Questions before purchase

Questions before purchase (Full Version)

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Icekill -> Questions before purchase (4/13/2007 8:40:05 PM)
Hi guys, i'm a huge SPWAW fan and recently i read about this ACW game. Apart from being interested on the game period for a change from WWII, what i like from this game features is that it can be played both in a strategic and tactical level, something i missed from SPWAW that was only tactical. I don't like either wargames that are only strategic where the battles last one second and just display who won/lost. For what i have read, FoF has the perfect mix of strategic decisions but where i can also play the battles tactically. My main question is, how good is the tactic battles AI? is it worth to play the battles that way instead of simulating them or is it too simple and not tactically deep enough? Thanks in advance.

Gil R. -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/13/2007 9:23:46 PM)
Icekill, I'm obviously biased, so someone else should answer your questions, but if you look at the poll thread that I just bumped up, you'll see that only about 20% of those who play "Forge of Freedom" never fight detailed battles, and most people play these quite frequently. And this poll was taken before we made all of the improvements to detailed battles for the patch that's currently in public beta-testing.

Yogi the Great -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/13/2007 9:26:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icekill My main question is, how good is the tactic battles AI? is it worth to play the battles that way instead of simulating them or is it too simple and not tactically deep enough? Thanks in advance. Disclaimer: I'm pretty new to the game myself and may not be the best to answer. I have found the detailed battle AI pretty challenging. Haven't seen much in the way of very poor play by the AI. It also seems to be quite "aggressive". I was initially taken back by how quickly it went on the attack and in an effective way, not suicide assaults. I have also found that if you win a required victory hex and then leave it poorly protected that the AI will take it back. I've played many other AI's that leave such squares undefended or never attempt to take them. You will find that your combat losses against the AI will be quite substantial and if not careful, you will have that sick feeling of watching your forces sound the retreat, even though you started with superior numbers.[X(] So I guess my short answer is that I have found the AI both at the strategic and tactical level to be pretty good, especialy in comparision to many of the other AI's out there.

Johnus -> Thief ! Thief ! (4/14/2007 2:06:18 AM)
Dear Yogi the Great: You have usurped my nickname, Yogi, which, sadly, no one calls me anymore. Also, and this is very wierd, I had a beagle, who died about ten years ago who looked exactly like the dog pictured in your signature. His name was, you guessed it, Yogi. I trust and hope your dog is named something else, thief. After, of course, Yogi Berra.

Walloc -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/14/2007 4:27:51 AM)
I play all the battles i can in tactical battles. How good is the AI, if u read through some of the postings on the board it should give u pretty good answer. In short ill say its give u a run for ur money. At some point i found that u master those battles and u do much better and the AI might not be quiet the same challange. I find that, that do differ from person to person. Some master such easily others dont. I personally find lots of deepth both in tactical as in the strategical aspects of the game. Can i say that i cant pretty well beat the AI now that i have "mastered" the game, well no. there are always exceptions ofcourse. Well i find that to be true in all the wargames i've ever played and u can always turn up the difficulty. As far as the mix between strategic and tactical its about the best i've ever seen. kind regards, Rasmus

christof139 -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/14/2007 5:38:45 AM)
quote: I play all the battles i can in tactical battles. How good is the AI, if u read through some of the postings on the board it should give u pretty good answer. In short ill say its give u a run for ur money. At some point i found that u master those battles and u do much better and the AI might not be quiet the same challange. I find that, that do differ from person to person. Some master such easily others dont. I personally find lots of deepth both in tactical as in the strategical aspects of the game. Can i say that i cant pretty well beat the AI now that i have "mastered" the game, well no. there are always exceptions ofcourse. Well i find that to be true in all the wargames i've ever played and u can always turn up the difficulty. As far as the mix between strategic and tactical its about the best i've ever seen. kind regards, Rasmus Spartan and Troy and Legion were great strategic and tactical games and took a long time to finish a campaign. Wish they had more Naval in them though, and if FoF tweaks up the Naval aspects it will be more fun. Blue water Ships and River Gunboats have to be able to take part in bombarments of Forts, and I do believe Gunboats can do this now if you put the siege setting on bombard, but I don't think Ships can do this since they can't enter rivers, and perhaps they should be allowed to sail on the Mississippi up to Memphis or Cairo since they actually did and could during the ACW. the Miss. River is 60-foot and more deep in its main channel at normal water level. Chris

