Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (Full Version)

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Gil R. -> Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/22/2007 7:26:01 PM)

For this patch I plan to tweak the LU's datafile a bit, and am looking for input.

As you've probably noticed, most LU's come into action with just "Improvised" weapons, but a few come in with specific guns -- guns that the historical units used. I added these guns based on what little information I could glean from the Web when I was creating these units. (Sadly, the Web rarely mentions what types of guns famous brigades and regiments used.) If anyone knows of any guns that should be assigned to units on a historical basis, please let me know.

Also, I'm open to suggestions regarding special abilities or brigade attributes LU's should have. Everything you see is based on info I got from the Web or a single reference book, and it wasn't always obvious what the units in the game should be like.

Plus, if there are any errors this would be a good time to draw them to my attention.



christof139 -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/22/2007 10:15:42 PM)

The 24th MI Inf. Regt. had Austrian Rifles if I am not mistaken, and I believe perhaps 1 or 2 other units in the Western Iron Bde. had Lorenz, but am not sure. It may be one or more of the Wisconsin units had SBs early on. I have one or 2 books about the Bde. and the 24th Regimental history by OB Curtis a member, actually prchased in Lansing at the State Historical Museum during a lunch break during training years ago.

Problem is, that even as late as Gettysburg, many if not most Union Rgeiments had Companies armed with different weapons, making it even harder to come up with an answer. Can't remember if the Vermont Bde. had SBs at Gettysburg, but it seems so in my memory, and I think a couple other Union Regiments that flanked the Confeds. during the Pickett-Pettigrew charge had SBs, would have to look at a map or read to find this info., but I think there were 2 Ohio Regts. that also flanked the charge.

The entire Union Irish Bde. at Antietam had SBs as far as can be discerned.

Chris



christof139 -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/22/2007 10:17:23 PM)

The 4th MI Inf. Regt. also had SBs, and they have a nice website, and being associated with the 5th as you are, you may have been to the 4th's site already. Some good humor there concerning those SBs.

Chris



Drex -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 12:54:27 AM)

Chris, what are SBs?



Walloc -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 2:36:08 AM)

Smoothbored I assume, aka muskets. At leased as far as i recall since i know parts of Iron Brigade had Smoothbored muskets at Gettysburg.

Kind Regards,

Rasmus



christof139 -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 1:21:47 PM)

Yup, SBs = Smoothbores, and RMs = Rifled Muskets, from wargame rules, it saves writing.

Somewhere on the inet is posted, at least in part, a list of the firearms carried by the units at Gettysburg, some fellows PhD. thesis I think, and it is a real mess concerning the RMs and SBs, as many Companies within regiments had different arms. Some Regiments are uniformly equipped though.

I have to find this link, and I had it on my old hard drive that crashed before I copied anything.

I think this book or thesis is fairly new, not sure as I can't remember the title or date of publication, but I think I just found it browsing one day. It is a well known work now, I just don't remember the title and author. Maybe I found it on a Google search, I don't know.

Chris



Ironclad -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 1:57:46 PM)

Interesting and a useful corrective to the US player imperative to equip the army with the most up to date weapons in the first year let alone as late as mid 1863. The same tends to apply to the CS gameplay, although more limited by available resources and reliant on battlefield captures.

The US historical experience is matched by the late war use of smoothbores by the Confederacy eg in the army of Tennessee during the Atlanta campaign.

It all suggests that historically other priorities had a higher call on resources than getting everyone armed with the best possible weapons.

It might just be that neither side could do any better - which for the North in particular raises some interesting questions. How quickly did it produce large numbers of modern weapons? What contribution did foreign purchases make (and how much money was wasted through duplicated and competing purchasing efforts?) Were they all getting to frontline units? Was weapon wastage much higher than we tend to imagine? (ie not just battle loses, but weapons being abandoned in large numbers during retreats).

