RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (Full Version)

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Shaun Wallace -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 12:00:05 AM)

quote:

OK so it's not 100% it's 99%? Sorry, 97%? 95%? Come on, this game is a copy paste of 8 year old product with some mods added (mostly stuff that could be changed via editing of TXT files, and/or that was freely available on the net).


Hmm, an extensive knowledge of the CC engine and modding there ;) All those custom tools, graphics, sprite tools, total conversion mods, all done with data and editing txt files. Those modders are even more talented than I thought!

Sulla



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 1:01:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shaun Wallace
This is true of anything, however if you have been following the threads you will know that Simtek has done extensive work for the military based on the CC engine, this includes CC:RAF/CC:M5/CC:MAT and CC:JTAC. Much of this includes work that is way beyond any changes seen in any version to version before.


Selling stuff to military is all about knowing right people at the right places [:D] Besides, they have specific needs, that might well be served by 8 year old game + some mods (hey I don't know, nor do I care). We've seen none of that anyway, so...?

I don't see how this relates to anything said here or for the world of commercial games in general? I mean, more power to you, but if your USMC job was so good, you could have put more stuff into CoI, no? How about new, truely multi-level zoomable interface, not this prehistoric + and - pixelated stuff we have now? How about new sounds and voices? New animations? New theatre? New armies? New units? (I mean besides the ones modded in 6 years ago)? How about anything else that would make this game not look like it's been pulled from the cellar after 8 years and some dust blown off?

I'd be completely honest. Here's what I think will happen with CC6, based on experience:

a) It will *never* be finished and released (and some will put the blame on us, for not buying enough copies to fund the developemnt) or
b) It will be released mid-2008. priced 40-50$ and will be SO similar to CoI (or CC5 or CC2) most people will not be able to tell the difference, while you + couple usual suspects will shake their heads in disbelief at people failing to see "how much work" went into it.

That's what I think will happen, no need to publicly disagree with me (I know you do [:D])

Give us cynical sceptics something (like demo, screenshots...) to make us believe, and that would be the best argument you can make. [8D]



Shaun Wallace -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 2:31:50 AM)

Oleg, Oleg, Oleg ......................... oh boy ......................

quote:

Selling stuff to military is all about knowing right people at the right places Besides, they have specific needs, that might well be served by 8 year old game + some mods (hey I don't know, nor do I care). We've seen none of that anyway, so...?


Your knowledge of this is based on what? You honestly think that? You seem to know a lot, have you read the pieces by the various USMC schools on using CCM and cognitive training, memory based choices etc etc.... The range of the USMC is VBS2 (just released as Armed Assault) thru to Tacops, with CCM somehwere in bewteen.

quote:

I don't see how this relates to anything said here or for the world of commercial games in general? I mean, more power to you, but if your USMC job was so good, you could have put more stuff into CoI, no? How about new, truely multi-level zoomable interface, not this prehistoric + and - pixelated stuff we have now? How about new sounds and voices? New animations? New theatre? New armies? New units? (I mean besides the ones modded in 6 years ago)? How about anything else that would make this game not look like it's been pulled from the cellar after 8 years and some dust blown off?


You fail to answer any questions I see. If its such a useless game why is it still being played and modded? Why are new maps and mod still being created for such a has been game? We are not modding the game we have the source code and are doing major things with it. Maybe you should blow some of that dust off your specs... Did we or anyone else EVER say CoI was anything but a tweaked re-release? Can you read or do you simply want to argue? I can see now why you have 4000+ posts, [&o] [>:]

quote:

I'd be completely honest. Here's what I think will happen with CC6, based on experience:


So thats what you think will happen? On what is that thought based? What logic did you use and what knowledge of Simtek did you use to come to this amazingly insightful view? What experrince would that be?

a) It will *never* be finished and released (and some will put the blame on us, for not buying enough copies to fund the developemnt) or
b) It will be released mid-2008. priced 40-50$ and will be SO similar to CoI (or CC5 or CC2) most people will not be able to tell the difference, while you + couple usual suspects will shake their heads in disbelief at people failing to see "how much work" went into it.

Then you know very little about Simtek and very little about what has already been done. You make assertions and comments based on zero knowledge and wish to somehow denigrate anyone for enjoying what is a great game. Just because a game is old you assume its bad?

That's what I think will happen, no need to publicly disagree with me (I know you do ) I actually think very little thought went into thinking this post at all ;)

Give us cynical sceptics something (like demo, screenshots...) to make us believe, and that would be the best argument you can make.

