Siege casualties (Full Version)

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Kingnothinb -> Siege casualties (3/27/2007 2:06:02 AM)


Howdy,

I'm a long time lurker, first time poster... Anyways I'm a Union player and so far I've been really bogged down by sieges in the west. Maybe I'm not building my western armies up enough but it seems like sieges are way too deadly. I'm sieging in Kentucky and Tennessee in early '62 (my 20k vrs CSA 10k usually) and if I let the siege go it will ruin my besieging corps. By the end of the siege my troops will be reduced to 3-4 thousand.

Do I just need to use bigger armies to siege with? I know that historically Buell and Grant had a lot more than I did when they took Henry and Donelson. I'm wary of trying any more sieges lest they ruin my armies.

thanks!



Gil R. -> RE: Siege casualties (3/27/2007 2:21:28 AM)

We're still tweaking how effective (and deadly) sieges are. Please give us more info, especially regarding what types of sieges you're using, and what sorts of weapons and attributes your units had that would be pertinent.

Do note that the game was designed so that units with the Engineers attribute and/or siege artillery will have an easier time of it. As the North, you should easily be able to afford to purchase engineers for multiple brigades. Siege artillery too, though that takes a while to build.



Kingnothinb -> RE: Siege casualties (3/27/2007 2:28:18 AM)


It's early war and I'm using real basic infantry to siege with. No engineers or siege guns. I spend all my money in the east mostly.

I've done 5 or 6 regular sieges so far all with around 20k infantry armed w/Minies or Springfields versus ~10k rebels. Results are a total slaughter of my troops and in 3-4 turns the siege is over with the result being a lack of offensive troops to continue the siege.

I expected since I only had 20k versus 10k that the siege would take a looong time. Instead it's a severe beating for the attackers. [:D]



Gil R. -> RE: Siege casualties (3/27/2007 2:35:23 AM)

Well, one factor is that you're using troops that are generally poorer than those of the South. The CSA starts off at a decided advantage in this area (I'm assuming you're playing a November scenario), so if your troops are mostly at 2.0-2.5 quality they'll be mowed down. Of course, those who survive will gain in quality, so over time they'll become much better at this.

If you purchase some brigades (instead of mustering) they'll come in at higher quality, and that will be a big help.



Kingnothinb -> RE: Siege casualties (3/27/2007 2:45:30 AM)

Yeah I expected that in battle. That's true my western troops are all around ~2.0 quality. I figured a siege would has less conflict than a battle. now that I think about it, I could see high quality troops sallying forth and ruining a too small besieging force. Thanks Gil!

Really cool to post on a game forum and have a developer actually respond. [8D] 



Erik Rutins -> RE: Siege casualties (3/27/2007 3:44:38 AM)

You should try the other siege options too and definitely buy Engineers, even if you can't get Siege Artillery ready in time, buy Engineers.



Drex -> RE: Siege casualties (3/27/2007 3:53:12 AM)

There is really only one way to bring sieges to a close in acceptable time and that is with siege artillery with engineers. Minimum of two siege units but if the AI installs a div (5 brigades) in a fort or city, your forces will still be decimated. for large garrisons I use 4 siege gun units and engineers and be prepared to still reinforce the losses with an inf brigade per turn. But sieges (using entrench) only last two turns or so.



Gil R. -> RE: Siege casualties (3/27/2007 4:13:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kingnothinb

Really cool to post on a game forum and have a developer actually respond. [8D]


Thanks. But as we all know, that says more about other companies than it does us.



spruce -> RE: Siege casualties (3/27/2007 2:34:58 PM)

something I noticed as playing the CSA, is the extremely leathel effect of Union garrisons in cities. My god, what have these guys eaten?

I moved in on Wheeling with 2 divisions and on the capital of Kansas with 2 divisions. After one turn of siege my divisions were so badly mauled by these garrisons, I had to stop the siege there.

Did you guys change something there.

by the way = I spotted that those cities had a high amount of garrison troops (about 3 - 5 green dots).



Hard Sarge -> RE: Siege casualties (3/27/2007 2:49:54 PM)

the old standard for normal combat, was 3 to 1 odds or don't attack, in seiges, I think it should be higher, so....

20,000 vs 10,000 is not good odds to begin with, so best chance would be to encircle and try to stave them out

if you have the numbers, then go for Attack the Forts, but be ready for a HW Fort battle, and Forts are Nasty unless you have the right troops

what worked before, does not work as well now

(the last set of tests, I ran, I still had complaints, but we needed to get the patch out, so we may still be working on that area)

if you attack the Forts, expect a bloody battle, but you get to control who loses most of the blood




Erik Rutins -> RE: Siege casualties (3/27/2007 2:50:47 PM)

The main thing that changed is that the casualties they cause are now split among more of you brigades. In the past, they might "overkill" one brigade. Now those losses are spread out and felt in full. With that said, a lot depends on the type of siege and what advantages you have. We also made cities more vulnerable to siege, so troops in them will tend to take more losses and lose more defense than in forts.



raygiannamore -> RE: Siege casualties (3/27/2007 3:15:02 PM)

Hard Sarge is right when he mentions encirclement. Over time, it will be very effective. What I do in these situations is:

1) Make sure at least some of the brigades have the Engineer attribute.
2) Set your Corp or Army to High Priority for replacements.
3) Use encirclement.