Were other priorities eg the fleet, industry or field/heavy artillery the reason why modern infantry arms flowed so less swiftly into the historical armies than games ones?

The fact that the North wasn't as quick to modernise its infantry weapons helps to explain why the South could live with the delays for its own forces. Admittedly in the later stages of the war it just couldn't match the North's modern weapons either technically or quantatively.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 2:58:02 PM)

Absolutely - in-game first year weapon upgrades are a priority when I play, but only as far as switching out Improvised to Muskets. There's too much else to do in that first year to be affording Springfields or better for everyone. In time, when the economy kicks in, you get the Rifle Manufacture upgrade, etc. then some nicer weapons start getting to the troops.

Regards,

- Erik



Andy Mac -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 3:22:35 PM)

Hmmm interesting as the Union I tend to go all out to equip 1 Good Corps with the best weapons I can as soon as I can.

My standard Union Corps is 3 Divs of 3 Inf Bdes all (>3 quality) with an attached Sniper, Cav and Arty Bde (when I can afford em)



Ironclad -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 3:27:32 PM)

Yes I agree out of improvised is the beginning but I do go for minies for high and then medium quality units asap. Springfields are more promised land territory and reserved for elite units. By contrast attributes spending, except for infantry conversions, tends to take second place.

It just seems such a difference to the historical example of an elite unit like the Iron Brigade having some troops still with smoothbores in July 1863.



General Quarters -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 3:58:33 PM)

When I first started playing, I was surprised that units did not begin at least with muskets. I am not sure just what improvised refers to. But I do know that some units arrived without much of anything. I read, maybe it was on this forum, about one unit actually charging with only sticks.

I still would have thought that most units had muskets right from the beginning. By what year, historically, would you say that the entire armies were equipped with at least muskets?



Erik Rutins -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 4:04:14 PM)

Improvised means that they have a mix of both issued and home-brought weapons, could be some hunting muskets, shotguns, etc. The end result is less than equipping all with Muskets, but a bit better than all Shotguns. A lot of units early on had this uneven mix of weapons. As far as when all had at least muskets, I don't know - I'd guess by the end of 1862.



Ironclad -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 4:12:21 PM)

In Price's Missouri raid late 1864 his large and unwieldy force included 4000 new recruits without weapons.



christof139 -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 5:41:08 PM)

I like the game mechanic where you can get captured weapons from winning a battle and routing and surrendering enemy troops. Very nice and historical.

When the North assaults the NE Southern coast in the early to mid parts of the game, and those assaults are beaten back, then the Northern troops surrender because their supply can be cut-off and you get lots of captured small arms, as you no doubt know. So, I left some Bdes. equipped with the captured Sprinfields and Minies etc. and rename them and transferred them up to Lee's ANV, but kept some along the coast in garrison as a surprise to us, I mean them infernal Yankee devils.

The overall game mechanics are pretty darn good, and for a game of such a wide scope, work good for the initial production run of the game. All the bugs and tweaks and stuff are being ironed out, so the patch #2 will make things smoother.

And yes, thanx for all the work and time and effortput into the making of this game. It is a biggie, big game, lots of work.

Chris





christof139 -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 6:26:21 PM)

I got your post at the locked thread. Sorry. I am not an angel, just a mere mortal. Someday someone just may pour a bucket of liquified bat guano or horse manure over someone's big-head, quite desrvedly IMHO. Ice cold water would be OK. I know, I was targetted once in the good old days, however the water was red and sticky, not blood fortunately, but rather a tavern's fruit punch. very good and learning experience, and actually quite hilarious. I wonder where some people live, what their main malfunction is, what their education and experience level is, etc.

Yeah, various projects can last a long time, as can college, wars, the Winter, injuries, diseases, 1 second seeming like an eternity in certain situations (the slo-mo effect), burning homes, or whatever. I see no 'blood' in designing a computer game, unless it is green monetary layout blood, some sweat and tears though. Nothing like losing a file(s), having a HD crash, hunting for a little bug, etc. Maybe a bit of a melodramatic phrase to use??

