O chits (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> AI Opponent Discussion



Message

Chaylaton -> O chits (2/21/2007 3:00:31 PM)

Ok its m/a 1940 I just brook a hole into the french line using my first of 2 o chits that germany starts with. As a strategy how often should germany or japan for that matter, since i'm playing the axis in my first 4 map game, purchase more o chits i mean they cost 15 pnts! Btw way I almost in the last turn used japans o chit on an attack that would have cut the burma rd and left a gaping hole in the southern china defense. But the experienced player said are you sure man that is usually used on the super combined so they can spread out quickly when fighting the Common wealth the first time. I have also thought about using it on Russia since they A: havn't offered me any resources to set up a non aggression pack and B: the russian player keeps railing troups over to threaten manchuria. So get me advice please[&:]

Chaylaton




Froonp -> RE: O chits (2/21/2007 5:18:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaylaton

Ok its m/a 1940 I just brook a hole into the french line using my first of 2 o chits that germany starts with. As a strategy how often should germany or japan for that matter, since i'm playing the axis in my first 4 map game, purchase more o chits i mean they cost 15 pnts!

There are two aspects to consider :
- The sheer shock power of the OC in combat. This aspect of the OC occurs 1 time, but is very efficient.
- The psychological power of the OC on your enemy's mind. This effect occurs all the time when you have 1 OC in reserve. Your enemy respects you even more, when you have 1 spare OC, he hesitate more to decide for an assault that could fail and leave him desorganized, or without air cover.
Hence, having ALWAYS at least 1 spare OC is a must be for me, for any country that can afford having OC, which are the USA, USSR and Germany, and also Japan and the CW if they have a wealthy economy.

There is a third thing to consider about OC, is that it is useless to have more than 1 OC if you do not have the bulk of an Army. So, with already 1 OC for 1941, you'd better buy an army rather than buy a second OC, that might be useful, but do not add to the psychological effect.

So, in your case, having played one in M/A 40, you still have another one for Barb (or else) 41, but then in the Fall of 41 you should buy a new OC.

quote:

Btw way I almost in the last turn used japans o chit on an attack that would have cut the burma rd and left a gaping hole in the southern china defense. But the experienced player said are you sure man that is usually used on the super combined so they can spread out quickly when fighting the Common wealth the first time. I have also thought about using it on Russia since they A: havn't offered me any resources to set up a non aggression pack and B: the russian player keeps railing troups over to threaten manchuria. So get me advice please[&:]

Well, not having the OC for making a Super Combined on the first impulse of the Japanese onslaught is not good for Japan, that will be left with the choice of either make his onslaught in 2 impulses (one Naval, and then one Land), or make a mini onslaught with a simple Combined.
This is very important for the Japanese to be able to sail lots of TF AND invade in lots of places when he starts his onslaught, so being under this condition is bad for him.

Edit : Corrected "onslaught" spelling [:D]



Neilster -> RE: O chits (2/22/2007 8:08:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaylaton

Ok its m/a 1940 I just brook a hole into the french line using my first of 2 o chits that germany starts with. As a strategy how often should germany or japan for that matter, since i'm playing the axis in my first 4 map game, purchase more o chits i mean they cost 15 pnts!

There are two aspects to consider :
- The sheer shock power of the OC in combat. This aspect of the OC occurs 1 time, but is very efficient.
- The psychological power of the OC on your enemy's mind. This effect occurs all the time when you have 1 OC in reserve. Your enemy respects you even more, when you have 1 spare OC, he hesitate more to decide for an assault that could fail and leave him desorganized, or without air cover.
Hence, having ALWAYS at least 1 spare OC is a must be for me, for any country that can afford having OC, which are the USA, USSR and Germany, and also Japan and the CW if they have a wealthy economy.

There is a third thing to consider about OC, is that it is useless to have more than 1 OC if you do not have the bulk of an Army. So, with already 1 OC for 1941, you'd better buy an army rather than buy a second OC, that might be useful, but do not add to the psychological effect.

