General Modding (Full Version)

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Mithel -> General Modding (4/25/2007 7:38:45 PM)

I've read the forums a bit and it looks like most of the modding is graphics. There is some mention that the core rules aren't intended to be modded. My mods of "Hearts of Iron" (and it's sequels) virtually rebuilt the game completely (extensive changes to the combat system). I've done a lot of research of WW2 economics and production and that is a favorite area of interest to me. Can anyone tell me if there is reasonably opportunity to mod the economics, production and supply aspects? (I'm considering purchasing AWD)



WanderingHead -> RE: General Modding (4/25/2007 8:39:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mithel
I've read the forums a bit and it looks like most of the modding is graphics. There is some mention that the core rules aren't intended to be modded. My mods of "Hearts of Iron" (and it's sequels) virtually rebuilt the game completely (extensive changes to the combat system). I've done a lot of research of WW2 economics and production and that is a favorite area of interest to me. Can anyone tell me if there is reasonably opportunity to mod the economics, production and supply aspects? (I'm considering purchasing AWD)


I have a mod that will go public after the patch that has nothing to do with graphics.

I would say that more is mod-able with the upcoming patch, but also much more could reasonably be mod-able. I focused on adding mod-ability for things that were mentioned by others and for things that I was personally interested in.

Economics ... well, production is mod-able. You can move factories around, and you can adjust the "Factory Multiplier" (how many production points a factory produces, which is controlled by Nation). You can adjust a "non-military resource consumption", an abstraction of resources being consumed for consumer (non military) goods. You can adjust the cost of units (which is controlled by Player [a Player includes one or more Nations]).

There is only one kind of natural resource, just called resources.

In this patch, I put some mod-ability of sea transport capacity rules, which allows enhanced value for ports and a simple interdiction model. But there isn't really much you can do to change supply rules.

Also, I focused on making the "random Political Events" (things like coups, border wars that are outside of Player control, etc) to be completely mod-able. Recently I've been thinking that I should add some of the other hardcoded political events (lower case here) like French surrender and Italian surrender to this mod-ability (I pretty quickly came up with a motivation to change the French surrender rules, but too late for this patch). Still, the mod-able random Political Events actually gives a lot of leeway to do things. I found it easy to add little things like Portugal leasing the Azores to Britain, Spain responding to an invasion of Portugal, etc.

There is a tiny amount of modding one can do to the Suppression component of the combat system, but in general the combat system and the core rules of the game are not mod-able.

To be honest, I think that the game is not hugely mod-able, I don't know that it would satisfy your apparent wishes. But outside of the core rules, some amount of reasonable mod-support can be added as long as 2by3 continues to allow me to do it, there is sufficient interest, and it looks doable without too much risk of breaking things.

Still, it is worth trying the game, it's a good one :).



Mithel -> RE: General Modding (4/25/2007 8:54:20 PM)

So far AWD sounds better than HoI even though it may be simpler in many respects.

Can the start date of the campaign be modded?  I'd like to start in March 1938.

I'd also really like to have about a half dozen or more resources.

Since I don't know how production works... What sort of production limitations are there?  One *huge* flaw in HoI is the ability to instantly switch from building aircraft to building armor for example. A big factor to improving realism is having limitations that force ramping up of production and not just being able to switch your full production instantly from one item to another.

Thanks, yes, when I get home I plan to buy and download it to start exploring it in detail.  But until I get home it's interesting to try and gather a little more info here.

Not related to production or economics: Is there any "stacking limitation" for the provinces?  A big problem in HoI is no limitation to force sizes in key locations like Gibraltar or Malta.  Gibraltar is physically a tiny area and literally could *not* have dozens of divisions stationed there.



WanderingHead -> RE: General Modding (4/25/2007 9:05:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mithel
So far AWD sounds better than HoI even though it may be simpler in many respects.

Can the start date of the campaign be modded?  I'd like to start in March 1938.


Yes, although it might be difficult to get the game to work well with that start date. Politics are very simple in the game. I think they are simple, but very nicely elegant and they get the job done for the intended game design ... which doesn't include 1938.

But you can try (and I think that the mod-able political events I like to hype would help :) ).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mithel
I'd also really like to have about a half dozen or more resources.


