Attribute Balance? (Full Version)

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ericbabe -> Attribute Balance? (3/27/2007 4:18:31 PM)

Any thoughts on whether the costs/effects of attributes should be modified?

I'm considering making Scouts increase the base line-of-sight (LOS) range for the unit by a larger amount.

Sharpshooter seems to be overpowered relative to some other attributes. It probably *should* be powerful, sharpshooters were, but maybe this attribute should be harder to come by. Sharpshooters were much better shots than the average soldier, so this really isn't just a matter of the right equipment or a little bit of training as many of the other attributes are.

The prestige of zouaves, from what I can tell, seems to have become less significant as the war progressed. Does anyone else think this as well? I'm considering making the zouave bonus decrease each year of the war to reflect this.

What is the attribute you are least likely to use? Maybe we can increase the effects or decrease the costs of the least-used attributes. Are there any other attributes that are too frequently used?





Drex -> RE: Attribute Balance? (3/27/2007 4:46:50 PM)

Actually I'm tending to use more of a mix of attributes now than I did before. Before I used Brigade Cav and arty alot but now I use most of them. This though is due to the fact that I have played more and know more about the game. Probaby medical is used the most since hospitals don't seem to be enough to stave off disease. Engineers are a must for besieging. Now that I play HW more, the attributes have more meaning for me.



sadja -> RE: Attribute Balance? (3/27/2007 4:53:57 PM)



I like the fact of increasing the range of scouts. Increasing the cost of sharpshooters I'm not in favor of. You are paying the price of a whole brigade in money terms.

I have used all the attributes except slaves and band. The band is too expensive. Yes it might keep a brigade from leaving the field of battle but 10% chance is too small for 80 money. I find most of my HW battles are in the back of the map on defense by those Victory hexes. If somebody routes they are off the board in 3 turns.

I would like to see more than 2 attributes for forts. Level 1 only 2, but level 2 and 3 could have 4. most level 3 forts could not be attacked by infantry. Like Ft. Monroe had very limited access and could only be bombarded by big guns or starved out. Ft. Plulaski the casemate was blown away in only one spot but then the cannons had direct shots on the magazine and it surrenderd. But this was siege artillery not 12lb or 24lb how. If the union tried that they would have been blown away by the forts longer ranged guns. You could limit the siege options on some of these forts. Vicksburge was a level 3 fort, not because of the masionary and casemates, but because of natural terrain and extensive earthworks. This could be assaulted but with enough troops it should be a slaughter to be attacked by infantry. Ft.Fisher was the opposite, you couldn't bombard it alone , but land assualt only.



moose1999 -> RE: Attribute Balance? (3/27/2007 5:23:13 PM)

Good idea about increasing LOS for scouting units. Personally I don't feel the current bonus is quite worth it.

I don't really find sharpshooters overpowered - but I force myself to play realistically by only having a limited amount of sharpshooter brigades. One per corps or something like that.
Perhaps that could be a way to avoid exploitation - you can build as many sharpshooters as you have corps. Or a rule saying that no more than X% of your brigades can be sharpshooters.

I have never used the pioneer ability - partly because I have never really fully understood the combat modifiers of the different terrain types. The manual is not very clear in this department.
And while the baggage train looks nice in detailed battles I hate giving up movement points for a bit of supply. But that's just me I guess.
Never bothered with military bands - 10% rally chance doesn't seem very much. I take it the bonus in rally chance only counts for the unit that has a band.

I don't think you need to decrease the zouave bonus each year. It's not that great to begin with (50% chance at one extra point of morale, that's not such a big deal) and giving a unit the zouave ability is just a way to make it an elite unit - a brigade of specially dedicated soldiers. Such units were around all through the war - some better dressed than others, of course.




Mike13z50 -> RE: Attribute Balance? (3/27/2007 8:00:58 PM)

I regularly buy the following:
Engineer: Siege troops
Baggage Train: Artillery and Sharpshooters
Sharpshooters: 1 per division, although once I had 3 divisions of Whitworth Sharpshooters with Baggage Train.
Smokeless Powder: Artillery
Quality Horses: all cavalry
Horse Artillery: Heavy Cav
Signal Corps: Light Cav and flanking brigades
Bde Artillery (and Gatling Guns): Heavy Infantry
Scouts: 1 per division
Medics: occassionally for the 20% reduced casulties (I haven't played disease yet)
Ballon: 1 per army


I tried slaves with digger units, but it didn't seem worth it.
I'll occasionally buy a Zouve for a LU with low experience.
The Military band doesn't seem worth the price.
I've never bought brigade cavalry, because I rarely charge.