There will be screenshots and much info, although no demo. Whatever huge chnages there are and will be, I am sure you will still be looking through those same black tinted dust covered specs ;)

Sulla



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 4:21:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shaun Wallace
quote:

I don't see how this relates to anything said here or for the world of commercial games in general? I mean, more power to you, but if your USMC job was so good, you could have put more stuff into CoI, no? How about new, truely multi-level zoomable interface, not this prehistoric + and - pixelated stuff we have now? How about new sounds and voices? New animations? New theatre? New armies? New units? (I mean besides the ones modded in 6 years ago)? How about anything else that would make this game not look like it's been pulled from the cellar after 8 years and some dust blown off?


You fail to answer any questions I see. If its such a useless game why is it still being played and modded? Why are new maps and mod still being created for such a has been game?


You quote a paragraph with dozens of my questions, without answering them, and then accuse *me* of failing to answer questions? LOL [:D]

Nevermind mate - I am OK if you can pwn me with the finished product, not empty flaming on the board [;)] but I still think it'll be a) or b).

BTW I never said CC is a "useless game" - far from it. It's just old and in need of *serious* updating. I am sad to see you people got hold of CC license, and then - did pretty much nothing about it, so far. OK, nothing for public at large, fans and gamers (as opposed to military customers who, if your word is to be believed, got the premium product, for which Joe Gamer couldn't care less anyway).

There is more "logic" and "experience" behind my posts here than you think, lets just say I don't feel like being too flame-y, so I'll leave it at that. [8D]



LitFuel -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 5:45:08 AM)

Obviously your bitter about something, and frankly I don't care, just don't buy CC then and move on to something you like better(you know, something new)...I will say this though, it's ignorant to judge something by it's age. I haven't read anything you wrote yet that is logical or shows any experience. I'm still trying to figure out why you even bothered posting, you obviously have no love for the CC series. [8|]



Randall Grubb -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 7:15:14 AM)

Hey, Oleg, it is obvious that you can read, but it is quite apparent that you can't understand what you read, or you could finally understand that CoI is a re-release, not a new game.

I've bookmarked this thread and your posts and I will make you publicly eat your words when CC6 is published.

Can you make a third side in the game to be neutral civilian?  I can.

Can you make a team appear to the enemy as neutral civilians until it decides to fire?  I can.

Can you have up to 10 players in the game?  I can.

Can you make multiple air strikes and artillery barrages available?  I can.

Can you mount and dismount a vehicle?  I can.

Can you have a team mount a boat, cross a deep river and dismount?  I can.

Can you edit a team in the Battle Group or Requisition screens to change the number of soldiers, their weapons, their armor, their moral?  I can.

Can you make battles that end when pre-defined triggers, such as X number of wounded, killing or wounding one particular soldier in one specific team, or gaining and holding one particular spot on the map for a specified time set for that specifc battle?  I can.

Can you make a battle that does not have Victory Locations, but winning or losing is determined by the triggers designed for that battle?  I can.

Can you add emplacements, obstacles and mines to a map as either fixed or player controlled, placed or detonated? I can.

There is a great lot about the Close Combat series re-releases that you appear to have a great knowledge of and yet a very little understanding of.  Your insights to CC6 are not just laughable, they are the statements of a fool.



Marc von Martial -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 11:02:17 AM)

Oleg probably had a bad week again down there in the Wild West of Europe [;)]. It happens once in a while.

quote:

Selling stuff to military is all about knowing right people at the right places Besides, they have specific needs, that might well be served by 8 year old game + some mods (hey I don't know, nor do I care). We've seen none of that anyway, so...?


Don't assume things run like in Coratia everywhere.

With your posts here you lost a lot of credit as a "reviewer" for me man. Since they clearly show you do not want to understand.



Monkeys Brain -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 11:42:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

Oleg probably had a bad week again down there in the Wild West of Europe [;)]. It happens once in a while.

quote:

Selling stuff to military is all about knowing right people at the right places Besides, they have specific needs, that might well be served by 8 year old game + some mods (hey I don't know, nor do I care). We've seen none of that anyway, so...?


Don't assume things run like in Coratia everywhere.

With your posts here you lost a lot of credit as a "reviewer" for me man. Since they clearly show you do not want to understand.



Don't worry Oleg here comes the cavarly [sm=fighting0083.gif]
(didn't find smiley - man on a horse... hehe this one will do it)...