So, in your case, having played one in M/A 40, you still have another one for Barb (or else) 41, but then in the Fall of 41 you should buy a new OC.

quote:

Btw way I almost in the last turn used japans o chit on an attack that would have cut the burma rd and left a gaping hole in the southern china defense. But the experienced player said are you sure man that is usually used on the super combined so they can spread out quickly when fighting the Common wealth the first time. I have also thought about using it on Russia since they A: havn't offered me any resources to set up a non aggression pack and B: the russian player keeps railing troups over to threaten manchuria. So get me advice please[&:]

Well, not having the OC for making a Super Combined on the first impulse of the Japanese onslaught is not good for Japan, that will be left with the choice of either make his onslaugh in 2 impulses (one Naval, and then one Land), or make a mini onslaugh with a simple Combined.
This is very important for the Japanese to be able to sail lots of TF AND invade in lots of places when he starts his onslaugh, so being under this condition is bad for him.


Hi Patrice. Good advice. I thought you might like to know that the word is "onslaught" not "onslaugh". As in "slaughter".

BTW, I haven't been very active because I've been extremely busy with university exams and then I didn't have an internet connection (due to losing my uni one and the impoverishment so typical of student life [:(])

Anyway, after watching heaps of cricket and tennis and drinking heroic quantities of home-brew for a while (OK, quite a while), I got serious about applying for jobs and got one straight away. I just started work as a software developer/analyst for a local company called ICS Multimedia. It's going pretty well so far (end of 3rd day [:'(]).

http://www.icsmultimedia.com.au/

Cheers, Neilster

edit: Ahh...I see you used it correctly first time. Pardon Monsieur.



Frederyck -> RE: O chits (2/22/2007 11:16:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
I just started work as a software developer/analyst for a local company called ICS Multimedia. It's going pretty well so far (end of 3rd day [:'(]).


Congratulations!!!

And to stay on topic - I usually plan on using an O-Chit for every major undertaking my country has to tackle. Taking Italy? Plan to spend an O-Chit. Going for Gibraltar? Plan to spend an O-Chit. Taking on Russia? Have that chit ready. Etc. It is probably a good idea to have that in mind when planning the war from the start. As to when I actually *use* the o-chit, that really depends on the current tactics.

So to your original question - should you spend an O-Chit in China? It depends on what your overall strategy is. Do you plan to eradicate China? Then it's probably a good idea to deliver a telling blow early on. Do you plan to just gain some hexes in China and then expand in the Pacific - well, you should probably wait with spending it.



38special -> RE: O chits (2/26/2007 4:25:50 AM)

I would rather have two armor units and an infantry.
That said, it does a handy job on Gibralter though.[:)]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: O chits (2/26/2007 12:19:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 38special

I would rather have two armor units and an infantry.
That said, it does a handy job on Gibralter though.[:)]

Welcome to the forum. You might want to read the Directory thread for an overview of this forum. There are also threads on the tutorials and a lot of screen shots of the map and units/counters. I read all comments and suggestions with great interest.

Rob has finished the map for Central America and I'll try to post screen shots of that map segment ASAP. However, right now I am in the middle of revising all references to sea areas, so it might take me a day of two.



composer99 -> RE: O chits (2/26/2007 7:45:22 PM)

O-chits are tremendously useful devices (when they are in the hands of my opponents I refer to them by a different word, just change a letter around and you'll see what I mean). [;)]

Aside from the war-starting supercombined that Japan usually uses its start-of-game O-chit for, if it keeps its production up enough during the game (adequate convoy protection and a little luck), the Japanese should consider having one or two built later to provide extra oomph if they need to (to pick a not-so-random-example) take the Bonin Islands or Manila back from the Allies.

The Germans can also benefit from O-chits both early on to energize their offensives in France, Russia, or Spain/Gib, or provide a supercomibined to invade England and late in the game to engineer massive withdrawals to better defence lines (no air unit left behind!) and/or blast Allied beacheads back into the sea (or Russian probes across the Vistula).

Finally, the Allies will by the late game be spending O-chits like water, either to provide the all-important supercombineds or to bludgeon their way through Germany's lines. The USA and USSR in particular should by the tail end of '43 be cranking them out.



