The Illusion of “community” (Full Version)

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Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> The Illusion of “community” (2/3/2007 3:39:12 PM)

Damned if I do, damned if I don’t. Can’t quit, can’t stay.

It’s only a forum; there never was a “community” here per se. It’s a clever illusion, but it’s an illusion all the same. I don’t require agreement on this by the way; I’ve had 7 years to reach this conclusion.
I have posted in the past, as if I was meeting with people, and conversing in actual conversations. That leads to an unfortunate belief. It makes it easy to assume I AM interacting, when really I am not. The only solution is to discard the illusion of community and finally get over the fact I was mistaken. That likely means dropping posting on topics that don’t mean anything.

Our posts are devoid of crucial elements necessary to REAL human discourse. Body language, tone of voice, subtle word use inflection are all vital components of proper communication (smilies simply don’t cut it). My posts rarely “look” exactly the way I require. What I post is essentially missing too many elements of real conversation. It’s no surprise responses are constantly “unfortunate” as a result.

A forum is just an emagazine with many contributors. It can be read, and discarded casually. Being free, it is valued like all free things inevitably are. Maybe it shouldn’t be free.
The Matrix Games forums are not why I like Matrix Games. I have never bought one of their games based on the merits of their forums. I bought them on the merits of the game. I do not actually need the Matrix Games forums beyond their ability to keep me informed about information critical to the games I have bought. Thus non game related posts have next to no long term merit.

I plan to stop pretending I am standing in a room full of persons. My posts have only as much value as the reader attaches. But the posts I read of others also only have only as much value as the poster gave them. Some posts are good, most are average, and there is always the schlock. But it is just reading material; it is not a communal experience. I just wish “Matrix Legion of Merit” was something earned from other than a massive sum of posts.

Anyway, If you want to get to know the real me, you’re going to have to actually meet me for real.
This post was not designed to generate friction, merely an FYI on what and how I am thinking. Forums have been both good and bad for me. I’m trying to remove the “bad” part.



ravinhood -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/3/2007 3:52:52 PM)

Took you 7 years to realize this? lol



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/3/2007 3:58:40 PM)

Well that's the problem with "clever" illusions :)



hueglin -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/3/2007 5:44:16 PM)

quote:

Our posts are devoid of crucial elements necessary to REAL human discourse. Body language, tone of voice, subtle word use inflection are all vital components of proper communication (smilies simply don’t cut it). My posts rarely “look” exactly the way I require. What I post is essentially missing too many elements of real conversation. It’s no surprise responses are constantly “unfortunate” as a result.


These statements would imply that none of the body of literature that exists is REAL human discourse. I think perhaps what you mean to say is that there is a real difference between discourse in writing and a discourse in face to face communication. They are both effective forms of communication - but each has its advantages and disadvantages.

Because writing uses only words and puncutation, it should be much more carefullly crafted than verbal conversation in order to avoid misunderstanding. By the same token, written form allows the communicator to reflect and collect their thoughts before stating their opinion; this is often not possible in verbal conversation because the audience expects an immediate response.

A community, to me, is a group of people who share something in common, be it geography, race, religion or, in our case, interest. We are brought together by our interest and share our ideas. I think there is value in that - even if it has no real lasting impact on the world.



Kuokkanen -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/3/2007 5:50:42 PM)

Forums can be part of community. Some people might even think forums and/or newsgroups can be enough for community. Clever illusions indeed.

What comes to definition of community, Wikipedia says this:

quote:

A community usually refers to a group of people who interact and share certain things as a group

WWW forums, newsgroups, IRC, TeamSpeak and rest of it definitely fills this criteria. But there can be more to it, and apparently Les wants more, what ever that is.

I have realized myself that playing Classic BattleTech with other people by using computers isn't really same thing like playing chess or Monopoly by face to face. Advantage with computers, Internet and Internet communications is that it's much easier to find other people who are interested about CBT and other wargames.

However playing wargames with miniatures might have something more as community than playing wargames with computers. But sometimes it feels like there are more people closer by Internet than by other means: I still haven't found dedicated person to play CBT with miniatures, dices and record sheets [:(]



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/4/2007 12:22:22 AM)

I would agree. It was hard in the past to meet anyone to play almost any type of wargame(board game). It is much easier than before with the common interest, internet and pbem.[:)] It may not be a community, but its all I have in this hobby. Most of my gaming buddies live miles away.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

Forums can be part of community. Some people might even think forums and/or newsgroups can be enough for community. Clever illusions indeed.