Hmmm, half seriously I am not bothered so much with ancient look of CC: HoI but I must say one thing about the price.

Battlefront.com, Matrix Games, Shrapnel Games and all other wargame publisher are obviously dishonest to their customers.
The public, gamers who buy the games from them don't know how many copies is sold on any game. As far as I can tell Matrix can sold 30000 copies of CoI but still weep like crocodile here on this very forum. Now don't get me wrong - I just say that I don't like this. I know that like on Paradox forum now will come 10 fans and say something to defend Matrix. Hey nobody is attacking Matrix, comprende? I said all wargaming companies, ALL, not just Matrix.

Why is such a big secret to hide number of sold copies for wargames? Matrix although not big as EA or Activision is also privately held company but ok not listed on NASDAQ or something.
As most games are sold online through website even magazines cannot come to possesion of number of sold games as NPD (?) agency is selling only data collected from retail (???). OK maybe I am wrong here but don't know.

Why I am asking this? Because I find this lousy and dishonest toward us, paying customers. We know how well is doing any EA title but we don't know how well wargames are doing.

There is one nice story about Russian tank experts going into frendly visit to Nazi Germany in 1940. They were friends then. And Germans showed them their heaviest tank Panzer IVD and Russians kept saying "Is that really your heaviest tank?"... Germans conluded that Russians have heavier tanks because they were so suspicious that PZIVD is heaviest German tank. And they did (T-34, KV-1, KV-2)...

So as Matrix, Battlefront etc... don't give us number of sold game then I conclude that they in fact sell bigger quantities than it is believed in wargaming circles. US Army is also making big orders I am sure.

I think that they shoud publish data on sold games...

Now what is ther reason for not publishing data on sold games? Well I guess one of the is to prepare you games with pterodactile or Kenosoik graphics and wrap it in 40 $ price. Along with weeping how nowadays is hard to sell wargames. Voila. Wargames are simpathetic and willing to help and will bite into this.
Or maybe there is some other reason, like CIA, or UFO Aliens are demanding this from them, or there would be watergate affair if they publish this, or... hehe?

Why we wargamers cannot know this info and average Joe Gamer can know how many NFS Carbon is sold copies? Now if fanboys could just for a moment take a red flag out of their nose and think logically. I am all for support of wargaming hobby but also would like that treatment of wargaming companies toward their customers is better. This is one of the things because I am not talking here about good customer service for christ sake. I am talking about honest approach toward customer.

Until we don't know data on sold games we can guess. So my guess is 30000 worldwide (yes, I will exaggerate a little bit). 30000 x 40 $ that is 1200000 $. Even better than many games done with hard development of 30 people dor 2 or three years.

Before someone tell me that I am nuts for giving 30000 as a number that is realistic number that can be reached with a good product and in this case good priciung policy (not 40 $, that is ridicolously big number of lost sales because many people will pass on this buy). - and Shrapnel sold Dominions 2 at 50000 so that number can be reached it's not so SF. I would like that wargamers get out of their sleep and don't be lamb for a slaughter just like that.



Mario




Monkeys Brain -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 12:14:50 PM)

One more thing... Just playing a game called Medieval 2: Total War.... with Turks (yikees Mongols attacked me uhmmm,...) and THAT IS A QUALITY GAME.
With a price of 40$.... And look at credits how many people worked on this game from Creative Assembly!

Now I know you will tell me that waregames are niche bla bla, don't sell so much bla bla.

Again I tell you that wargames sell I think good enough (I guess) because WORKLOAD is so small and teams are smaller so cost to produce a wargame is way TOO smaller than to produce a title called Medieval 2. According to this logic wargames to compete with todays trends should cut prices and try TO EXPAND a base of customers not like original poster said try to make 2000 people on this forum buy 20 games they release in a year. This will not work just like that.

And I think that I will pass on CoI. Medieval 2 gives you feeling that you paid for what you getting. And as I said when it comes to working hours during development I bet that Medieval 2 beat CoI in that regard. Many wargamers will think like that and instead of CoI would buy (insert a name of some popular game here).





Shaun Wallace -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 12:32:40 PM)

MB,

I play MT2 and enjoy it an awful lot, but to compare a BAFTA award winning million selling game, like MT2 a wargame is kind of a stretch. I know the guys at Creative Assembly, met them at several E3's and been invited down to their studio. They do not consider it a wargame.

Why do you think, companies like Sega and Activision back it? You are comparing this with World at War or Close Combat, TOAW?