Yogi the Great -> RE: Thief ! Thief ! (4/14/2007 3:32:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Johnnie Dear Yogi the Great: You have usurped my nickname, Yogi, which, sadly, no one calls me anymore. Also, and this is very wierd, I had a beagle, who died about ten years ago who looked exactly like the dog pictured in your signature. His name was, you guessed it, Yogi. I trust and hope your dog is named something else, thief. After, of course, Yogi Berra. Yogi was a nickname (sort of short for my difficult last name) given to me when I was in grade school. Most friends called me Yogi through my High School years. Yogi Bear was one of the big cartooons when I was young along with Huckleberry Hound and the others. The Beagle is Elton - who sadly is no longer with us, but lived up to the name of man's best friend so I find it hard to part. When I signed up for the forum, I had to add "the Great" to the name Yogi as apparently someone else was already using Yogi as a sign in. Didn't mean to usurp your name. If you're a Yogi, I guess you can't be all bad.

christof139 -> RE: Thief ! Thief ! (4/14/2007 6:09:44 PM)
quote: Yogi was a nickname (sort of short for my difficult last name) given to me when I was in grade school. Most friends called me Yogi through my High School years. Yogi Bear was one of the big cartooons when I was young along with Huckleberry Hound and the others. The Beagle is Elton - who sadly is no longer with us, but lived up to the name of man's best friend so I find it hard to part. When I signed up for the forum, I had to add "the Great" to the name Yogi as apparently someone else was already using Yogi as a sign in. Didn't mean to usurp your name. If you're a Yogi, I guess you can't be all bad. First or second dog I ever had was a Beagle named George, and Skippy a very smart black Spaniel-mongrel was his friend and also the first or second dog I had, can't remember who came first, george or Skippy. Had 2 very large German Short Haired Pointers later in life, with 2 mischevious THE CATS at the same time, and they could and did wreak havoc together on our home when they played. They all slept together too, really cute and cuddley. Chris

Gil R. -> RE: Thief ! Thief ! (4/14/2007 8:22:02 PM)
Icekill, Apparently what you're learning is that regardless of whether you should buy "Forge of Freedom," you should probably be buying a dog...

Gray_Lensman -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/14/2007 10:51:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: christof139 quote: I play all the battles i can in tactical battles. How good is the AI, if u read through some of the postings on the board it should give u pretty good answer. In short ill say its give u a run for ur money. At some point i found that u master those battles and u do much better and the AI might not be quiet the same challange. I find that, that do differ from person to person. Some master such easily others dont. I personally find lots of deepth both in tactical as in the strategical aspects of the game. Can i say that i cant pretty well beat the AI now that i have "mastered" the game, well no. there are always exceptions ofcourse. Well i find that to be true in all the wargames i've ever played and u can always turn up the difficulty. As far as the mix between strategic and tactical its about the best i've ever seen. kind regards, Rasmus Spartan and Troy and Legion were great strategic and tactical games and took a long time to finish a campaign. Wish they had more Naval in them though, and if FoF tweaks up the Naval aspects it will be more fun. Blue water Ships and River Gunboats have to be able to take part in bombarments of Forts, and I do believe Gunboats can do this now if you put the siege setting on bombard, but I don't think Ships can do this since they can't enter rivers, and perhaps they should be allowed to sail on the Mississippi up to Memphis or Cairo since they actually did and could during the ACW. the Miss. River is 60-foot and more deep in its main channel at normal water level. Chris How about showing us some instances where blue water sailing ships actually were used on the Mississippi during the ACW. Note I said "blue water sailing ships" and not steam powered ironclads/gunboats. The game differentiates between blue water sailing ships and gunboat/ironclads for just that reason. If you want to use naval vessels on the Mississippi, then you build ironclad/gunboats for that purpose just as in the actual ACW.