Chris







Plainian -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 6:34:17 PM)

A good 'unofficial' list of how units were armed is to look at the old Battleground/Talonsoft ACW games and of course the newer HPS ACW titles. The type of weapon a unit was armed with is very important in these games so I would hazard a guess that this area was researched fairly well.

Unfortunately the types are broken down into basic types eg musket/rifle/shotgun/mixed etc and not by actual make.

Information is contained in an exportable oob text file so you don't have to open up the game scenarios to check, although I had a quick look at Picketts Charge to see if any US units still had muskets by 1863....didn't see any.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 8:02:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: christof139

I like the game mechanic where you can get captured weapons from winning a battle and routing and surrendering enemy troops. Very nice and historical.

When the North assaults the NE Southern coast in the early to mid parts of the game, and those assaults are beaten back, then the Northern troops surrender because their supply can be cut-off and you get lots of captured small arms, as you no doubt know. So, I left some Bdes. equipped with the captured Sprinfields and Minies etc. and rename them and transferred them up to Lee's ANV, but kept some along the coast in garrison as a surprise to us, I mean them infernal Yankee devils.

we got some changes added that we were trying for way back when, but didn't have the time to get in and working, so the SeaLandings are no longer all or nothing affairs, still not something to be done lightly, but if it fails, not as damageing, still HURTS though


The overall game mechanics are pretty darn good, and for a game of such a wide scope, work good for the initial production run of the game. All the bugs and tweaks and stuff are being ironed out, so the patch #2 will make things smoother.

we got some good changes comeing and the new Campaign may feel much better for the Union Camp, it is going to be a good Patch/Update/Version when we get it all togeather


And yes, thanx for all the work and time and effortput into the making of this game. It is a biggie, big game, lots of work.

we been able to get alot of ideas in, from the posters here and the testers themself

Chris






Hard Sarge -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 8:09:09 PM)

By the By, remember on the LUs or Elites units, it was never about what weapons they had, it was what the men had, in a perfect world, you would want to be sure to give your best men the best weapons and place them into the best places for combat, but wars are not perfect and lots of the LU's became that way, while proving themselfs

by standing there ground, when all else ran, by chargeing when the smart thing to do was to stand, to fight on and die, when the smart thing would of been to run and hide

Weapons didn't make the LUs, the men did and there Guts and there Honor and what they gave up

(we got a change in, to be sure that the LU's get a morale bump when they come in, so they are better able to show that trait)





GenGrunt -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 8:18:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: christof139

I like the game mechanic where you can get captured weapons from winning a battle and routing and surrendering enemy troops. Very nice and historical.

When the North assaults the NE Southern coast in the early to mid parts of the game, and those assaults are beaten back, then the Northern troops surrender because their supply can be cut-off and you get lots of captured small arms, as you no doubt know. So, I left some Bdes. equipped with the captured Sprinfields and Minies etc. and rename them and transferred them up to Lee's ANV, but kept some along the coast in garrison as a surprise to us, I mean them infernal Yankee devils.

The overall game mechanics are pretty darn good, and for a game of such a wide scope, work good for the initial production run of the game. All the bugs and tweaks and stuff are being ironed out, so the patch #2 will make things smoother.

And yes, thanx for all the work and time and effortput into the making of this game. It is a biggie, big game, lots of work.

Chris





Yes this was vital to the South since they couldn't produce enough weapons of their own. Stonewall Jackson was well know for getting all the booty possible from the field, especially what the South needed most, medical supplies. In the Valley campaign where he gained so much from Nathan Banks that his troops called him "commissary" Banks and again at Manassas Junction where he captured the huge supply dump of the Union Army.



chris0827 -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 8:43:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: christof139

I got your post at the locked thread. Sorry. I am not an angel, just a mere mortal. Someday someone just may pour a bucket of liquified bat guano or horse manure over someone's big-head, quite desrvedly IMHO. Ice cold water would be OK. I know, I was targetted once in the good old days, however the water was red and sticky, not blood fortunately, but rather a tavern's fruit punch. very good and learning experience, and actually quite hilarious. I wonder where some people live, what their main malfunction is, what their education and experience level is, etc.