Ask yourself why companies like UBI/MS/EA etc etc dropped SSI, Atomic, Talonsoft, etc etc and all their wargames titles? Was this because they were so stupendously popular and making such huge amounts of money for them? Do you think wargmes dev teams asked for more than any other dev team (OMG .... ask many of the dev teams here?) The reality is that wargames don't sell in huge quantaties, simple as that.

I used to go into my local EB/Game and there would be walls of PC games in their shiny boxes and a raft of wargames titles, try that now, you are lucky to see a single shelf of PC games and what is actually there is FPS, online based or some mega title.

Explain to me how wargames are to survive if not as they are? Do you want them to vanish altogether? Its the passion of the developers and publishers that keep them going and rolling out now, it sure aint the money!

Sulla



Monkeys Brain -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 12:47:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shaun Wallace

MB,

I play MT2 and enjoy it an awful lot, but to compare a BAFTA award winning million selling game, like MT2 a wargame is kind of a stretch. I know the guys at Creative Assembly, met them at several E3's and been invited down to their studio. They do not consider it a wargame.

Why do you think, companies like Sega and Activision back it? You are comparing this with World at War or Close Combat, TOAW?

Ask yourself why companies like UBI/MS/EA etc etc dropped SSI, Atomic, Talonsoft, etc etc and all their wargames titles? Was this because they were so stupendously popular and making such huge amounts of money for them? Do you think wargmes dev teams asked for more than any other dev team (OMG .... ask many of the dev teams here?) The reality is that wargames don't sell in huge quantaties, simple as that.

I used to go into my local EB/Game and there would be walls of PC games in their shiny boxes and a raft of wargames titles, try that now, you are lucky to see a single shelf of PC games and what is actually there is FPS, online based or some mega title.

Explain to me how wargames are to survive if not as they are? Do you want them to vanish altogether? Its the passion of the developers and publishers that keep them going and rolling out now, it sure aint the money!

Sulla



Shaun,

I know also personally guys from Creative Assembly. I met them also at E3. I was game journalist for many years. I think James something was the name of this guy, he worked at Interplay UK before that. It was long time ago anyway to remember everything.

EDIT: Was it James Stapleton? Urgh... my memory is getting old...

You are too harsh. I for one certanly don't want wargames to vanish that is way too harsh. If anyone wants good to this hobby that is me. But I can ask questions and that is my right to ask question even if I see that somebody don't want to answer them (for any reasons that I am not aware of).

I know what you are talking. But I am not quite sure that you listen to the gamers, the fans and the customers. And you are man also one of them.

I didn't compared graphics of Medieval 2 (that game rocks, BTW, and one of the few strategy title that have QUALITY written all over, that is a proud of UK game development as you are from UK, small digression). I also didn't compared it of market share and I know why SEGA is backing it.

I compared the pocket money in the pocket of every wargamer. I told you that I WOULD RATHER take my hand in my pocket and buy Creative Assemblys Medieval 2 then Simtek's CoI.
It is that simple when you want to look into it at raw side.


Mario



toastfrenzy -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 2:23:35 PM)

After having played CCIII, IV & V for a few years, I choose not to buy this game for the following 2 reasons;

I posted a question in this forum about a is there a demo available? and received no response +ve or -ve what so ever.

Thread here

So after 2 weeks from posting I thought what the hell it's only £20, went on and selected CCIII:CoI ordered and as I went to confirm payent the total became £24.....The quoted £20 didn't include (vat\local tax), so I gave this up as a bad job. Not going to buy anything if VAT or TAX isn't included or a excluding VAT sign is given. Think the general way in the UK is VAT is included in the price unless it's clearly stated excluding VAT.


So will anybody reply to this, I wonder?



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 2:23:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

With your posts here you lost a lot of credit as a "reviewer" for me man. Since they clearly show you do not want to understand.



Yea I was prepared to risk my credit, I am just that awesome [:D]

We'll see.....

Monkey Brain, as usual, even if you happen to agree with me - I don't need your help, it usually ends up bad with me having to apologize in your name LOL [;)] [:D]



Monkeys Brain -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 2:49:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

With your posts here you lost a lot of credit as a "reviewer" for me man. Since they clearly show you do not want to understand.



Yea I was prepared to risk my credit, I am just that awesome [:D]

We'll see.....

