how to defend russia (Full Version)

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jeanbart_MF -> how to defend russia (1/23/2007 9:07:18 PM)

it's quite an unusual situation
I'm playing a pbem as allies, we started a year ago ! with the long scenario (patch 1.801, map "vanilla"), we're at the end of april 42 no CV fights at this time. I still hold

north of burma (road to china still open)
tijilap (DEI)
Manilla (will fall in few days)
south of DEI (timor)
Port Moresby (stronghold), Giligili (after fights), lunga tulagi
new caledonia, fidji and pago (heavy defenses)
Pearl Harbour

I have lost
Midway, johson island,
Sian and Ichang in china
the philippines, Singapore, Rangoon and northern DEI.

this was my life few days ago and I was happy like that, but today my opponent have attacked Russia by the railway at the south of Siberia and have pushed away my first two units (the russian organisation is stupid at the begining of the game).

I have played several times WITP or UV as japan or US but never did face such a situation.
I need advices !!!! help !!
[&o] thank you



RUPD3658 -> RE: how to defend russia (1/23/2007 9:46:02 PM)

In the absence of house rules prohibiting it, send all your B-17s to Russia and start bombing the home islands. Also base all your subs out of Vladivosok.

Use the huge amount of Russian AC you have to attack Kwangtung industry and airbases. This should give him a supply problem.

If your opponant is only using the Kwangtung Garrion (8-9,000 AV) you should be able to hold. If he committs troops from SAA or BAA you will only last 4-6 months but he will be at a standstill elsewhere.

Attacking Russia before the DEI and China are secure is a bad move for Japan.



jeanbart_MF -> RE: how to defend russia (1/23/2007 10:02:49 PM)

my main problem is :
the russian front in this aera (south of siberia) looks like a "banana" wich can be easily cuted from the rest of russia near "blagoveschensk" from japanese bases of heiho and Sunwu. I have the choice between hold on all the russian bases or withdraw and crate a new frontline near Blagoveschensk.

thank you RUPD3658 for the idea of "B17' transfer"



dpstafford -> RE: how to defend russia (1/23/2007 10:44:30 PM)

If the Burma road is still open, then you probably still have Mandalay. Since he attacked Russia, there is little chance he will be strong enough to attack India. Build up forces at Mandalay and go on the offensive.



moses -> RE: how to defend russia (1/23/2007 10:54:29 PM)

First I'm assuming from your post that he's attacking at the south end of the front near vladavostock. Correct.

If so first you need a couple divisions to blagoveschensk to make sure it holds. This is a very strong position and once reinforced will be very hard to take from across the river. If you hold this location you should be OK. As you implied this is a dangerous spot were Russia to lose it as it cuts your position in two.

From your post it seems that most of the Japan southern area army must be fully employed in the DEI. Which means one of two things. Either Japan has stripped China of a whole bunch of divisions, or japan has made a very bad mistake.

I ran several Russian invasion scenarios based on Japan bringing in 10 outside divisions. In that situation Japan could win IF he knows what he is doing. Japans starting forces are not sufficient to take out Russia. They need augmentation.

So once blagoveschensk is secure just pile onto Japan in area of Vladavostoke and also in the North of Russia where you can start a lot of trouble. You have lots of air power to play with as well which can really hurt Japan.

Keep an eye on China. If he has shifted a bunch of China divisions to Russia you need to go on the offensive to force some of them back.

This could be fun. I hope you update us with the results.



jeanbart_MF -> RE: how to defend russia (1/24/2007 9:28:49 AM)

yes Moses,  it's fun:  I have played these games (witp & UV) for 2 years now and I still feel surprised !
I'd like to help russia with US AC and "north pacific" units, have anybody ever transfered units or supplies from aleoutian to russia ?



PetrOs -> RE: how to defend russia (1/24/2007 2:37:02 PM)

I used to fly a large amount of US aircraft over the northern way in such a situation. Most aircraft can easily cover the way, only the short-legged fighters got some problems. Hop from island to island, using petropavlovsk as a intermediate stop case you cant make it from aleutians to vladivostok directly. With Russia at war, you can use its bases unlimited. If you get some 200-300 fortresses/liberators there (upgrade some mitchell/marauder/boston squads case you have spare ones) you can cause a huge havoc in japanese industry. Fortress has an advantage, that at the maximum height zeros can not catch them... and then you bomb his industry, ports and supplies to oblivion...






hawker -> RE: how to defend russia (1/24/2007 10:49:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PetrOs

I used to fly a large amount of US aircraft over the northern way in such a situation. Most aircraft can easily cover the way, only the short-legged fighters got some problems. Hop from island to island, using petropavlovsk as a intermediate stop case you cant make it from aleutians to vladivostok directly. With Russia at war, you can use its bases unlimited. If you get some 200-300 fortresses/liberators there (upgrade some mitchell/marauder/boston squads case you have spare ones) you can cause a huge havoc in japanese industry. Fortress has an advantage, that at the maximum height zeros can not catch them... and then you bomb his industry, ports and supplies to oblivion...