Pioneers don't seem worth the slot, if I'm adding something I go with one of the others. Why not combine Engineers and Pioneers? It would make Engineers, which you must buy for sieges, more valuable in HW.

For the few forts I upgrade, I always go with Bombproof, and either Breastwork or Abatis. I've never used any of the other slots.

The most valuable attributes would be Bde Artillery, Sharpshooter, and Baggage Train, the most necessary is Engineer.






ericbabe -> RE: Attribute Balance? (3/27/2007 8:32:47 PM)

Assuming it takes a unit three turns to rout off the screen, a Band gives it a 28% chance to restore its morale from negative to positive.  There's no limit to the number of times this works.  If we increased the chance to 20%, then over three turns it would have more than a 50% to restore -- and that seems a bit high.  We could try increasing the chance to 15%.  Or we could keep the 10% and give the Band some other ability, maybe a chance to restore units to Fresh or to avoid panic.





Walloc -> RE: Attribute Balance? (3/27/2007 8:57:57 PM)

Engineer: i buy some in my siege armies.
Bagage train: i only buy for the 2 3 brigades that i put in a division that goes around capturing non city provinces. I usually have 2 3 such single brigaded divisions. Its only to avoid the attrition. Never bought it for any thing else. The negative movment modifier is not worth it in HW in style of play. Surround, surround and surround for that u need to move fast [:)]
Sharpshooter: i buy some i'd buy more if i had the cash.
Smokeless poweder: i buy for Sharpshooters and artillery and other high damaging units.
case of right units at right time. Else its useless so i use money and slots for other things.
Medic's: I buy 2 in each division ASAP and some times for high moral brigades. The fewer losses the better u can keep its high moral.
Ballon: only started to buy 1 recently, but again 1 unit with 2 per field army.
Brigade art: use the ones i start with. I buy few but few with some high damage units.
Brigade horse: never bought one. Again it fit my style of play, but dont have the slots / prioverty of money to spend.
Quality horse: buy some if i manage it for. Again usually to late in game that i get cavalry so dont have the time / pripverty.
Gatling guns. War seems over when i get researched this one.
Pioners: Bought a few times buy for artillery, doesnt really seem worth the slot tho.
Signal corps: never bought one. Prolly should with my type of HW play, but well its a
Horse art: Have to few cavalry units so never bought.
Military band: never bougth one. Neither the cost or benefit seems usefull enough
Zouaves: Never bought one.
Slaves: Never bought one.
Scouts: Never bought one.


So for me Sharpshooters, Smokeless powder and medic's are the ones i use. Engineer for siege armies too.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



sadja -> RE: Attribute Balance? (3/28/2007 5:04:14 AM)



Pioneers I use with my artillery for movement and defense. Some times use baggage train for artillery to keep them supplied long enough to supply other units. Med units really help with disease.



dude -> RE: Attribute Balance? (3/28/2007 4:59:43 PM)

Engineers – Frequently… sometimes I’ll make a whole division of Engineers, other times 1 Eng per Division in an army or corps.
Baggage Train – Always add to Artillery.
Bde Artillery – Frequently … Min of 1 unit per division sometimes more.  I’ll also use it twice on the same unit to create an artillery unit.
Pioneers – I’ll sometimes add to Artillery but don't bother to add to other units though I've considered adding to my engineer units.
Medics – didn’t bother pre patch… but post patch at least one per corps
Signal Corps – Add to all Cav units and to units in a division I use for flanking.
Sharpshooters – Usually a min of 1 per Division.
Bde Cav – I only use to create a Cav unit (I add it twice to the same unit.)
Scouts –Add to all Cav units.
Millitary Band – never use, not worth it.
Zouve – never use it, have other abilities to purchase first.  Buy the time I can get around to buying this my units have fairly good moral so no need for this.
Horse Artillery – never use, prefer to use my Cav units as forward scouts and to cut off retreating units (so Scout and Signal Corps are better suited.)
Quaility Horses – would like to use but have already used Scouts and Signal Corps on most Cav units to make them better at flanking and getting behind the enemy forces.

The following I don’t use because I just don’t get around to purchasing the required tech.  I always seem to have more import tech purchases to make:
Ballon – never used
Smokeless Powder – never used
Gatling guns – never used (unless unit came with it)

I do like the suggestion above about combining Engineers and Pioneers though.