Monkey Brain, as usual, even if you happen to agree with me - I don't need your help, it usually ends up bad with me having to apologize in your name LOL [;)] [:D]




LOL

But this time my post was right on target, nothing rude or offensive I just asked a clear questions and stated my opinion and in the end they will see that I was right. Every wargamer have pocket money for buying games. If you too have bought 10 wargames your wife would object I am sure. So selling a game with pterodactile graphics in 2007. for 40$ is a no go. Todays world is not based on cheap sentiments.

But I guess that Mongols in MTW2 are waiting for me. I think that I will have to start a new game. You must prepare for Mongols right from the start. I beat Byzant and Egypt and now Mongols arrived and captured one of my fortress... Ah, if I had just put on fire that ramming device they would not enter so easily then... and my army was lousy in that town. Awesome game, it have some flaws like slow movement of AI but still awesome game. Creative have managed to make a mainstream game but still extremely enjoyable mainstream game and that's why they will earn loads of money. Oooops sorry this is not forum for Medieval 2: Total War.
Best money spent in long time...



Mario



Monkeys Brain -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 3:01:16 PM)


quote:



Yea I was prepared to risk my credit, I am just that awesome [:D]



Well, what you said is old thing. You forgot how world is moving fast now and that many appreciated what guys that developed CoI have done. Myself included.
Well, world today is fast and many people will answer the call of the company telling them that they will chew the hamburger for them so that they don't have to chew it themselves LOL LOL
Americans especially (nothing too wrong there) love to have automatic garage doors, automatic that or this. In that regard enhancements in CoI are OK.
Even graphics is not that big problem for a remake but you naively
doesn't see how that incorporates into price of 40$?

How this game will show in a box match with mamooth called MTW 2 is clearly evident, MTW 2 will wip the floor with CoI. I have talked with some people that were haveing the same problem with TOAW 3, they just didn't wanted to give 40$ and said to me that if publisher have put a smaller price they would buy it.

So clear message here is that market is unforgiving, if you want to publish a remake of older games go ahead I will applaude that move. I myself would love to see remake of Panzer General 2 maybe just in higher resolution and clearly to stay 2D. But putting a price tag of 40$ on game with such a how to say graphics from the Homer or Neron times is ridiculous. Illogical and ridiculous. And as we see this will only alienate some wargamers.

Imagine this so that I am not labeled as anti Matrix, quite contrary.

Have they droped the price to 30$ which is in fact a little bit over the top but still OK price I will gladly pay it. But not 40$. And it's not about money but about principles.
Have they adopted some reasoneble elastic price schemes they would get bigger revenues. Just look at this hyperproduction of games! How in the earth they expect that every game will make it? Matrix games as well compete against each other on top of that. And customers love companies that show some considerations. That way if remake was 30$ then customer is also more willing to part with 50$ for a new game like COTA for example. That way you are driving the sales of new titles as well and don't get labeled as expensive in "word of mouth" advertising.



Mario





Monkeys Brain -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 3:15:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: toastfrenzy

After having played CCIII, IV & V for a few years, I choose not to buy this game for the following 2 reasons;

I posted a question in this forum about a is there a demo available? and received no response +ve or -ve what so ever.

Thread here

So after 2 weeks from posting I thought what the hell it's only £20, went on and selected CCIII:CoI ordered and as I went to confirm payent the total became £24.....The quoted £20 didn't include (vat\local tax), so I gave this up as a bad job. Not going to buy anything if VAT or TAX isn't included or a excluding VAT sign is given. Think the general way in the UK is VAT is included in the price unless it's clearly stated excluding VAT.


So will anybody reply to this, I wonder?




Marc will answer to you about VAT(as I don't know their practice) but I understand your decision,


Mario



Marc von Martial -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 3:45:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: toastfrenzy
.....The quoted £20 didn't include (vat\local tax), so I gave this up as a bad job. Not going to buy anything if VAT or TAX isn't included or a excluding VAT sign is given. Think the general way in the UK is VAT is included in the price unless it's clearly stated excluding VAT.


VAT is not included cause Matrix Games is an US business. Legally you buy from the US, even though the actual product is shipped to your from a UK warehouse (if you order form the EU shop). Even if we wanted we can not give a price with VAT included since VAT is different in many European states and on top of that , this is simply how Digital River handles this stuff.