What comes to definition of community, Wikipedia says this:

quote:

A community usually refers to a group of people who interact and share certain things as a group

WWW forums, newsgroups, IRC, TeamSpeak and rest of it definitely fills this criteria. But there can be more to it, and apparently Les wants more, what ever that is.

I have realized myself that playing Classic BattleTech with other people by using computers isn't really same thing like playing chess or Monopoly by face to face. Advantage with computers, Internet and Internet communications is that it's much easier to find other people who are interested about CBT and other wargames.

However playing wargames with miniatures might have something more as community than playing wargames with computers. But sometimes it feels like there are more people closer by Internet than by other means: I still haven't found dedicated person to play CBT with miniatures, dices and record sheets [:(]




JAMiAM -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/4/2007 12:49:30 AM)

I like to think of wargaming forums as roughly equivalent to a non-stop gaming convention, only with cheaper food, closer toilet facilities, better ventilation, and much less body odor. 



Prince of Eckmühl -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/4/2007 3:25:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Our posts are devoid of crucial elements necessary to REAL human discourse. Body language, tone of voice, subtle word use inflection are all vital components of proper communication (smilies simply don’t cut it).



That's why you have to careful as to how you approach others. It's too easy to be misunderstood, 'Net personas too easily bruised. And don't think that the wounds will simply disappear with time.

I've moderated two fairly active groups, one a company forum associated with two specific games, and a second, a fansite, again associated with two (other) games. Looking back, I can't help but believe that they were notable for their atmosphere, an ambience that was at once both congenial and collegial. I'd like to grant at least partial credit for this to myself, but modesty and the role of so many others in shaping the communities deters me from doing so.

Still, the forums had some things in common:

1) Posters weren't allowed to use the forums to generate personal profit.

2) Posters were treated fairly, without regard to their "rank" within the forum.

3) Posters weren't allowed to dissemble, to "manage" discussion in such a way as to benefit themselves or their associates.

4) Moderators moderated; they weren't closet front-men for third parties.

5) MOST IMPORTANTLY, the forums were about the game(s). As long as you were active because you were interested in OUR games, you were TOTALLY welcome and were treated as such.

About that last point...

If, at any point, game-disussion groups, either a company forum, like this one, or one associated with a fansite, become a vehicle for anything other than (the) game(s), then school's out. The discussion will be devoid of useful discourse because the games aren't the focus of members' energy. What's left will be an agenda, attired in the cloak of an advocate, one whose ends are his own, and not those of the general good. And the best intentioned group member will be unable to make it otherwise. That's just the way that these joints work.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)






Rooster -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/4/2007 4:07:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
Our posts are devoid of crucial elements necessary to REAL human discourse. Body language, tone of voice, subtle word use inflection are all vital components of proper communication (smilies simply don’t cut it).


Hmmmm. Nothing wrong with what you say, but I would hope to challenge you.[:)] Not that these forums could be a replacement for in-person intercourse (tee heee!). But they can be a nice addition. Or even account for a large portion of your day to day interaction.

After all, what is the true value of real human intercourse? I mean, if I lie to someone face to face, ignore them, patronize them, fail to really listen because I'm only concerned about what I say next, dismiss them, belittle them, verbally abuse them, physically abuse them, or become a victim of any of these "real" human interactions, what's the value?

Fulfillment in interacting online is more about expectations and ideas. It's more about the treatment you receive and give. It might never be AS good as the "real" thing... but it can be a nice side of french fries with your hamburger.

It can be hard to communicate this way - often I feel like my posts miss their mark too. But it's sort of like golfing for me... it only takes a good swing out of 90 (more like 120[;)]) to make me want to keep coming back for more.



old man of the sea -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/4/2007 4:15:52 AM)

what......you mean.......this isn't real?

What!?!

Uhhhhhhh, like you know, I've been on forums of one sort or another for 15 years, and I got all that down in a day 15 years ago.

I do agree with you les the sarge.