The real trick is to put together a good force that has the right combination of units/attributes.  Then being careful not to split the units up or reorganizing them.  I sometimes wish there was a way on the container display window to show what attributes a unit has or at least some of the critical ones...(put a little castle next to the brigade if it's an engineer for example...)  I'm always having to click on them to see who's got what... (nothing like marching away from a captured city only to realize you left your engineers on garrison duty...[X(])

Dude



Erik Rutins -> RE: Attribute Balance? (3/28/2007 5:16:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dude
The real trick is to put together a good force that has the right combination of units/attributes.  Then being careful not to split the units up or reorganizing them.  I sometimes wish there was a way on the container display window to show what attributes a unit has or at least some of the critical ones...(put a little castle next to the brigade if it's an engineer for example...)  I'm always having to click on them to see who's got what... (nothing like marching away from a captured city only to realize you left your engineers on garrison duty...[X(])


That's actually there as of the new patch - its abbreviated text, but if you play with the container list prefs, you'll see the ability to show atttibutes and special abilities.



Alex Gilbert -> RE: Attribute Balance? (3/28/2007 5:21:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dude


The real trick is to put together a good force that has the right combination of units/attributes.  Then being careful not to split the units up or reorganizing them.  I sometimes wish there was a way on the container display window to show what attributes a unit has or at least some of the critical ones...(put a little castle next to the brigade if it's an engineer for example...)  I'm always having to click on them to see who's got what... (nothing like marching away from a captured city only to realize you left your engineers on garrison duty...[X(])

Dude



Actually, on the container display, you can choose "attributes" from the drop down box (the same one with quality, strength, weapon etc) to see the attributes of your entire force. I never noticed it pre-patch, and thought it was a good addition (or maye it was always there and I never noticed it).

I am playing mostly PBEM, so I dont get to use HW, but definitely think that the impact of these attributes (as well as the various special skills, and the research advancements) in quick/instant battles need to be spelled out, just as the various weapons upgrades were.

As it is, I am guessing as to what to buy.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Attribute Balance? (3/28/2007 5:26:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alex Gilbert
I am playing mostly PBEM, so I dont get to use HW, but definitely think that the impact of these attributes (as well as the various special skills, and the research advancements) in quick/instant battles need to be spelled out, just as the various weapons upgrades were.


They are, actually - in quick battle, during deployment, right click on a unit icon for info which will now also tell you the effect of each attribute.



Alex Gilbert -> RE: Attribute Balance? (3/28/2007 5:36:23 PM)

In PBEM I do not get to set up my QB force. (although I now do get to watch the QB unfold during the replay)

I could run a test game with QB, and buy each attribute individually so I can run a test battle and find out what they do, then compile a spreadsheet, but dont know when I will get the time to do that, and it still leaves me lacking information on the special abilities and research upgrades.

Perhaps this information could simply be added to the readme file that will accompany the finished patch instead? I am happy to print it out as a reference sheet rather than have it programmed into the game itself (though of course, perhaps as part of the "wish list"....)





ericbabe -> RE: Attribute Balance? (3/28/2007 6:14:47 PM)

I'll change it so that Pioneers allow units to dig field fortifications even if the player doesn't have Hasty Entrenchments and provide a +10% to all attempts to dig field fortifications.



ericbabe -> RE: Attribute Balance? (3/28/2007 6:25:00 PM)

I'll change Military Bands so that brigades that are routed that return to positive morale will go immediately to column formation instead of going to disordered formation, and also allow them a 50% chance to stop a unit from panicking in fire and charge combat.





Gil R. -> RE: Attribute Balance? (3/28/2007 7:14:05 PM)

Of course, the fact that no one's buying marching bands is quite historical: the U.S. War Dept. banned them after July 1862 because they didn't consider regimental bands a good use of men and resources.



Mike13z50 -> RE: Attribute Balance? (3/28/2007 9:46:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

I'll change it so that Pioneers allow units to dig field fortifications even if the player doesn't have Hasty Entrenchments and provide a +10% to all attempts to dig field fortifications.

That will make pioneers worth buying until you learn Hasty Entrenchment.

quote:

The real trick is to put together a good force that has the right combination of units/attributes.


Especially if the HW setup routine is modified so Corps deploy as a unit [;)]



Miserere -> RE: Attribute Balance? (3/29/2007 11:13:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

I'll change Military Bands so that brigades that are routed that return to positive morale will go immediately to column formation instead of going to disordered formation, and also allow them a 50% chance to stop a unit from panicking in fire and charge combat.





How about instead of (or in addition to) the chance to prevent panicking, it reduces the morale loss of the unit from fire attacks by a percentage (maybe 20%)?



ericbabe -> RE: Attribute Balance? (3/29/2007 11:40:34 PM)

That's a good idea.  We'll see if the panic thing is enough first; this could be a next step if we need to add more to make them interesting.



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