When you enter the shop there is a pop up window that will clearly inform you that VAT is excluded.

quote:

From shop:

Important Notice!
Please note that all prices listed in the United Kingdom and Euro stores DO NOT include any VAT charges that may apply. At the time of purchase, the exact VAT will be applied based on the customer's ship-to country.
-Matrix Games




Monkeys Brain -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 3:58:31 PM)

We in bandit kingdom of Croatia doesn't pay anything when we import games ,,,,, until woman with a beard in a custom post office catch your shipment and then you pay 22 % PDV (that is CreoNeanderthal VAT), and then on top of that you pay some expense and that all can go to be around 30% of actual value of the game. Dang criminals!

And cherry on the top they say to you that custom is excluded from software (which is games) so custom charge is 0% but that doesn't give me any concilation as they skin me alive with this PDV etc...

edit:
And PDV (VAT) is calculated including postage plus value of the game. So they calculate 22% from 60 $ for example, not just 50.
Dang communist and nationalist scum of the earth. Fortunately I was long time not on a custom, I had a bit of luck, but would like to go with a flamethrower there one day.




toastfrenzy -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 7:06:04 PM)

Thx for the speedy replies, I’ll endeavour to read all the presented information next time.
I'm focusing on B'front's ToW now as an April release has been mentioned, but will be sure to check out CC6....

Any comment on my first point for not buying CCIII:CoI?



Hertston -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 8:22:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: toastfrenzy

Any comment on my first point for not buying CCIII:CoI?


As to the demo, no. Matrix usually aren't big on demos anyway, but I suspect in the case CC: CoI the the time, money and effort to do one just wouldn't be justified in terms of sales. Unlike a 'new' release the great majority of the potential market knows exactly what they are getting, anyway; even if they have never played CC (and most probably have) the game has semi-legendary status.

I agree on the VAT point, actually, and have bitched about it before, although I've got used to it. There just is nothing Matrix can do on that, although Digital River certainly could as most other online retailers seem to have no trouble in including a VAT inclusive price when that price is given in UKP. You can't do it up front with Euro sales as the rate is variable between countries and the tax can't be calculated until you've given address details.





Monkeys Brain -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 8:26:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: toastfrenzy

Thx for the speedy replies, I’ll endeavour to read all the presented information next time.
I'm focusing on B'front's ToW now as an April release has been mentioned, but will be sure to check out CC6....

Any comment on my first point for not buying CCIII:CoI?


Maybe they don't want to do demo or don't have resources, or time?

As I understand it is basically same old CCIII with some minor enhancements, better dealings with mods and better supported multiplayer...Thas is ok, for a 29.95$ [:'(]

I will also be getting ToW... first day in the dawn lol

As I am here may I suggest to you and to our American friends

http://rignroll.com/index.php?type=new_id&publ_id=462

Rig'n'Roll. Release spring 2007. It's a truck driving simulation and all California is there in the game using special Virtual Reality technique. The game will be AWESOME!
There is a movie 20 MB on this link, see it for yourself.

Maybe even your house in San Francisco is there lol



Hertston -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 9:07:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain

I will also be getting ToW... first day in the dawn lol



I'll wait for some reviews, or even a demo, but I must admit this (from an enthusiatic preview quoted at BF) was a tad off-putting;

quote:

ToW really is a case of a solid generic RTS game built around many small and very well balanced tweaks and features that seamlessly work together


Whatever else you may say about CC, one thing it isn't is a "generic RTS game"! I don't share Ravinhood's total aversion to such things but it will need quite some "well balanced tweaks and features" to breath life into what is a desperately tired and unoriginal genre. I'm also a little nervous about the publisher. Nothing against BF at all as a wargames publisher and will happily buy Les Grognards and CMC (if they ever finish it), and would have bought CM:SF if it wasn't for the awful US beats up on Syria scenario. But 'generic WW2 RTS' IS a mass marketable product of interest to the big boys if its any good; look at Company of Heroes. So how did it end up at BF?



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/9/2007 9:54:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston
ToW really is a case of a solid generic RTS game built around many small and very well balanced tweaks and features that seamlessly work together


I am highly suspicious about any game that takes aeons to find a publisher outside it's home country (and is pretty much in development for aeons itself), like TOW.

Also, as GIC/EYSA showed, ambitious 3D pseudo-realtime designs still have a long way to go.

Having said that I do expect TOW to be miles above generic WW2-flavored garbage like CoH, although in itself it does not say much [:D]



GoodGuy -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/10/2007 3:11:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shaun Wallace

..........USMC schools on using CCM and cognitive training, memory based choices etc etc.... The range of the USMC is VBS2 (just released as Armed Assault) thru to Tacops, with CCM somehwere in bewteen.


