before they can be reseached



Drex -> RE: Feedback on Upgrades (1/20/2007 11:46:54 PM)

I like the upgrades but if only 4 of a certain weapon was ever produced then only four should be availbale. also if the Confederates had ordered certain weapons but historically they never arrived then they shouldn't be availble to the South. this could be toggled though.



Gil R. -> RE: Feedback on Upgrades (1/21/2007 12:03:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

well, that could be worked with, just make something or somethings needed reseached first before they can be reseached


We're also considering having a more complex tech tree, so that one needs prerequisite upgrades in two or more areas before getting a new one. (For example, if one were doing an ancient world wargame one wouldn't get the "Flaming Arrows" upgrade until one had first gottten the "You've Discovered Fire!" scientific upgrade and the "Bows & Arrows" weaponry upgrade.)



Sonny II -> RE: Feedback on Upgrades (1/21/2007 12:19:41 AM)

Hail Fredonia!

We need help. Send more men. If you can't send more men send three more women.



Gil R. -> RE: Feedback on Upgrades (1/21/2007 12:28:18 AM)

"I'm in a hurry! To the House of Representatives! Ride like fury! If you run out of gas, get ethyl. If Ethel runs out, get Mabel! Now step on it!"



Jakerson -> RE: Feedback on Upgrades (1/21/2007 5:14:27 AM)

Upgrades system is definitely better in FoF than it was in GoG but this new economical system I don’t like as much as I liked GoG type of economy handling.

Also I was disappointed a little bit that in FoF there was no GoG type of diplomacy even when there is only two sides you could have add diplomacy between north and south there could have been options for cease fire between north and south, reconciliation (draw) with various levels emancipation granting marginal victory either north or south and granting south independence (total victory to south) to unconditional southern surrender (total victory to north). Then players could decide when they want to end conflict instead of scored victory.



Gil R. -> RE: Feedback on Upgrades (1/21/2007 6:09:39 AM)

In the game that will have upgrades we will be restoring the COG diplomatic system (with appropriate modifications, of course).



Mike Scholl -> RE: Feedback on Upgrades (1/21/2007 12:59:37 PM)

Haven't played CoG, but the idea of "upgrades" in FoF adds some nice flavor to the mix.  But it's far too controllable by player input.  Many of the "improvements" available weren't the result of any Government's effort.  They were civilian inventions..., good old "make a buck" Yankee Ingenuity.  Placing more of these outside of what the player can control would help keep the development tail from dragging the game horse around.



Paper Tiger -> RE: Feedback on Upgrades (1/21/2007 2:09:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Drex

I like the upgrades but if only 4 of a certain weapon was ever produced then only four should be availbale. also if the Confederates had ordered certain weapons but historically they never arrived then they shouldn't be availble to the South. this could be toggled though.


Kind of defeats the object of having upgrades available if you ask me.
In that case you may as well take it all out of the players hands what order things are researched.
Fact is if a particular item only became available in 1864 and you research it in 1863 because you put more effort and money into that area of research, then you are quite likely to produce more than history, hence a cap is not valid.
If the item has a restriction based on difficulties of supply, then it is already covered by the increased costs for over a given number.



Drex -> RE: Feedback on Upgrades (1/21/2007 5:17:08 PM)

As I mentioned it could be toggled. In an "historical" set-up it would be appropriate to have a cap otherwise what you say is true.



spruce -> RE: Feedback on Upgrades (1/21/2007 6:31:28 PM)

ok, I haven't played much of FOF - waiting for that next patch - but here's my analysis on upgrades =

- in FOF they come way too fast - especially if you are getting tons of bonus points from the Europeans,
- I would prefer in any game that one player NEVER is able it research ALL techs in one game - it's about choices. I would say researching about 50 % of all available tech towards the end game is cool - and 75% if the game is a deadlock. The tech's you don't get are based on your choices - or random - if you play another game you'll get other tech.
- in FOF I specialy like the fact that some tech can only come from battle experience - and not from some building or resource gathering.That's very cool !
- MOO3 was a full crap game - but they had a brilliant tech tree system. If you got to level "10" in some field of tech. that meant you researched level 10 - it has some kind of name "f.e. Laser defense" - but you got one or tech at random from that tech tier - the other techs were only unlockable due to "diplomatic" or "spying" ways. Very very cool - ! And to avoid that every player has "improved spies" and "improved mines" etc.

