Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945



Message

Honda -> Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/10/2007 1:51:02 AM)

I'm finishing my main thesis, subject being Reasons for Japan's entry into WW2. As one of the resons I have a chapeter "Secret societies, lobbys and conspiracies". One item in the chaper are Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha military factions. I started work from Toland's Rising Sun but after some internet research came to a disturbing revelation - either Toland or the croatian translator of the book got it very wrong. From what I found on the net, the book confuses Kodaha and Toseiha factions without even mentioning Kodoha.
What I'm trying to get at here is if anyone is knowledgable in Japan pre-war politics and military affairs to give me definitive guideline as to who's who in here.

Thanks
[sm=00000436.gif]




Vetamur -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/10/2007 5:54:15 AM)

Im not sure how they could confuse the two since they are opposites... Toseiha (which isnt what they called themselves..it was a put down name used by Kohaha) was moderate opposition to Kodaha.

If you need specifics I can probably get them for you.. I will try anyway. Its not an area of speciality of mine but I know people who will know (I assume).

Let me know.



temagic -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/10/2007 8:00:58 AM)

wikipedia got a few good articles on the factions.



Honda -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/10/2007 12:34:53 PM)

Vetamur, if it's not to much troube I could use some info in the context of those factions' influence on japanes politics and army. I don't need an in-depth look, just a glipse since it's just a part of one chapeter. The most important thing for me right now is getting them right since my sources obviously get it wrong.
Temagic, I saw those articles, but kind of a loooong strech to use wiki as a viable internet source...But, it looks like they may have to do. As I said, I don't need that much info, as much as a confimation that the info I got was correct.



Vetamur -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/10/2007 1:21:43 PM)

After re reading your first post, wanted to make a quick note. Kodo Ha and Koda Ha are the same group. One of the terms is newer.. I will have to look it up to remember which.

Kodo Ha was much more of a coherent group that focused on..well..what we imagine the IJA to be.  They focused on spirit, "Japaneseness", etc. They emphasized the role of the Emperor and sought a system where the military (read Army) could purge the country of a corrupt government and answer to the Emperor. Nazi Germany served as a strong role model for this faction, and to a lesser extent so did Fascist Italy.   The attempted coup in 1936 wasnt directly led by Kodo Ha, but clearly the junior officers who led it were influenced by Kodo Ha.

Tosei Ha tried to be "moderate" and tried to limit military action and believed the the Army should stay out of politics (with any exceptions coming throught the War Ministry).  They took advantage of the attempted coup to purge the Army of Kodo Ha and the army's political influence but they failed.

Both groups had a common history and a lot in common. Most were dominated by people who belonged to former samurai families, and both believed Japans military had to be strengthened.

In the period before the start of the war most people say that their influence had waned.. instead of factions, classmates (people in the same year in academy) became important.  Groups who had met in the military academies and universities  used connections to manipulate the political process.

I can get more detailed if you like..do you want names and decisions and positions they pushed for or..?



Honda -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/10/2007 2:09:17 PM)

Great stuff, thanks. No need to into specifics though. I found some idication that Kodaha and Toseiha were conteporaries and that Kodoha was a result of incorporation of Kodaha into Toseiha after the former had been purged?



Vetamur -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/10/2007 3:09:15 PM)

My understanding is different, but I can look it up tomorrow or Monday... I believe Kodo Ha and Koda Ha are the same thing in essence.. they underwent a name change in...1934?1933? 1932 is the origin of the original name (I cant remember which came first..sorry..).



temagic -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/10/2007 5:03:28 PM)

My thoughts on the subject were more in line with Honda's;

The Kodaha were the radical (political) element in the IJA, that sought a shogunate-style dictatorship. The Toseiha were the moderate group. The two factions united (in I believe it was 1941) to form the Kodaha (which btw was a political party), under the leadership of Hideko Tojo. This to "unite" the country in preparations for the war against the US and UK.