Erm... just for the record: Bohemia Interactive (the company that developed Armed Assault) considers ArmAssault to be what they call a 1.5-Version of Operation Flashpoint, which means that it's basically the old OFP-engine, with the same old faulty AI, just with improved/recent graphics (textures with higher resolution, a bit more detailed buildings...doh) and a new theater, plus new vehicles/objects. That's why the game got mediocre reviews in most game mags (I think around 70-75%, way less in some mags).

Besides Bohemia argueing with Codemasters about the rights regarding the brand/name OFP (that's one reason for Bohemia not naming it Operation Flashpoint 2), Bohemia figured that they were too busy with working on the VBS2 (military version of the simulation) to dedicate more time for the development of a real OFP 2.0, so they "just" overhauled the OFP-engine, in order to keep the die-hard fans of the game interested and to avoid that OFP will be forgotten.
Afaik, the first version of the military version (VBS) required massive computing power, and was not like a sim you could run on a small workstation, since it featured lots of updates and adjustable environments, where u could recreate combat situations including civilians, riots, raids, a huge range of vehicles, etc.
So, you shouldn't confuse VBS2 with Armed Assault from the same company. The basic concepts of VBS2 might go back to OFP 1.0, but VBS2 evolved into a fully fledged military sim, with lotsa goodies, these days.

Back to topic: I used to be a big fan of the CC series. I even kept playing it although the command interface was cumbersome: it wasn't a contemporary interface anymore at the time the game had been released, when compared to interfaces of RTS that were on the market since 1995. Given, the series featured a realism (in real time) that was unmatched back then, which surely displayed a detail that kept players hooked, I guess, including me. I used to play the unmodded games only, though.

I see where Oleg's coming from, though, and I have to admit that I share some concerns there, although I wouldn't express them that harsh. I believe you if you say that there'll be a new game, and I hope you've got the ressources to make it happen....

Question is, though, will it be like a "1.5" game, or like a "2.0" one (all new engine, brandnew AI, new theater, etc.)?
Imho, CoI is like 1.3 or 1.4-ish.
If there'd be something like 2.0, I'd buy it, definetly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Having said that I do expect TOW to be miles above generic WW2-flavored garbage like CoH, ....


Technically, CoH is a milestone, regarding technical innovation and presentation. Also, the devs don't claim that the game features uber-realism or anything, afaik. It's a game designed to attract the masses.



KG Erwin -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/10/2007 3:39:56 AM)

It's commendable that the mods continue to respond, but I've played the game (using the Real Infantry Mod), and I think it's worth the money.

Maybe some of the whiners would be better served by actually playing the game, rather than taking up valuable time from the moderators, who could be working on the next game. (Ahem)




Shaun Wallace -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/10/2007 3:45:41 AM)

Hia GG,

quote:

Erm... just for the record: Bohemia Interactive (the company that developed Armed Assault) considers ArmAssault to be what they call a 1.5-Version of Operation Flashpoint, which means that it's basically the old OFP-engine, with the same old faulty AI, just with improved/recent graphics (textures with higher resolution, a bit more detailed buildings...doh) and a new theater, plus new vehicles/objects. That's why the game got mediocre reviews in most game mags (I think around 70-75%, way less in some mags).


I know BIA well and flew to London last year to meet up with Pete from BIA. Simtek is involved in VBS2, so I know where you are coming from on the engine. While its not a brand new engine, its an engine thats been developed and tweaked for 16 years now and both BIA in Aus (doing the mil version) and the Czech guys working on V2 of the engine are building great products. OPF and VBS are both similiar to CC in that they do not fit into any standard game slot, RTS/FPS etc.

quote:

Besides Bohemia argueing with Codemasters about the rights regarding the brand/name OFP (that's one reason for Bohemia not naming it Operation Flashpoint 2), Bohemia figured that they were too busy with working on the VBS2 (military version of the simulation) to dedicate more time for the development of a real OFP 2.0, so they "just" overhauled the OFP-engine, in order to keep the die-hard fans of the game interested and to avoid that OFP will be forgotten.
Afaik, the first version of the military version (VBS) required massive computing power, and was not like a sim you could run on a small workstation, since it featured lots of updates and adjustable environments, where u could recreate combat situations including civilians, riots, raids, a huge range of vehicles, etc.
So, you shouldn't confuse VBS2 with Armed Assault from the same company. The basic concepts of VBS2 might go back to OFP 1.0, but VBS2 evolved into a fully fledged military sim, with lotsa goodies, these days.