Jimm -> RE: O chits (2/26/2007 8:55:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

O-chits are tremendously useful devices (when they are in the hands of my opponents I refer to them by a different word, just change a letter around and you'll see what I mean). [;)]

Aside from the war-starting supercombined that Japan usually uses its start-of-game O-chit for, if it keeps its production up enough during the game (adequate convoy protection and a little luck), the Japanese should consider having one or two built later to provide extra oomph if they need to (to pick a not-so-random-example) take the Bonin Islands or Manila back from the Allies.

The Germans can also benefit from O-chits both early on to energize their offensives in France, Russia, or Spain/Gib, or provide a supercomibined to invade England and late in the game to engineer massive withdrawals to better defence lines (no air unit left behind!) and/or blast Allied beacheads back into the sea (or Russian probes across the Vistula).

Finally, the Allies will by the late game be spending O-chits like water, either to provide the all-important supercombineds or to bludgeon their way through Germany's lines. The USA and USSR in particular should by the tail end of '43 be cranking them out.


Steve, have you looked at OC usage by the AI in the game yet? As this thread illustrates, there is a lot of conventional wisdom about when they should get played (and how they fit into build strategy) but there are often occasions where the not-so-conventional is the right way to go.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: O chits (2/26/2007 11:22:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimm
Steve, have you looked at OC usage by the AI in the game yet? As this thread illustrates, there is a lot of conventional wisdom about when they should get played (and how they fit into build strategy) but there are often occasions where the not-so-conventional is the right way to go.


I have given this some thought.

During a turn, the AIO assesses whether playing an Offensive chit is worth the cost in build points. The comparison is between:
1 - combat value points (CVP) gained through playing the OC,
2 - combat value points 'lost' by not being able to build more units during the production phase with the build points spent to replace the OC,
3 - the expected value of another OC,
4 - the psychological value of holding 1 or more OCs (some arbitrary, or perhaps calculated, CVP).

There are more details to be worked out, but I see offensive chits as being no different that any other combat unit (e.g., armor, tactical bomber, submarine) in that they have a fixed cost to build in build points (but dynamic cost in 'lost' CVPs of the other units that could have been buit with those BPs); and they have a dynamic value in CVPs during play. And also like any other unit type, their value can decrease as more units of that type are built/on the map/available.



composer99 -> RE: O chits (2/27/2007 1:31:05 AM)

I suppose I should be flattered at being referenced as the "conventional" wisdom. [:'(] Now if I could only find that "embarrassed" smiley.

However, to stay on topic (more or less), I should add that Andrew Rader, who I consider to be a very good WiF player [&o][&o][&o], doesn't build a lot of offensive chits.



coregames -> RE: O chits (2/27/2007 7:48:52 PM)

OCs are best purchased by the powers that can afford them. Germany can really benefit from having an OC going into each campaign season against Russia. Gibralter might take more than one. The U.S. obviously cranks them out late in the war. Other powers should be sparing in the purchase of OCs, since they can really screw up gearing limits.



Jimm -> RE: O chits (2/27/2007 9:14:16 PM)

I love OC's for their one-off "Special move" ability but find them utterly depressing when churned out by the allies in the endgame. When you are on the recieving end of a well executed OC - like a super combined German Sealion for instance, you can shrug your shoulders and appreciate at least that it was pretty special.




composer99 -> RE: O chits (2/28/2007 4:50:59 PM)

One power that I have never seen build O-chits is Italy (if they reach the stage where their possessions are secure enough to consider building one, the Axis have probably already won, rendering such a purchase redundant).