Yeah, various projects can last a long time, as can college, wars, the Winter, injuries, diseases, 1 second seeming like an eternity in certain situations (the slo-mo effect), burning homes, or whatever. I see no 'blood' in designing a computer game, unless it is green monetary layout blood, some sweat and tears though. Nothing like losing a file(s), having a HD crash, hunting for a little bug, etc. Maybe a bit of a melodramatic phrase to use??

Chris






You just don't know when to quit, do you?



Drex -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 9:07:23 PM)

BTW, since we have bios on the generals, do we get something on the Legendary Units? I see their names but they don't mean anything to me and I don't always have the time to look them up or where to look them up.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 9:39:35 PM)

Drex

pick the unit and then click on the name of the unit as if you were going to change the name (LUs can not be changed)

and the info screen will come up and show you the LU's info

[image]local://upfiles/1438/473530A2F8A344DB9B2B33BD104EB271.jpg[/image]



Drex -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 9:52:33 PM)

Duh! Great. It probably would have taken me some weeks before I noticed this. Thanks Sarge.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 9:59:18 PM)

:)

there is more in the game then most people know, it is just finding all the little tricks, I am sure most of it is in the rules, but they get overlooked when you are looking for something else





Mike13z50 -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 10:25:37 PM)

Washington Artillery, CSA Napoleons

http://www.civilwarhome.com/eshlemangettysburgor.htm


Reports of Maj. B. F. Eshleman, Washington Artillery.
JUNE 3-AUGUST 1, 1863.--The Gettysburg Campaign.
O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME XXVII/2 [S# 44]

AUGUST 11, 1863.

Col. J. B. WALTON,
Chief of Artillery, First Corps.

COLONEL: I have the honor to transmit the following report of the operations of the Washington Artillery Battalion under my command at the battle of Gettysburg, Pa., July 3:

....I placed my battalion, consisting of eight Napoleon guns and two 12-pounder howitzers,

Edit: According to "The Long Arm of Lee", by by Jennings Cropper Wise, the Wasington Artillery Bn had 6 pounders at Manassas, re-equipped to Napoleons by Gettysburg



Drex -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 10:41:07 PM)

Reading the manual once is not enough. there is just too much info to digest at one time. thanks for the tidbit Mike.



Gil R. -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/23/2007 10:51:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

By the By, remember on the LUs or Elites units, it was never about what weapons they had, it was what the men had, in a perfect world, you would want to be sure to give your best men the best weapons and place them into the best places for combat, but wars are not perfect and lots of the LU's became that way, while proving themselfs

by standing there ground, when all else ran, by chargeing when the smart thing to do was to stand, to fight on and die, when the smart thing would of been to run and hide

Weapons didn't make the LUs, the men did and there Guts and there Honor and what they gave up

(we got a change in, to be sure that the LU's get a morale bump when they come in, so they are better able to show that trait)



I don't disagree. I just want to be historically accurate in the cases of famous units that were armed with particular weapons. If some famous cavalry brigade had Musketoons, I want to make sure they had Musketoons in the game.



tiredoftryingnames -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/24/2007 1:40:36 AM)

"I like the game mechanic where you can get captured weapons from winning a battle and routing and surrendering enemy troops. Very nice and historical."