E



ravinhood -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/4/2007 8:16:19 AM)

If you started out on AOL like I did you learned pretty fast what the internet was about. Lying, back stabbing, cheating, griping, whinning, complaining, crying, scams, broken hearts, heart breaking, vulgarity (lot of this), political, religious bull bashing, enuendo's of all kinds, threats, and much much more. Because of this is the reason I never saw much reason for making "friendships" over the internet. Too many variables and I personally like to see into the eyes of someone I'm considering for friendship. So, no really there is no such thing as a community such as you have in your own little pockets of life. It's more like just a gathering of "minds" to argue basically. lol Thing is I don't argue with my friends, we always pretty much agree on things from what beer to drink to which game we're gonna play or watch on tv (sports).  Don't see much of that on the internet. ;)



Raverdave -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/4/2007 12:37:04 PM)

Actully from this forum I have met a number of people in the "flesh" and have found them to all be good blokes.  Some are even good mates. 



jvgfanatic -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/4/2007 1:08:16 PM)

I started a website several years back devoted to a certain type of game. It grew to about 30 or so contributors who all gave it there best over 9 or so years. The site itself has since closed its doors but it's forums still run quite strong. We are a group of people that would go above and beyond for each other. Three of us have have started families and almost everyone at the site has met someone else from the site in the flesh. None of us knew each other before the site's creation and in the time that the forums have been around we've all grown quite fond of one another. Our forums are pretty much closed now unless someone is invited and we see about one new member every year or two yet the forums still get several posts a day from nearly everyone. It is definitely a virtual community of sorts and we have nearly every age category on board (though most of our youngest members who were in high school when the site started are now in their twenties). Our members are from England, US, and Japan.



a white rabbit -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/4/2007 2:51:44 PM)

..Les_the_Sarge_9_1..

..you know, i couldn't disagree more, you're looking at this all wrong...

..how many years have we crossed swords, citoyen ? ("comrade" in American)..

..any time you want to do this in a real bar around my geographical location, sorry but i'm real busy clearing up someone's incompetant colonial rule [:D] in a small valley that's very dear to my heart , then you're welcome...

..be warned however, i've gone native agin ol' boy, d'mmit..

..it's a problem with being an area officer...

..doncha just luv Kipling...



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/4/2007 3:40:32 PM)

You guys have given me a lot of things to mull over. I am happy for that.

I have to admit, been on forums for 7 years, been chatting through messengers since about 1990 (most of the before forum time was on ICQ), and I have always been too much the "want to see the good too much to notice the bad" in over all viewpoint.
As such, I guess I just took too much for granted probably.

Sometimes I marvel at how I can know so much text book knowledge, but know so little of ordinary life at the same time. I can be dreadfully naive some times.



a white rabbit -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/4/2007 3:57:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

You guys have given me a lot of things to mull over. I am happy for that.

I have to admit, been on forums for 7 years, been chatting through messengers since about 1990 (most of the before forum time was on ICQ), and I have always been too much the "want to see the good too much to notice the bad" in over all viewpoint.
As such, I guess I just took too much for granted probably.

Sometimes I marvel at how I can know so much text book knowledge, but know so little of ordinary life at the same time. I can be dreadfully naive some times.



..it evolves, at the start it was native english speakers, then we got the French, the Germans, the Finns (arggh the Finns), the Poles, the Russians and so on..even some Aussies (so refreshing) and Anzacks..

..now, ? we've all moved, and others, Asian for the most part are coming in, and imo, it's also part of a white man's burden to welcome and help them..

..freedom's just some people talking..Les_t_S, nothing more..or less.....



Zap -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/5/2007 4:45:29 AM)

The only way to be real for you then. Is everyone, hooked up to a web cam so you can look at the person your talking to.

Well, even if looking face to face; the persons involved in a coversation still might be hiding who they really are.


Real human discourse takes place when people represent themselves honestly no matter what form it takes.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/5/2007 5:06:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

The only way to be real for you then. Is everyone, hooked up to a web cam so you can look at the person your talking to.

Well, even if looking face to face; the persons involved in a coversation still might be hiding who they really are.


Real human discourse takes place when people represent themselves honestly no matter what form it takes.


It's true, in person, a person can be entirely false, fake, phoney, we usually call them politicians :)

But even though I have met persons I KNEW were not being genuine, it's usually very plain the person is not being genuine.

Still, a person that is angry, when viewed, will not be mistaken for a person in a good mood and laughing.

I have in many cases in the past, been mistaken as angry or hostile, when really, I just dropped the ball and posted a poorly written post and wasn't even close to being upset. The words just looked that way.



Mad Cow -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/5/2007 6:53:40 AM)

"I'm not gone, I'm right behind you."

That may be the most disturbing thing I have ever read in someones sig.



Brigz -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/5/2007 7:06:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Cow

"I'm not gone, I'm right behind you."

That may be the most disturbing thing I have ever read in someones sig.

LOL! Totally missed seeing that sig. All it needs is a hockey mask and a butcher knife.

Sorry Les, but it is kind of spooky.



UndercoverNotChickenSalad -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/5/2007 7:44:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Cow

"I'm not gone, I'm right behind you."