The unity remained until the Saipan disaster in 1944, when the Kodaha stepped doen from power, and Hideki Tojo was ousted from office.



Honda -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/10/2007 8:29:33 PM)

I see from where this is coming and I came across the same info on the net. But since there is a lot of confusion on the subjet I was hoping someone might point, with authority, in the right direction. Right now, info I got, it's only confirmation I need.



rtrapasso -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/10/2007 11:25:21 PM)

From Wiki:
"The Koda Ha (Imperial Benevolent Rule or Action Group) was an interwar Japanese faction, led by Colonel (later General) Sadao Araki with Jinsaburo Mazaki, Heisuke Yanagawa and Hideyoshi Obata. (Some sources use Kodoha, the later name of the Imperial Way Faction, already for the Kodaha. The transition is around 1934. The term Kodo apparently dates from 1932, as a coinage of Sadao Araki.)"

After the February 26 Incident (of 1936)
"Taking advantage of the insurrection to crack down upon the Koda faction, the Tosei-ha proceeded to purge the Army. They prohibited Army intervention in domestic politics, except through the agency of the Minister of War. Thereafter, cliquish factionalism began to abate; but the Tosei's purge failed completely in its basic purpose-to avert Army interference in the political scene.

After the purge, in fact, the Army entered legitimately into political organizations and thereby finally established a terrific voice in domestic politics, resulting in the unification of both opposing cliques in the form of one new movement, the Kodoha Party, which later had great influence in government. On one hand, the Army was allied with officialdom and the elder statesmen; on the other, it could deal with the worlds of industry and of politics."

So apparently Kodaha + Tosei-ha = Kodoha (if you believe Wiki).





rtrapasso -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/10/2007 11:33:12 PM)

Reading through the Wiki article on this, i also stumbled across this gem:


"In February 1942, while World War II was raging, the British government attempted to propose a peace agreement with Japan, due to their increasing fear of losing the most important of their overseas colonies: Australia, after their recent failure in defending Malaya and Singapore."

"On 16 February 1942, the British diplomats secretly proposed a peace deal with Japan. A possible agreement was that if Great Britain formally recognised the authority of imperial Japan over Northern China and Manchuria, the Japanese would give Britain sovereignty over the Malay Peninsula and Singapore."

This bit of news (if true) is rather astonishing!

Aside from the political implications of GB making "a separate peace" with Japan, it also calls into the central thesis that Japan just wanted to force the Allies to the bargaining table after securing resources and a defensible perimeter. i'm going to have to check to see how far Japan had gotten to in Feb 1942...

The article went onto say that Tojo rejected the proposal.



Honda -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/11/2007 12:53:11 AM)

Wiki may even be right, because Toland's Rising Sun has some inconsistencies regarding the two factions. He also differenciates them on basis of their view of necesity to go to war with China. Reading Toland you get the impresion Kodaha is the moderate faction.



Honda -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/11/2007 1:37:35 AM)

Oh, and...as long as i'm asking...enyone know the death toll of the Pacific War, if possible Sino-Japanese War included?



Vetamur -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/11/2007 6:11:38 AM)

Now you guys have got me interested again for real. After lunch Im heading to my office where all my books are and will dig stuff out.

Casualties for the Pacific War? Only Western Allies  and Japanese figures will be accurate. There is no way of knowing Chinese numbers.. the numbers are too politically influenced. There is no accurate number for even just the Rape of Nanking much less the war.

I will be back..books in hand! haha



temagic -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/11/2007 11:04:35 AM)

The Kodoha was lead by the old Toseiha faction leaders, and on top of the hierarky was Hideko Tojo. Araki Sadao had been retired after the failed 2-2-6 coup, but under the Kodoha regime, he was put in charge of many elements in the education system, thus spreading his influence and thoughts on Bushido. Hideki Tojo united the factions with the failures of the Japanese-American negotiations and as a party, the Kodoha was ready to take over control with the fall of the last Konoye cabinet. Emperor Hirohito himself asked the Kodoha (Hideki Tojo) to lead the country, as he hoped the united front in the army would be necessary, should the country averge or become victorious in the national crisis that had emerged with the international trade blockade against the empire.