With the beta release, I find the besieger suffers much less casualties than the gold release.

Hope this helps.



sadja -> RE: Siege casualties (3/27/2007 4:10:33 PM)



In the HW fights with forts, they have great range attacks 4-5 hexes. Does this show the real guns that are located in the fort or is this an abstract. Also I came around behind a fort but could not get in. Does the ZOC of a 2 units inside a 5 hex fort force you to blow down the walls with artillery? Or was do I need to be in a certain formation?

If the fort has been upgrade with 42lbs can they be captured with the fort?



ericbabe -> RE: Siege casualties (3/27/2007 4:31:05 PM)

The guns are abstract fort-guns.  Any unit has a chance of knocking-down fort walls in any formation with a fire attack, but artillery (even bde. artillery) and units with engineers have a large advantage.  An artillery unit with two engineers at close range has the best chance.



moose1999 -> RE: Siege casualties (3/27/2007 4:48:39 PM)

My experience is that it is suicide to siege without siege artillery.
Use at least two pieces with big guns (remember you can upgrade your siege artillery's guns just like the ones for your other troops).
It costs only 30 money to buy an engineer ability so, for the union player at least, it shouldn't be a problem to create a whole division or two of engineers.
And remember if you're besieging in a river province you can bring in gunboats too - they help a lot with the artillery advantage.

And about attacking the fort (playing out the siege in detailed combat:

That's a bloody mess. But fun. Some of my toughest and most exciting battles have been fort attacks.
And I find that the defensive AI is actually pretty good in siege battles. Acts sensibly and realistically restrained to the developing situation, mostly holding on to their formidable defensive positions but not completely blind to the odd counter attack.

Again, artillery and engineers are the key. Get your troops up and close to the garrisons (don't engage in long distance firefights - the fort guns will obliterate you) and try to flank the garrison units on at least three sides with strong close combat units. And concentrate your forces - only attack one or two fortifications at a time.

And finally - go for the victory locations - there are never more than three (I think) so to a certain extent you can just ignore the fortifications that hold no victory locations, although the AI will sometimes lash out at you if you turn your back completely to a well-manned fortification or bring in troops from other fortifications that are not under threat. And be careful - the fortifications are often situated so they can cover each other with their guns. And if those guns are fairly big (like in the Fredericksburg province) they can completely rip up a whole division that is attacking a neighbouring fortification by shooting into their backs from surprisingly long distances.

All in all I say attack the fort (if you think you have the troops for it). If you use a decent strategy you will get a better kill/loss ratio than by just doing a normal siege. Though it will still be bloody.
And don't forget - you'll get a damned exciting detalied battle experience out of it too...!

regards,

Norman



Mike13z50 -> RE: Siege casualties (3/27/2007 8:16:53 PM)

Other Tactics for Attack the Fort:

Remember that sight distance in six hexes normally, although I have had the AI shoot me at seven with forts. So when you are attacking the fort, start with one which you can attack in isolation. In other words do not allow the defender to support the fort you are attacking by fire. If the first fort has an objective in it, so much the better, but once you take the first fort you can roll up the line.

Don't allow flank shots on your infantry, and be careful with your columns. You can't move into the fort with infantry in line, so you have to have storm columns available to take the fort. You can move over wall with no adjacent enemy unit, or into a damaged area from hex that is not adjacent to an enemy unit.

Artillery is your friend. I've found the best tactic is to deploy 10 hexes away from the fort I'm going to attack [NOTE: Fog of war does not HIDE forts] then creep up to 8, then advance the artillery to 6 first and fire a couple of shots. You want to have your infantry in position to be in line formation adjacent to enemy units in the fort, this dramatically reduces their fire power for some reason. Often the forts are occupied by fake garrison brigades, which will surrender fairly quickly. As quickly as possible get your assault columns into the fort, and surround the enemy brigades.

I've never had to take all three objectives following this model, the AI breaks first.

For other sieges, engineers are a must, consider using low quality troops (less then 2.0), equip them with muskets and engineers, and form whole siege divisions. In the beta I find the encircle option faster than the normal. I don't really use any of the others.

For the Union, gunboats are great and if you build them in Cincinatti they take advantage of the manufacturing plant and only take 3 turns. With the new costs for naval units you should have 4 gunboats all the way to New Orleans. I usually take Kentucky first (if it goes CSA), then Nashville, then Memphis, Little Rock, Vicksburg, Baton Rouge, New Orleans.



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