christof139 -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/15/2007 12:59:12 AM)
quote: How about showing us some instances where blue water sailing ships actually were used on the Mississippi during the ACW. Note I said "blue water sailing ships" and not steam powered ironclads/gunboats. The game differentiates between blue water sailing ships and gunboat/ironclads for just that reason. If you want to use naval vessels on the Mississippi, then you build ironclad/gunboats for that purpose just as in the actual ACW. I already gave you instances and info. as to the great depths the Miss. River can reach bleow where the Ohio River joins it in the other thread, so how about you reading the other thread and reading some more of the US Navy operations against Vicksburg and Port Hudson. Don't you know that the ocean going sloops of war and frigates USS Richmond, Hartford, Mississippi, Monogahela, and others sailed from New Orleans up to Port Hudson and some even to Vicksburg?? It was the forts at Vicksburg and Port hudson that provided difficulty to navigation on the Miss. River by these deep water ocean going vessels, not the depth of the river itself. The USS Mississippi was the only deep water ship sunk on the Miss. River by the CSA at Port Hudson. BTW, the USS Mississippi was the ship that I believe it was Mr. Perry used in Japan. I don't think you know what you are taling about. The Miss. River below where the Ohio River joins it is not the same as the much shallower river where you are at in Iowa. At very low water the deeper draft ocean going warships would have had a bit of a problem because the current would have more often pushed the ships into the sides of the main channel and over its lip into shallower water, but at normal stage these ocean going steam and sail warships did not have a hard time at all navigating the main channel. And BTW, during the ACW the Miss. River was in a high water cycle to boot it seems, but the fact remains that the main channel is deep, much different from the river in Iowa where you are at. So tell me, are you off your noodle or what?? Chris

Gray_Lensman -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/15/2007 1:14:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: christof139 ... So tell me, are you off your noodle or what?? Chris I'm declining your invitation to a flame war... Discussion ended now.

christof139 -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/15/2007 1:18:37 AM)
quote: I'm declining your invitation to a flame war... Discussion ended now It's not an invitation, just a statement backed up by data that you don't know what you are talking about. Chris

Gray_Lensman -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/15/2007 1:57:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: christof139 quote: I'm declining your invitation to a flame war... Discussion ended now It's not an invitation, just a statement backed up by data that you don't know what you are talking about. Chris It became an invitation to a flame war with your insulting "noodle" statement, at which point I decided I didn't want to go down that road since I enjoy the Matrix forums much more than other forums, primarily because it is generally populated by sensible intelligent gamers who just want to discuss gaming and related subjects. Regardless of whether you are right, or I am right, it is not worth taking the forum down that road. That's why I decided to end the discussion.

Erik Rutins -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/15/2007 2:53:48 AM)
Chris, quote: ORIGINAL: christof139 quote: I'm declining your invitation to a flame war... Discussion ended now It's not an invitation, just a statement backed up by data that you don't know what you are talking about. I have to agree with Lensman here. You seem quick to anger and quick to jump on someone who disagrees with you. I looked through the thread in the public beta forum as well as this one here. The only comment I saw from Lensman that I would consider at all annoying is when he told you you were "not in the ballpark" with your information, but that would slide off most people. All you would have had to do was reply with the data you did and say that you disagree. Instead, you seemed to take it personally that he disagreed with you. Your reply was full of exclamation points, several entirely capitalized words (which on the internet mean shouting). While you didn't up and insult him the tone of your reply was pretty darn peeved. I realize you thought he was completely wrong, but hey, people are wrong every day - if you have better info, just share it, don't get upset because someone else doesn't have that same info. Now, for what it's worth, I believe you're right about the Mississippi at that time being navigable a ways up by quite a few ships, though perhaps not all. I've read the same about the ships that worked their way up to New Orleans, Port Hudson and beyond. I think it's an area of the game we could work on. For now, the gunboat units fulfill that role well enough but it would be good to have a little more cross-over for that one river as far as the naval unit possibilities. Now, the final comment here: "So tell me, are you off your noodle or what??" ...is definitely an invitation to an argument and it's pretty darn personal. I don't know if you realize how that comes across, but I understand what Lensman was saying when he thought you wanted a flamewar. Whether you are right or not, you don't need to get so darned personal about it! I was on the receiving end of this kind of thing from you once and I know what I'm talking about here. You need to be a bit less touchy and take things in stride. You clearly know a LOT about the Civil War. Not everyone knows as much, which means that when you find some information that you know is erroneous, just correct it - there's no need to kill the messenger. Lensman clearly spoke up based on some really good contemporary knowledge he has about the Mississippi. I think the history of the ACW contradicts some of that info and you brought that up, but you shouldn't be bothered that someone disagrees with you. It's perfectly possible to share information and win people over without getting in an argument with them. There is an old saying about catching more flies with honey - it's true, you know. [8D] Regards, - Erik