I like the idea but I wish after a battle there was a prompt from each unit that could pick up a weapon to ask for permission to swap out with the screen showing the stats of their current weapon and the one they could get. Yeah they get better weapons, but sometimes you don't want the added upkeep cost. I always seem to have units with Minis pick up some european dropped weapon with high upkeep costs and i have to get the Mini again for them.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/24/2007 3:37:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

By the By, remember on the LUs or Elites units, it was never about what weapons they had, it was what the men had, in a perfect world, you would want to be sure to give your best men the best weapons and place them into the best places for combat, but wars are not perfect and lots of the LU's became that way, while proving themselfs

by standing there ground, when all else ran, by chargeing when the smart thing to do was to stand, to fight on and die, when the smart thing would of been to run and hide

Weapons didn't make the LUs, the men did and there Guts and there Honor and what they gave up

(we got a change in, to be sure that the LU's get a morale bump when they come in, so they are better able to show that trait)



I don't disagree. I just want to be historically accurate in the cases of famous units that were armed with particular weapons. If some famous cavalry brigade had Musketoons, I want to make sure they had Musketoons in the game.


I agree, but as has been pointed out, not all companies with in a Div were armmed the same, so at times it is still a guesswork



christof139 -> RE: Legendary Units' Weapons, etc. (2/24/2007 10:10:43 AM)

quote:

A good 'unofficial' list of how units were armed is to look at the old Battleground/Talonsoft ACW games and of course the newer HPS ACW titles. The type of weapon a unit was armed with is very important in these games so I would hazard a guess that this area was researched fairly well.

Unfortunately the types are broken down into basic types eg musket/rifle/shotgun/mixed etc and not by actual make.

Information is contained in an exportable oob text file so you don't have to open up the game scenarios to check, although I had a quick look at Picketts Charge to see if any US units still had muskets by 1863....didn't see any.


TalonSoft equipped the units randomly with small arms, and the games only sometimes have accurately equipped Infantry units. Many units that had SBs have RMs in those games, but overall they are OK because they generally use an overall percentage of weapon types and a random assignment of those weaposn that is permanently imbeded in the OOB. In Chickamauga, Wilder's Lightning Brigade is properly equipped if I remember right. The Arty. is also off in most instances. Easy to fix though, just time consuming. I modded Antietam down to the section and even individaul guns in the CSA and USA Arty. per some good books such as Artillery Hell, and the game was so much more fun to ply, only I didn't save some of my work and my Hard drive crashed, but I still have some left. I believe I might also have some stuff saved for Murfreesboro.

The OOBs are easy to alter in many ways including weapon types, and new weapons can be easily created in the PDT (maybe PDF file, I forget offhand).

You may already be familiar with all this, and are aware of the ACW Cartographer's Office and ACW gaming Club and the NIR (Napoleon in Russia project) led by JM Barbier in France. Lots of helpful info. at these sites for modding, and John Tiller of HPS still has helpful info. and file downloads for the TalonSoft games. Lots of people have done greatmods with the TS battleground games, including the Napoleonics, and I have about 20 Nappy War disks from NIR, including Wavre during the 1815 waterloo Campaign. Fantastic and very accurate maps, unit icons (including Sappers) with correct uniforms, correct OOBs as far as is historically possible, etc.

I like the BMP unit panel icon files in the game, and they are easily moddableincluding adding new units, takes some time though. Plus, the unit sprites that appear on the game screen battlefield are also moddable.

The Sabine Pass scenario at NIR is by me, and I made all the ship icons and stats, and the CSA can have Gunboats in the TalonSoft games. I was the first and only person to do that as far as I know. You have to arm the Gunboats generically because of the greatly varied mix onf weapons that were usually carried on the ships. The sprites for both the USA and CSA are only one type, and I have thought about trying to add some different sprites to the sprite sheet, but this will require some work and testing, and I don't know if it would work, but someone much more knowledgeable than me in the past also considered it and said it just might work. I do have this stuff saved on disk, the Unit.bmp files with Gunboats and Ships, and quite a few people have used my work, it's free.

I had evey class of Gunboat and Ironclad represented, plus sailing ships and Sloops of War etc.

Chris



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