BIS was very quick to see the potential that was out there ny making use of the modding community, this enabled really the first milittary use of the sim. VBS2 is a major jump from VBS1 in many areas. It is def the big brother of ArmA.

quote:

Back to topic: I used to be a big fan of the CC series. I even kept playing it although the command interface was cumbersome: it wasn't a contemporary interface anymore at the time the game had been released, when compared to interfaces of RTS that were on the market since 1995. Given, the series featured a realism (in real time) that was unmatched back then, which surely displayed a detail that kept players hooked, I guess, including me. I used to play the unmodded games only, though.


CC with the many hundreds of mods is still played after what 7 or 8 years? That says an awful lot about the state of current RTS games. I used to run Wargamer and have seen ALOT of RTS games. CC is not an RTS and never was. What we aim to do is move what is good already in the game and take it forward. A huge amount of this is already done, Snr Drill listed many new features, there will be more.

quote:

I see where Oleg's coming from, though, and I have to admit that I share some concerns there, although I wouldn't express them that harsh. I believe you if you say that there'll be a new game, and I hope you've got the ressources to make it happen....

Question is, though, will it be like an "OFP 1.5" game, or like an "OFP 2.0" (all new engine, brandnew AI, new theater, etc.)? Imho, CoI is like 1.3 or 1.5-ish. If there'd be something like 2.0, I'd buy it, definetly.


CoI is a re-release, yes its got additions and yes the code has been changed in places, but it was never intended to be anything but a re-release. CC6 will NOT be a re-release but a new product with many new features. I think that many here will be VERY shocked at how CC6 and what we have done with CC ;)

Sulla




Shaun Wallace -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/10/2007 3:47:18 AM)

quote:

It's commendable that the mods continue to respond, but I've played the game (using the Real Infantry Mod), and I think it's worth the money.

Maybe some of the whiners would be better served by actually playing the game, rather than taking up valuable time from the moderators, who could be working on the next game. (Ahem)


LOL, We will try and be less diligent in the future ;)

Sulla



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/10/2007 3:53:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shaun Wallace
CoI is a re-release, yes its got additions and yes the code has been changed in places, but it was never intended to be anything but a re-release. CC6 will NOT be a re-release but a new product with many new features. I think that many here will be VERY shocked at how CC6 and what we have done with CC ;)


Any dates, even just rough estimates? I want to check "prepare 2 B shocked" on my calendar [:D]

No really, does CC6 have any date attached to it?



GoodGuy -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/10/2007 4:02:27 AM)

I didn't consider CC to be a RTS. I compared the ease (or the lack) of use of the interface of CC to interfaces of RTS-games that flooded the market since 1995.

Armed Assault isn't even a little brother. Also, it's a sore attempt to keep the shrinking die-hard community (really small these days, mostly czech/hungarian players and a few Germans) at it, plus, it features an engine that is really really old, and not even close to being as powerful as VBS(2).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shaun Wallace

I think that many here will be VERY shocked at how CC6 and what we have done with CC ;)

Sulla


I can hold my horses....means I can be patient.... but just curious...when can we expect to be shocked (and maybe see a few screens, previews, diaries, whatever)? [:D]



old man of the sea -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/10/2007 4:15:11 AM)

well, I'll see if I can shine some light on the sales subject here. I have worked with atomic games/three sixty pacific/avalon hill/microsoft/ssi/matel/talonsoft/take two interactive/strategy first/matrix games/dynamic animation systems/merscom/rebel games/got game 

Man that's a lot of ground to cover.

Sales for most retail wargames are between 20,000 and 30,000 copies. Sales for Sid Meyers Antietem which was initially online only was 8,000. GI Combat sold around 30,000 copies. Close Combat in all its glory outdid any wargame ever. It is a good thing that they are being re-released. There are not only old hands getting updated material, (yes I see that a lot has changed from CCIII just in the screen shots of one AAR) but new people are in the mix. So, you have the teaser, and the updated re-release in the same package.

Atomic did not market Close Combat to the USMC. They came to Atomic.

What I do now is marketing to the US Army/Marine Corps/ USAF/US NAVY/law enforcement/corrections at federal/state/local/municipal level. It is not who you know, it is what you have. Knowing who the right people are helps, but having what they need is much more important. It is much harder than making games. Much much harder.

Check it out http://vice.d-a-s.com

E






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