Fishbed -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/11/2007 11:09:37 AM)

quote:

Oh, and...as long as i'm asking...enyone know the death toll of the Pacific War, if possible Sino-Japanese War included?

Unfortunately, as Vetamur says, no chance to know anything really accurate on the Chinese side. The war there was just too big, at a time and a place when and where no-one cared about writing down anything in details, apart the IJA for its own troops (but still, how do you expect to keep track of every single Japanese soldier in such a mess the Chinese theater was...). But even Chinese auxilliaries fighting for the Japanese and, for some of them, raised by the muppets (then muppet) gouvernement(s) don't get the same attention as the true IJA soldier, and I admit this must be somekind of a surrender when the only number you may read about them is "probably over 1 million"...
Even if written sources are not that numerous, I am sure there is still plenty work to be done on that, that's partly why Im in China btw.

Honda, would you care if I ask you if you could reveal to us, in a matter of lines, what is your opinion about the implication of the Emperor in the war? Are you a pro-Bergamini/Bix or an advocate of Hiro-Hito's non-involvement? I suppose, as you worked a lot more on the question than us, simple mortals [;)] you must have an answer by now, even we all do have an opinion on that matter (well I suppose someone like Vetamur has one for instance, right?)



Fishbed -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/11/2007 11:28:25 AM)

Opened a book, Hsiung & Levin's "China's bitter victory" to look for some numbers.

They apparently don't give an accurate assessment (over 3 millions military and 18 millions civilians) which is from a 1985 work in the Renmin Ribao (...People's daily. Ahem okay but everything coming from them is not necessarily historically-speaking evil. Not always.) but they offer a very accurate table about the refugees in China, in the main cities, and this was a KMT report of 1946 just after the war. If you are interested I can give you these numbers.



Vetamur -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/11/2007 12:59:24 PM)

To be really really cynical.. and somewhat show my colors as far as how I feel about the Chinese government... They claim 20 to 22 million killed.. so I would put the figure at about 15 million. Im not trying to be unsympathetic. But the Chinese government is never straight forward on this.. they manipulate the numbers to reach their political ends.  But.. in point of fact they dont know. There was no effective government census in China pre or post war.. during the war the Chinese consistantly minimized their casualties to show how good they were doing, then post war they maximize their casualties to show how evil Japan was and is.

The Showa Emperor.. ones view on his role is sort of a litmus test to ones view of Japan I believe.  One tends to believe what one wants to believe and I think Westerners in general want a clear answer and there isnt one. Typicaly Western countries have difficulty understanding that other countries are ruled in the same way..there arent clearly dileneated lines. I doubt Hirohitos role is clearly defined..at times he may have been able to force through an opinion..other times not.  Obviously there is a lot of conflicting information and to some degree they may both be true.  Even when you do get information on the Emperor.. its hard to know if he really was saying something..or was one of his "handlers" saying it. Even today the IHA (Imperial Household Agency) exists and getting anything through it or out of it is notoriously difficult.



Fishbed -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/11/2007 1:16:00 PM)

Sure. Im in my 2nd year of master of contemporary history, and actually my first year paper was about the use (not to say the manipulation) of history by Chinese past and contemporary nationalism, so don't worry about that, we must be feeling the same.