That may be the most disturbing thing I have ever read in someones sig.


Bend over, vinny [8D]



Mad Cow -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/5/2007 7:52:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UndercoverNotChickenSalad


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Cow

"I'm not gone, I'm right behind you."

That may be the most disturbing thing I have ever read in someones sig.


Bend over, vinny [8D]



[image]http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f156/painteddwagun/oh-no-you-didnt.jpg[/image]



Kuokkanen -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/5/2007 11:38:39 AM)

quote:

then we got the French, the Germans, the Finns (arggh the Finns)

What's wrong with Finns [&:]



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/5/2007 2:35:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UndercoverNotChickenSalad


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Cow

"I'm not gone, I'm right behind you."

That may be the most disturbing thing I have ever read in someones sig.


Bend over, vinny [8D]


It's MEANT to be spooky. I'm crazier than they think, just not the crazy that they think :)



Twotribes -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/5/2007 6:57:35 PM)

Every community is Unique. It develops based on its needs and wants and its participants. The Internet is a community and is in fact many communities. No they are not all alike and NO they are not exactly like face to face communities. But so what? Every community that exsists outside the Internet is different also and has its own rules and taboos and accepted norms.

Any community one joins requires, if you want to be a successful part of said community, that you learn and grow and accept the norms of that specific community. If you cant or wont you wont fit in.

Comparing one community to another is like comparing Football and Baseball. While one can do it, they are not the same so wont lend themselves well to most comparisons.



Knuckles_85 -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/6/2007 3:24:21 AM)

I can't believe I spent 3 minutes reading this pretentious bullshit. This line from Billy Madison sums it up perfectly:

"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."



a white rabbit -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/6/2007 6:08:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

quote:

then we got the French, the Germans, the Finns (arggh the Finns)

What's wrong with Finns [&:]


..nothing that a decent climate wouldn't rectify..[;)]

..however the few movies that actually escaped yr freezing winter/ midge ridden summer enviroment, and were at least subtitled in english were excellent..



a white rabbit -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/6/2007 6:11:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Every community is Unique. It develops based on its needs and wants and its participants. The Internet is a community and is in fact many communities. No they are not all alike and NO they are not exactly like face to face communities. But so what? Every community that exsists outside the Internet is different also and has its own rules and taboos and accepted norms.

Any community one joins requires, if you want to be a successful part of said community, that you learn and grow and accept the norms of that specific community. If you cant or wont you wont fit in.

Comparing one community to another is like comparing Football and Baseball. While one can do it, they are not the same so wont lend themselves well to most comparisons.


..don't you mean football and cricket ?...



mlees -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/6/2007 8:09:22 PM)

quote:

Body language, tone of voice, subtle word use inflection are all vital components of proper communication (smilies simply don’t cut it).


I agree that the written word is limited in that it cannot convey gestural and facial expressions that can add a subtle change the point one is making.

quote:

My posts rarely “look” exactly the way I require. What I post is essentially missing too many elements of real conversation. It’s no surprise responses are constantly “unfortunate” as a result.


It takes practice. Keep at it! [:)]

I have been posting on different forums only for about 3-4 years now, but while my skills are only slowly improving (both my writing skills, as well as my presentation/argument point making skills), I think my experience has been for my own good.

Being exposed to more folks than the tiny circle I move in during my daily activities helps to broaden my understanding of how other folks may perceive things...

I also moderate my own posts (or at least I attempt to...) with the understanding that miscommunication can be a factor in the "conversation". I "sound" more intelligent posting on forums than I do with the spoken word because of the very nature that I can go back and self edit my responces.

(It's easier to backspace over "your an idiot" than it is to take back an uttered "your an idiot" to someone's face...)

quote:

A forum is just an emagazine with many contributors. It can be read, and discarded casually. Being free, it is valued like all free things inevitably are. Maybe it shouldn’t be free.


I am not sure if you mean that you feel that the behavior or intellectual honesty of the posters would change if the forum was a fee based membership community.

If you do, let me assure you that it definately would not. I am a member of the Straightdope board as of this year. ($15/year membership.) There are plenty of stubborn and disrespectfull folks there, too.

For me, I start to recognise individual poster's names and/or avatars, and I tend to see a pattern of either a reasonable poster, or a habitual troll. Ignore the trolls, and converse with the folks that you "get along" with.



freeboy -> RE: The Illusion of “community” (2/6/2007 9:45:05 PM)

what we need is a whole new langauge that incorperates all the other elements, ie body langauge etc, but then we would be too self aware! oops just farted, hope that was enough body art for one day!



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