christof139 -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/15/2007 7:12:18 AM)
quote: I have to agree with Lensman here. You seem quick to anger and quick to jump on someone who disagrees with you. I looked through the thread in the public beta forum as well as this one here. The only comment I saw from Lensman that I would consider at all annoying is when he told you you were "not in the ballpark" with your information, but that would slide off most people. All you would have had to do was reply with the data you did and say that you disagree. Instead, you seemed to take it personally that he disagreed with you. Your reply was full of exclamation points, several entirely capitalized words (which on the internet mean shouting). While you didn't up and insult him the tone of your reply was pretty darn peeved. I realize you thought he was completely wrong, but hey, people are wrong every day - if you have better info, just share it, don't get upset because someone else doesn't have that same info. Now, for what it's worth, I believe you're right about the Mississippi at that time being navigable a ways up by quite a few ships, though perhaps not all. I've read the same about the ships that worked their way up to New Orleans, Port Hudson and beyond. I think it's an area of the game we could work on. For now, the gunboat units fulfill that role well enough but it would be good to have a little more cross-over for that one river as far as the naval unit possibilities. Now, the final comment here: "So tell me, are you off your noodle or what??" ...is definitely an invitation to an argument and it's pretty darn personal. I don't know if you realize how that comes across, but I understand what Lensman was saying when he thought you wanted a flamewar. Whether you are right or not, you don't need to get so darned personal about it! I was on the receiving end of this kind of thing from you once and I know what I'm talking about here. You need to be a bit less touchy and take things in stride. You clearly know a LOT about the Civil War. Not everyone knows as much, which means that when you find some information that you know is erroneous, just correct it - there's no need to kill the messenger. Lensman clearly spoke up based on some really good contemporary knowledge he has about the Mississippi. I think the history of the ACW contradicts some of that info and you brought that up, but you shouldn't be bothered that someone disagrees with you. It's perfectly possible to share information and win people over without getting in an argument with them. There is an old saying about catching more flies with honey - it's true, you know. Regards, - Erik < Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 4/14/2007 7:55:23 PM > _____________________________ Erik Rutins Director of Product Development and Business Relations You know Eric, I put up with this guy telling me that I didn't know what I was talking about, then you pop in in, not reading the whole thread that the self-righteous jerk that you are, so let me ask you the same thing: Are you off your noodle?? Lensman's knowledge only concerns TODAY and the UPPER MISS> RIVER IN IOWA and NOT THE MID AND LOWER MISS. RIVER of ACW TIMES. Plus, I gave some faactual scientific info. and further Geologic info., but neither of you two clowns being a Geologist you wouldn't have the faintest idea of what is going on with the Miss. River. You do this all the time and are a complete yo-yo. And go take a hike, a long one. Because as another person said somewhere, this if 'The Forge of Frustration'. I wouldn't submit any modifications I do to your screwy Guns.txt file for your persual because you don't know your buttocks from a whole in the ground concerning the subject to begin with. You try and twist things like the used car salesman you must be. Good riddance, this is a complete waste of time, Chris

TheHellPatrol -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/15/2007 8:54:02 AM)
I was always rather fond of a cheese sandwich[sm=scared0018.gif]

Gray_Lensman -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/15/2007 11:34:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol I was always rather fond of a cheese sandwich[sm=scared0018.gif] ROFLMAO Imagine what history would have been like if some of the congressmen back in the 1860's would have just comtemplated the fond memory of a cheese sandwich...[:D]

Widell -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/15/2007 1:25:30 PM)
quote: ...the self-righteous jerk that you are, so let me ask you the same thing: Are you off your noodle?? ...neither of you two clowns being a Geologist... ....go take a hike, a long one.... ...you don't know your buttocks from a whole in the ground... ....like the used car salesman you must be..... Here's a link to some truly entertaining attempts to insult. Let's not go there at these forums [:-]

Greyhunterlp -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/15/2007 2:17:09 PM)
Ah The internet. Where people fly off the handle over the littlest thing. This is What the second world war would have been like if it had been an RTS. http://www.strategypage.com/humor/articles/military_jokes_20057151.asp Thank god we live in the Real World.