In this country, history is a joke that leads only to teaching jobs, which is not exactly a very nice position unless you're in Beida, Sun Zhongshan or some other big fat city glorious university. In this country where post-1949 contemporary history is taboo, and where researchers are said what to search for and what to conclude out of what they'll have "found", actually Im not a true fan of what I read in the history books here... [;)]



Honda -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/11/2007 2:27:03 PM)

Thanks guys.
Regarding Hirohito, I'll be brief. As a JFB I should be expected to glorify Japan and all that is Japanes, and gamewise, that's true. Gotta keep the morale up for those on the front[:D]
But regarding Japan's involvment in WW2 it's hard not feel sickened by their actions, particulary in China. Most problematic to me is the obvious lack of political will to deal with the past and that's a slap in the face to all victims of Japanese occupation. On the other hand, it's obvious and stated by many japanes that Japan has accomplished its wartime goals in postwar period. aving got there, they probably concluded just to shove the past under the rug, being in the position of power with noone telling them what to do. Quite the contrary situation in Croatia, where things are very complicated and on every turn we end up being called nazis. Funny really, since the partisan movement originated in Croatia and so on...(I'm straying here, gotta stop!)
So in my thesis, where im writing about the plethora of reasons, mechanizms or whatever that helped Japan push itself into WW2, I decided to keep the issues mostly political, economic and military. Going into harts and mind of Japanese is impossible for me without knowing the county, its people and language. Here's what I'm writing about (by chapters):
1. IJA influnence in Japanese politics
2. Japan's invasion of China
3. Personal reasons (Konoe, Matsuoka, Hornbeck, Hull, Roosevel)
4. secret societies, lobbys and conspiracies
5. Mistakes and misunderstandings
6. Econonic and demographical reasons
7. Japanes preparations for for during negotiations
8. Japan's signing of the Tripartite Pact
Those are my points of discussion. Each of them holds part of the answer why what happened happened, and each has contributed, if only a little, to the outbreak of the war. It's a mosaic of oiecec that don't have to mean anything by themselves, but when looked at from distance produse a clear picture.
You can see that Hirohito is not a point of discussion. I didn't want to involve myself in such a controvesial issue. First of all, there's no black and white, not only here, but everywhere regarding history. I personaly think Hirohito had the power to stop the war but lacked courage to do so. He must have been intoxicated, like many others, by the promise sweet and easy victories only augmented by the embargo that was strangleing Japanese economy. For all care, he could have been a teddy bear in his heart and a trully good man, but being a sovereign of a county involved in such abhominable crimes had to involve some sort of consequence. But his inocence was a political decision, just like others' guilt was. Nothing nwe there. On the other hand, Hirohito was a moderating voice so...I don't know, to form a firm opinion I'd have to dig deeper into the Imperial family and that just wasn't my intention.



Fishbed -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/11/2007 9:47:41 PM)

Thanks for your own insight on that matter Honda :)



Apollo11 -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/12/2007 11:31:12 AM)

Hi all,

"Honda" are you 100% sure that Toland's book is innacurate regarding certain facts regarding Japanese politics before WWII?

If yes can you please specify?

I am asking this because I was pretty certain that his "Rise and Fall of Japanese Empire" was quite OK and well documented general work...


Leo "Apollo11"




Honda -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/12/2007 1:50:29 PM)

Just the obvious mistake is on p.67 (Craotian edition) where Toland is quoting Ugaki after being "sabotaged" in forming a government. Ugaki, being a leader of Toseiha complains about individuals on top positions who formed a group which is denying him a war minister for his government...and Toland here says that group is the Control group. Now how on earth can a leader of Control group complain about the same group's influence? It's obvious Toland mixed them up at some point.
Immediatly bellow, on the same page, Toland states that general Hayashi was the one to successfuly form a government only because he had the backing of the Control group. which is again untrue because Hayashi was Araki's follower. Araki of course being a leader of Kodaha.
The fact is that throughout his book Toland describes Control group as conservative hardliners bent on conquering China and The Imperial Way group as opposed to expansion into China and consisted of young and idealistic officers. I'm not sure about the China position, but although there are no falacies in the description above, it doesn't seem to portray a most accurate image of the groups. I have my doubts also based on Toland's inconsistancy on the matter of the two groups. Perhaps he just didn't researh them much and his empasis does seem to be on personal accounts and then forming those to tell a story. Good read, but now...