I haven't personally seen China build offensive chits, but I have heard of it happening.



trees -> RE: O chits (3/6/2007 5:27:28 AM)

don't over look the value of the 'reorganize all HQs' option. This can be very handy for the Red Air Force for example. From the midgame on O-chits are necessary for getting around the action limits imposed on all the pieces of cardboard you have all over the map. I don't value their 'psychological' value as much; when the other side has them there is little you can do about it. I always just hope they use them to take a difficult hex or two rather than the re-org HQs or supercombineds and such.



composer99 -> RE: O chits (3/9/2007 4:19:45 PM)

Don't underestimate the power of using O-chits on land impulses. Those can obliterate enemy lines in short order, especially when used on the Western Front in sequence by the CW and USA. My German partner at WiFCon had an excellent line along the Pyrennes get vapourized, throwing him back to the Seine in summer '43, even though the Western Allies didn't have really all that many boots on the ground.



coregames -> RE: O chits (3/9/2007 6:10:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

One power that I have never seen build O-chits is Italy (if they reach the stage where their possessions are secure enough to consider building one, the Axis have probably already won, rendering such a purchase redundant).

I haven't personally seen China build offensive chits, but I have heard of it happening.


In our last game, I was Japan/Italy, and Italy did have an OC at the end. The Allies had such a great beachhead in the Netherlands that they decided to focus on Germany, skipping Italy almost entirely. At the beginning of Jul/Aug '45, we resigned, even though I had a fairly large force near Vienna and an OC, ready to take it back. We realized that if they took Vienna on the first impulse, and I took it back on the second, they still had overwhelming force with many OCs and were guaranteed to take it again. Game over.



coregames -> RE: O chits (3/9/2007 6:17:04 PM)

Does anyone prefer the old naval OC over the new one? I do, because of shore bombardment, but some like the new version.



Froonp -> RE: O chits (3/9/2007 6:30:34 PM)

Also, about Offensive Chits, there is the Mighty Anglo-Saxon Steamroller that needs to be mentionned.

This usually happens in the Western front, a couple of times in late 1944 and often in 1945.

This consist of the CW (usually) playing an Offensive Air while the USA play an Offensive Land.
This requires the CW to have a good HQ positionned amongst US troops, so that the shock Ground Strikes and Carpet Bombings can be made in front of the US troops, to make the line of defense brittle (or even non existent), and who will then blow out through the line.

Each time I've used this, the ultra powerful German defense was at least severely mauled, and often completely pierced with wide open holes, that required it to fall back to another defensive line.

This also required the western allies to somehow dominate the skies, which is often achieved in late 44 and 45.



Froonp -> RE: O chits (3/9/2007 6:34:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames

Does anyone prefer the old naval OC over the new one? I do, because of shore bombardment, but some like the new version.

I prefered the old naval OC, and have used it to great advantages in the Pacific a couple of times.
Not for Shore Bombardement, but to lure the Japanese fleet in a trap and devastate it as hard as possible, or to land double the allowed number of troops ashore in Japan, or both.

I seem to remember that Steve agreed to keep the old naval OC as an option in the game. I would have prefered if RAW (and MWiF) had allowed for the choice of which naval OC you wished to use, but that's not the case (yet ?).



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: O chits (3/9/2007 9:27:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames
Does anyone prefer the old naval OC over the new one? I do, because of shore bombardment, but some like the new version.

I prefered the old naval OC, and have used it to great advantages in the Pacific a couple of times.
Not for Shore Bombardement, but to lure the Japanese fleet in a trap and devastate it as hard as possible, or to land double the allowed number of troops ashore in Japan, or both.

I seem to remember that Steve agreed to keep the old naval OC as an option in the game. I would have prefered if RAW (and MWiF) had allowed for the choice of which naval OC you wished to use, but that's not the case (yet ?).

I am still undecided about which version of the rules to use for the naval Offensive Chit. One possibility is to make it an option within an option (using O-Chits is one if the optional rules). My memory is a little hazy on the two versions and I would have to read them again, but my bias is towards the old one (and that is already coded, if I am not mistaken). I'll look into it in more detail when I review the OC rules.



coregames -> RE: O chits (3/11/2007 6:04:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
My memory is a little hazy on the two versions and I would have to read them again, but my bias is towards the old one (and that is already coded, if I am not mistaken).


The old way reorganized boats, and the new way allows re-rolling search rolls.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: O chits (4/9/2020 2:58:55 AM)

Bump.



Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
2