Clever Japanese player will take Petropavlovsk first and with ease[;)].



hawker -> RE: how to defend russia (1/24/2007 10:55:56 PM)

Forget to add,without house-rule Russia is impossible to defend against any Japanese player with experience.



dpstafford -> RE: how to defend russia (1/25/2007 4:32:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hawker

Forget to add,without house-rule Russia is impossible to defend against any Japanese player with experience.


Really? I will have to take your word for it.

On all maps? That is, A Brown's map really make defending China much harder, as the main road from Chunking to Sian is no longer a "main" road. I believe it is Nik Mod that has a constructive solution on East Asia. Nik has all the Chinese bases start with level 9 forts. All modders should do the same, and include the Russian bases on that as well.



moses -> RE: how to defend russia (1/25/2007 6:42:32 AM)

I don't agree that it is a lost cause on the standard map. Perhaps if China were captured and Japan were able to shift 10 or 15 divisions to Russia then it might be hopeless. But in this case China appears to be holding up reasonably well.

Also a quick Japanese victory hinges on taking advantage of the Russians inability to change deployments. If Japan sends 20 divisions across the border on turn one he CAN crush Russia before the allied player can do anything. This also does not appear to be the case in this game.

So while I would not rule out the possibility of Japan conquering Russia in this game, I think it is more likly that Japan will stall out in Asia.

I hope Jeanbart will provide us with updates as this battle unfolds.



jeanbart_MF -> RE: how to defend russia (1/25/2007 3:24:41 PM)

I've seen 19 units by my recon, there were two russian units in the hex (extrem south) the "inf" one get back toward vladivostsock, a little fortress unit managed to keep the place stopping all the japanese units. I think it's a miracle because this gave me one more turn to reinforce Vlad. I think the russian positions at the begining are stupid and I'm going to waste a lot of time changing my frontline.
I also have a problem with russian planes, I know I16,I15 and sturmovik, but what about Lag, Mig and Pe2 ?

(I have to admit that I have never studied or played russians units before)
thank you [;)]



RUPD3658 -> RE: how to defend russia (1/25/2007 3:31:23 PM)

Lag and Mig are fighters, PE-2 is a bomber.

They may not be good but you have tons of them.



jeanbart_MF -> RE: how to defend russia (1/25/2007 3:35:25 PM)

I hope they will face only 2nd line japanese fighters, my opponent have already plenty of "zeros" all over the rest of the map...[:(]



RUPD3658 -> RE: how to defend russia (1/25/2007 3:41:04 PM)

Again, if he pulls Zeros to Russia they will not be available elsewhere. I think your opponant has made a great mistake.



PetrOs -> RE: how to defend russia (1/25/2007 3:55:52 PM)

Well, the most modern russian fighters are quite ok, LaGG-3, MiG-3 and Yak-3 are faster then zero, and acceptably manoverable and tough. They are not too heavy armed however. In hands of a good pilot they can stand even zero, and should have no problem against Nate or Oscar. Tony or Tojo in good hands could be a problem..



jeanbart_MF -> RE: how to defend russia (1/25/2007 4:00:17 PM)

what is the best height to use them ?



rtrapasso -> RE: how to defend russia (1/25/2007 4:02:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jeanbart

what is the best height to use them ?



3,000 feet over his highest group... [:'(]



jeanbart_MF -> RE: how to defend russia (1/25/2007 4:23:03 PM)

too high for my pilots (thy'll feel dizzy)



rtrapasso -> RE: how to defend russia (1/25/2007 4:24:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jeanbart

too high for my pilots (thy'll feel dizzy)


Hey, they're Russians!! With all their vodka consumption, dizziness is a natural state!! [:'(]



jeanbart_MF -> RE: how to defend russia (1/25/2007 4:41:38 PM)

[:D] japanese bombers have destroyed my stocks of vodka at first rather than supplies or fuel...

what is the quality of russian inf units ? are they as weak as chinese ones ? (please say no [&o])



moses -> RE: how to defend russia (1/25/2007 5:40:07 PM)

I found the russian units to be solid.