Apollo11 -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/12/2007 2:20:11 PM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Honda

Just the obvious mistake is on p.67 (Craotian edition) where Toland is quoting Ugaki after being "sabotaged" in forming a government. Ugaki, being a leader of Toseiha complains about individuals on top positions who formed a group which is denying him a war minister for his government...and Toland here says that group is the Control group. Now how on earth can a leader of Control group complain about the same group's influence? It's obvious Toland mixed them up at some point.
Immediatly bellow, on the same page, Toland states that general Hayashi was the one to successfuly form a government only because he had the backing of the Control group. which is again untrue because Hayashi was Araki's follower. Araki of course being a leader of Kodaha.
The fact is that throughout his book Toland describes Control group as conservative hardliners bent on conquering China and The Imperial Way group as opposed to expansion into China and consisted of young and idealistic officers. I'm not sure about the China position, but although there are no falacies in the description above, it doesn't seem to portray a most accurate image of the groups. I have my doubts also based on Toland's inconsistancy on the matter of the two groups. Perhaps he just didn't researh them much and his empasis does seem to be on personal accounts and then forming those to tell a story. Good read, but now...


Could it be that this is due to translation or something else (the book we both read here was translated in 1970's when "socialism" was reigning in full force and China was great communist friend)?

Can someone with original (i.e. English) version confirm this please?


Leo "Apollo11"



Honda -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/12/2007 10:14:46 PM)

China was friends with Albania[:)]
And we. We loved everybody[sm=love0028.gif]



Apollo11 -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/14/2007 5:45:56 PM)

Hi all,

So... any owner of John Toland's

"The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1936-1945"

willing to check his English original?


Leo "Apollo11"



rtrapasso -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/14/2007 5:48:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

So... any owner of John Toland's

"The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1936-1945"

willing to check his English original?


Leo "Apollo11"


Don't have one, but next time i'm in the library i'll see if they do... if someone else doesn't find it first.



Vetamur -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/14/2007 6:19:57 PM)

I havent been able to find any of my stuff and I never had a Tolands. If I cant find mine in the next week I guess I will be re ordering a bunch. Its actually good this topic came up because when I looked for my books on it Ive found out that I seem to be missing 1 or possibly two boxes..

Regarding Japans viewpoint of the war.. its very very true they do not dwell on the dates, etc of it, and not on what was done in their name. However, to say that they didnt learn from and havent dealt with it is untrue, very clearly.  As a result of the war Japan has a "peace" constitution, not written by them, but still in force today. Despite being surrounded by semi to overtly hostile nuclear armed nations (China, North Korea, Russia) Japan has not made any attempt to aquire them for herself. The population is extremely pacifist, with laws handcuffing the Self Defence Forces to a degree that nearly any other nation would find intolerable (several years ago a North Korean spy boat was caught red handed but escaped as the Japanese couldnt fire on it).  Military spending hovers at 1% of the national budget, and they get even less out of that than you might imagine as the Self Defence salaries are quite high and domestically produced equipment is quite expensive (since they refuse to export weapons the cost per unit is quite high). Its true Japan may not say all the nice words and right things..and people like Abe are morons.. but in their DEEDS Japan has more than shown they have interalized the lessons of the war.



rtrapasso -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/15/2007 10:12:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

So... any owner of John Toland's

"The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1936-1945"

willing to check his English original?


Leo "Apollo11"


OK - i checked the book out of the library - but the page numbers don't correspond (apparently)...

What chapter are we talking about, and how far into it? (i.e.: about 1/4 way into "To The Marco Polo Bridge", or whatever...)



Honda -> RE: Kodaha, Toseiha and Kodoha (3/16/2007 2:14:17 AM)

The begining of the second chapter in "To the Marco Polo Bridge".



Page: [1] 2   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
4.46875