Basicly - the tech system in FOF is a nice addition and I would welcome any upgrade - but for one of the best tech systems ever made in a game I refer to the system used in MOO3 - shortly summarised =

- you get to research tech tiers - giving you one tech "application" when you get there (random or based on race specialties),
- other "tech applications" you need to get from parties by means of diplomacy or spying,
- the tech tree should be long - so you are never able to research all tech - like in FOF - it's too easy and too fast,

the tech tree from MOO3 resulted in a long branch - each level lined up after the other (very good overview). Players could specialise in their tech applications - f.e. by diplomatic means. And the more basic tech levels were more prone to get by means of spying. So you could specialise - but later in the game - the more basical and older techs came available by means of diplomatic intereactions and spying.

another cool tech system is the Crusader Kings tech spread system (Paradox game). There Tech spreads (like a disease) from province to province based on land connections. New techs can be developed in your capital and will spread to other provinces. If you build f.e. schools or universities the spreading chance is increased and as such the "penetration" of tech in your realms ... F.e. you could invent "large Castle" in your capital, meaning your capital is ready to build large castles - but your surrounding provinces still need to develop the tech ... due to the fact they lag behind against the capital. Another nice thing is you can techs from your neighbouring countries. F.e. if the enemy builds a improved mine in his border provinces - the province neighbouring it can get the upgrade (due to interactions) even if it belongs to another realm. Off course the chances for spreading to other nations can be tweaked down a bit ... but I liked the system! One of the things was you needed to "prepare the tech spreading highway" by building schools, monasteries - to give tech spreading a reasonable speed ... to avoid "congestions of tech spreading" ... if you play the game you'll see what I say - I liked it all right.

just my ideas on the matter ...



Twotribes -> RE: Feedback on Upgrades (1/21/2007 7:23:55 PM)

Tech Trees are the way to go in my opinion. There is a bit of that in FoF already, to get to certain things you have to have researched othe things.

I dislike the random part though, The list should ot be driven by random luck. I do not agree that one should not be able to reseach all the techs. ( well except the Confederates).

Addressing the tech points given by European powers would be nice in FoF. There should be a hard cap ( personally I would pick 25) on the amount the CSA can recieve from any European power on any single turn.

Tech is good, trees are good, it adds to the game. There are several games on the market now that have some very detailed tech trees. I like them.



Gil R. -> RE: Feedback on Upgrades (1/21/2007 8:12:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Haven't played CoG, but the idea of "upgrades" in FoF adds some nice flavor to the mix. But it's far too controllable by player input. Many of the "improvements" available weren't the result of any Government's effort. They were civilian inventions..., good old "make a buck" Yankee Ingenuity. Placing more of these outside of what the player can control would help keep the development tail from dragging the game horse around.


Thanks. That's a very interesting suggestion.



Gil R. -> RE: Feedback on Upgrades (1/21/2007 8:21:41 PM)

My favorite game with tech-trees is Twilight Imperium. It's sort of the official game of WCS that wasn't created by WCS. That and poker.



freeboy -> RE: Feedback on Upgrades (1/21/2007 8:38:04 PM)

like the upgrades



ericbabe -> RE: Feedback on Upgrades (1/21/2007 8:53:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

My favorite game with tech-trees is Twilight Imperium. It's sort of the official game of WCS that wasn't created by WCS. That and poker.



That, and mumbley peg.



Gil R. -> RE: Feedback on Upgrades (1/21/2007 8:55:28 PM)

Eric has just hinted at why the patch is taking so long to be released: he lost three fingers last time we played.



helop5 -> RE: Feedback on Upgrades (1/23/2007 3:17:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

Eric has just hinted at why the patch is taking so long to be released: he lost three fingers last time we played.


He still has seven good fingers...what is the problem? [:)]



ABridgeTooFar -> RE: Feedback on Upgrades (1/23/2007 5:04:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

My favorite game with tech-trees is Twilight Imperium. It's sort of the official game of WCS that wasn't created by WCS. That and poker.



That, and mumbley peg.



What, no tiddley winks or monkeys in a barrel?



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