Effectiveness of FlaK (Full Version)

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Jaeger -> Effectiveness of FlaK (8/22/2000 12:33:00 AM)

After 40-some battles in the Long Campaign as the Germans, I am forced (1945) to buy from four to eight platoons of FlaK to stay alive against US bombing. My question is how is the effectiveness of FlaK calculated? By flak type, type of target, etc?? I buy the 37 mm Flak43. It seems that if I count the number of hits, based on the sound of the FlaK hitting the plane, it takes about four to bring that plane, fighter or bomber, down. Even if I get a hit from my 88, it still takes about 4 hits. I did not find anything on this in the manual. Thanks. George



illo -> (8/22/2000 12:59:00 AM)

If 88mm flak hits plane you can ask what is left of it. Even near misses were extremely dangerous to b17s [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]



Arralen -> (8/22/2000 3:56:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by illo: If 88mm flak hits plane you can ask what is left of it. Even near misses were extremely dangerous to b17s [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
But not in the game - it's not only the hit/no hit issue .. it's correct that large caliber AA guns don't bring down planes with one hit. Saw this with the Japanese 75mm (the "Japs 88" [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] ) .. scored several hits for 16 points (each time exactly this amount!!) on some Russian SB-2, but these planes have 20 hit points so I was unable to take down any !! How is the damage from AA hits calculated? I wonder how the 75mm AA could to 16 points damage only ?? On the other hand, I need them mostly agaist tanks ... best gun the Japs have [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Arralen



Owl -> (8/24/2000 1:14:00 AM)

I am beginning to form the opinion that points spent on flak would be better spent on more troops/tanks/etc. The flak seems to be nearly worthless in most cases. As a recent example in the German campaign in late 1942 I have 5 88's, 4 20mm quads, and a mobile quad on a halftrack. No planes were shot down or damaged to my knowledge and there were numerous attacks. This seems to be about normal. Having no experience with flak I can't say whether this is realistic or not but it seems flak should be a bit better. Does anyone see any benifit in buying flak at all? For all the points in this instance I spent all on flak I could have gotten a several Tigers, lots more troops, other good stuff. ------------------ (.) (.) ...V... [This message has been edited by Owl (edited August 23, 2000).]



cjpaul -> (8/24/2000 2:37:00 AM)

I've been playing a German campaign solely versus the Russians. If I have to defend or delay, I buy 4 pairs of 20mm quads. The trick I've found is to keep them very close to the tanks, especially Königtigers. That way the airplanes have to fly close to them to bomb the tanks. Then the hit percentage for the aa guns is higher and the planes get hit. Doing this, I have shot down 10 planes in 3 years and more importantly the planes have been suppressed so that their hit probability goes down. I have yet to lose a tank to a plane.



kao16 -> (8/24/2000 10:22:00 AM)

I like to use US M16's for AA defence, mainly because they have a useful performance against infantry, their performance against aircraft hasn't been as good (ever tried to shoot down Il-2 Stormoviks with quad 50) [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img],



victorhauser -> (8/24/2000 4:55:00 PM)

When playing the Germans in a long campaign, I like to have about a dozen 88s in my core (they are too expensive to start, but I upgrade 37mm AT guns to 88s as soon as I can). I also try to give each 88 at least 5 kills per game (or more) to ensure a very rapid experience gain between battles. I give them absolute kill priority over all my other units during the early battles of the campaign. I want my 88s to be elite (over experience 100) by the 6th battle of the campaign. A dozen elite 88s with good fields of fire will shoot down a LOT of enemy planes, I assure you. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] [This message has been edited by victorhauser (edited August 24, 2000).]



Owl -> (8/25/2000 11:16:00 PM)

A dozen 88's?!? Yep, I'd bet those would be effective. I am trying however to keep things at least a bit realistic as far as numbers of particular types of units in my core force. While I'd bet there were times where they had a concentration of 88's it was probably not the norm. Another problem is that the 88's should be set at game start for AA or ground fire mode, the ones in the game are just too versitile (unrealistic, but fun if they're on my side). In "real" life the 88's couldn't go from AA to ground mode very fast. 3rd problem, 88's were long range, high altitude flak. They were not effective or even used to my knowledge to fire at dive bombing/strafing aircraft - they couldn't track fast enough. That's why there IS 20, 37, 40 mm AA. Has anyone had success with a more realistic number of flak units? Maybe it's tactics needed not numbers of flak? Hmm, in re-reading this it sounds a bit like I'm flaming Victorhauser, not intentional! if a dozen 88's is what it takes then more power to him. In my case I just like a more true to life mix. ------------------ (.) (.) ...V...



Hauptmann6 -> (8/25/2000 11:42:00 PM)

I do fairly well with a few Flack Tracks, and 6(total) quad 20s or 37s, I keep the tracks up front and the towed to the rear and I hit probably 50-60% of the AC that fly over, and kill 10-20% I think it is all in the flack tacticts that you use. I place the guns on hill often, and ALWAYS in the open. HTH Haupt



victorhauser -> (8/26/2000 6:25:00 AM)

To Owl: I was not offended and did not feel flamed by your post. However, my core force (based on 1800 points to start) for Germans in 1939 has at least 145 units in it. So a dozen 88s (an "historical" TO/E for a heavy flak battalion) in a core numbering 145+ units is not so terribly out of line. Also, since my core is presumably the premier (and most heavily engaged) Kampfgruppe in the entire Wehrmacht (why else would I be playing the campaign?), then I don't feel I'm "abusing" reality too much. (I refer you to Rommel's use of 88s in North Africa.) [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Besides, I also use plenty of 20mm and 37mm flak, too, (but I count on my 88s doing most of the AA damage). As to the claim that 88s had a difficult time switching between roles I agree. However, I've found that early in the campaign my 88s spend most of their time as AT platforms and later in the campaign (after I've upgraded to heavier AFVs and enemy airpower escalates) they are usually in the rear as AA platforms. So once again I don't see too much "hypocrisy" in keeping 88s as dual purpose weapons in SPWaW. I also agree that lighter AA platforms were more "nimble" when engaging enemy attack aircraft, but 88s could be and were used to good effect in that role provided the crews were good enough.



Tombstone -> (8/26/2000 6:54:00 AM)

For AAA to be effective in spwaw you need them to be in the right place at the right time or have HIGH experience values. Since the right place at the right time, all the time isn't a reasonable aspiration Victorhauser's method is the only alternative for campaign play. For generated battles you have to make something look too good to not use airplanes on (like arty or something) and set up some kind of airplane ambush, hoping you can draw your enemy into using their planes on your terms..... Tomo



Venger -> (8/29/2000 5:40:00 AM)

Took a 4-pack of M15A1's in my campaign against the Russians from 1941-1949 as the U.S. Have upgraded some 37mm to 90mm AA. Last time I saw aircraft, a pair of Russian Yaks went to their spinning death. Very effective AA. Go figure. Venger



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