VSWG -> RE: how to defend russia (1/25/2007 11:00:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

I think your opponant has made a great mistake.

I think so, too.

By now your troops should be fortified (you did build forts from turn 1, right?) and highly prepped. In the air war, the Russians got large replenishment pools for planes and pilots. If you manage to create a backbone of experienced pilots by attacking where his Zeros aren't, you should be able to put up a good fight. Look out for opportunities to counterattack into Mandchukuo, even if you don't manage to take Japanese bases this will force him to defend the entire frontline, and thus weaken his attack.

IMO your general aim should be to keep more Japanese troops and planes occupied than without a declaration of war.

You can find more info here in section III.E:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1274014



hawker -> RE: how to defend russia (1/25/2007 11:13:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dpstafford


quote:

ORIGINAL: hawker

Forget to add,without house-rule Russia is impossible to defend against any Japanese player with experience.


Really? I will have to take your word for it.

On all maps? That is, A Brown's map really make defending China much harder, as the main road from Chunking to Sian is no longer a "main" road. I believe it is Nik Mod that has a constructive solution on East Asia. Nik has all the Chinese bases start with level 9 forts. All modders should do the same, and include the Russian bases on that as well.


Soon you will experience that[;)][8D][:D]



jeanbart_MF -> RE: how to defend russia (1/25/2007 11:22:36 PM)

thank you VSWG for the link [;)]



hawker -> RE: how to defend russia (1/26/2007 12:53:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jeanbart

[:D] japanese bombers have destroyed my stocks of vodka at first rather than supplies or fuel...

what is the quality of russian inf units ? are they as weak as chinese ones ? (please say no [&o])


IRL i think that Russian units has quality to beat Japanese soldiers with ease.
Imagine funny Japanese tankette against T-34 or KV[;)].
In WITP Japanese player can beat the Russians but,in WW2,Russians would push them to-TOKYO



dpstafford -> RE: how to defend russia (1/26/2007 1:25:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hawker
IRL i think that Russian units has quality to beat Japanese soldiers with ease.
Imagine funny Japanese tankette against T-34 or KV[;)].
In WITP Japanese player can beat the Russians but,in WW2,Russians would push them to-TOKYO

I have always maintained that the Japanese army formations are overpowered.

On the other hand, these are the same Russians that the Germans pushed all the way to MOSCOW. Hard to believe that they in turn were that much superior to the IJA.

Oh, and I have been building forts (exclusively--not bases) in Russia since December 7th........



hawker -> RE: how to defend russia (1/26/2007 2:31:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dpstafford


quote:

ORIGINAL: hawker
IRL i think that Russian units has quality to beat Japanese soldiers with ease.
Imagine funny Japanese tankette against T-34 or KV[;)].
In WITP Japanese player can beat the Russians but,in WW2,Russians would push them to-TOKYO

I have always maintained that the Japanese army formations are overpowered.

On the other hand, these are the same Russians that the Germans pushed all the way to MOSCOW. Hard to believe that they in turn were that much superior to the IJA.

Oh, and I have been building forts (exclusively--not bases) in Russia since December 7th........


German army was in that time (1941) the best army in world,they was superior to any other,compare US army in 1941 vs. German army in 1941. Germans was so better than anyone in 1941.
But,Soviets learn fast and they launch gigantic counter-offensive at Moscow and brake that superior army once and for all.
Eastern front was the biggest front in WW2,10-15 million troops was there.

P.S. Without D-day,Soviets would take whole western Europe. Remember that most of German army in 1944 was on eastern front.
After all,they came to Berlin first,what would stop them after Berlin?I think nothing[;)]



hawker -> RE: how to defend russia (1/26/2007 2:35:01 PM)

quote:

Oh, and I have been building forts (exclusively--not bases) in Russia since December 7th........


Ups,forget to add,when 1 500 000 my troops arrive your forts wont help you much[8D]



dpstafford -> RE: how to defend russia (1/26/2007 10:13:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hawker
Ups,forget to add,when 1 500 000 my troops arrive your forts wont help you much[8D]

You seem to have this all figured out, with no apparent margin for error. So let me ask you this. Will this forgone conclusion conquest of Russia give you the points you need for a easy auto-victory? If yes, should I just surrender now...?



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