Erik Rutins -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/15/2007 4:16:37 PM)
Chris, quote: ORIGINAL: christof139 You know Eric, I put up with this guy telling me that I didn't know what I was talking about, then you pop in in, not reading the whole thread that the self-righteous jerk that you are, so let me ask you the same thing: Are you off your noodle?? I read the whole thread and I agreed with you, but this apparently went over your head. I disagreed with your way of presenting your information, which as usual was more argumentative than necessary. quote: Lensman's knowledge only concerns TODAY and the UPPER MISS> RIVER IN IOWA and NOT THE MID AND LOWER MISS. RIVER of ACW TIMES. Plus, I gave some faactual scientific info. and further Geologic info., but neither of you two clowns being a Geologist you wouldn't have the faintest idea of what is going on with the Miss. River. Except that I agreed with you on the facts, but again you somehow missed that part. quote: You do this all the time and are a complete yo-yo. And go take a hike, a long one. Because as another person said somewhere, this if 'The Forge of Frustration'. I wouldn't submit any modifications I do to your screwy Guns.txt file for your persual because you don't know your buttocks from a whole in the ground concerning the subject to begin with. You try and twist things like the used car salesman you must be. Good riddance, this is a complete waste of time, Chris And here's where you prove my point, again and again and again. Do what you want, but at this point I have to give you a formal warning. Keep this up and you'll join the handful of people that have ever been banned from these forums. If you don't understand how to disagree without insulting people, then you really have no place here. Regards, - Erik

General Quarters -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/15/2007 6:32:33 PM)
Although 90-plus percent of Christof's post are informative and substantive and make a real contribution, he has a tendency, which he not only cannot control but refuses to recognize, to insult others. When someone points this out to him, he often insults them, no matter how courteous and reasonable their tone. I for one would not mind seeing him banned from this forum. I can find informative and substantive information in lots of other places where I don't have to watch people being insulted and being drawn into flame wars.

Gil R. -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/15/2007 7:23:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Grey Hunter Ah The internet. Where people fly off the handle over the littlest thing. This is What the second world war would have been like if it had been an RTS. http://www.strategypage.com/humor/articles/military_jokes_20057151.asp Thank god we live in the Real World. Brilliant. I have forwarded that link to friends -- the highest honor I can give a link.

Taipan61 -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/18/2007 5:17:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol I was always rather fond of a cheese sandwich[sm=scared0018.gif] With a slap of chutney..wonderfull Hovering my finger over the "buy" button at the moment, and a small but important question for me. Looking at the screen shots I can't see an example of the "classic" counter style. Is there an option to switch to a counter style graphic representation for the units?

Erik Rutins -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/18/2007 5:23:00 PM)
Do you mean in detailed battles, switching from the chit symbol-like counters to counters that show men marching and shooting? If so, the answer is yes, though you want to have a decent amount of RAM for that.

Taipan61 -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/18/2007 5:50:48 PM)
<grin>..Better clarify, eh ? In the five screen shots which show hex representation, all the shots show "men" and not the chit symbol type counters within the hex. Is there an graphic option for these "men" to be replaced with chit symbols?

ericbabe -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/18/2007 5:52:50 PM)
Yes, the men icons in detailed combat can be replaced with NATO symbols during game play by pressing the '+' key. I don't have a screenshot of this handy, but maybe if someone else does he could post it.

Taipan61 -> RE: Questions before purchase (4/18/2007 6:05:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ericbabe Yes, the men icons in detailed combat can be replaced with NATO symbols during game play by pressing the '+' key. I don't have a screenshot of this handy, but maybe if someone else does he could post it. Cheers. Your word is good enough :) Just have never been able to like the toy soldier represenation graphics in these style games. I seem to grasp the situation much more easily with NATO chit symbols.

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