One of the primary foci of my mod is Oil. Yes, adding/removing/moving resources is possible. Also, I put factories in some regions with zero population, which means they can build supplies but no units. These represent historical oil refining capabilities in Trans-Jordan and the DEI.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mithel
Since I don't know how production works... What sort of production limitations are there?  One *huge* flaw in HoI is the ability to instantly switch from building aircraft to building armor for example. A big factor to improving realism is having limitations that force ramping up of production and not just being able to switch your full production instantly from one item to another.


It takes several turns (depending on unit type) to complete a unit. So you cannot instantly have anything (except supplies or militia). But you can instantly change production from one thing to another (stop armor that is 2 turns along and start a new BB).

There are restrictions by Nation as to what units can be produced, e.g. Italy cannot produce Armor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mithel
Not related to production or economics: Is there any "stacking limitation" for the provinces?  A big problem in HoI is no limitation to force sizes in key locations like Gibraltar or Malta.  Gibraltar is physically a tiny area and literally could *not* have dozens of divisions stationed there.


There is no stacking limit. However, one is not able to attack Spain from Gibraltar (the converse is possible, of course), representing the infeasibility of staging such an invasion from that little rock. Because of this, and because amphib invasions are quite difficult, you rarely actually see an inordinate stack in Gibraltar.



Mithel -> RE: General Modding (4/25/2007 9:23:18 PM)

Thank you!  This is very helpful. (if for no other reason than for managing my expectations of AWD)

Ok, follow up dumb question: Does holding Gibraltar prevent your opponents from passing their naval forces from the Atlantic to the Med and back?  The problem in HoI is the Brits can put several divisions in Gibraltar and likewise the Axis can attack with numerous divisions so this can escalate to a MAJOR conflict when in reality even though it is a critically important location the size of the forces involved could never have become large. (and such issues crop up in other places of the world too)

If I'm understanding you correctly you are abstracting "oil" by creating supplies in areas that have no other useful production ability?

So "resources" cover everything (coal, oil, iron, etc) so it doesn't matter which resources you conquer, your production ability still increases?  Thus conquering French iron mines is equivalent to capturing Polish coal?

For a March 1938 start date - is it possible to not have Germany at war with any other nation?  Or are you forced into Germany being at war at the start of a campaign?

Simple isn't necessarily bad.  Simple but working is much better than complex and hopelessly broken.

{sigh} I should probably be posting more general questions in a different location.




WanderingHead -> RE: General Modding (4/25/2007 9:34:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mithel
Ok, follow up dumb question: Does holding Gibraltar prevent your opponents from passing their naval forces from the Atlantic to the Med and back? 


Yes, putting some air or artillery in Gib will prevent passage because they op-fire on units moving through narrows.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mithel
The problem in HoI is the Brits can put several divisions in Gibraltar and likewise the Axis can attack with numerous divisions so this can escalate to a MAJOR conflict when in reality even though it is a critically important location the size of the forces involved could never have become large. (and such issues crop up in other places of the world too)


Well, this doesn't exactly happen because of the scale (3 month turn). If Gib looks weak, the German may amphib invade. But in general it is so difficult to do an amphibious assault that the German will likely leave Gib alone (until he sees weakness, or unless Spain joins him and makes it a cakewalk).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mithel

If I'm understanding you correctly you are abstracting "oil" by creating supplies in areas that have no other useful production ability?


I put factories in places that model historical oil refineries. That's all. They can produce supplies (there is only one kind of "supplies", it is an aggregate, like resources include multiple kinds of resources)..

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mithel

So "resources" cover everything (coal, oil, iron, etc) so it doesn't matter which resources you conquer, your production ability still increases?  Thus conquering French iron mines is equivalent to capturing Polish coal?


Correct.

Personally, I would like to see the game have two kinds of resources: "oil", and "everything else" (or "energy" and "raw materials", as it were). But alas it is not so.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mithel
For a March 1938 start date - is it possible to not have Germany at war with any other nation?  Or are you forced into Germany being at war at the start of a campaign?


I think you could do it. It might be a challenge to get it to work well, but I don't see any reason off the bat that it couldn't be made to work.

The game does focus on war, not diplomacy, so the first years of a 1938 start game might be rather boring to play. but you can try and see.



Mithel -> RE: General Modding (4/25/2007 9:35:06 PM)

Is there any way to implement (mod) development of resources? Example: some third world province has raw materials but they aren't being exploited, thus when you initially capture that province the resources are zero but by "investing" in that province you can increase resource production.  Note: for this to work in a simplistic system like this describes means that it should not be possible to develop resources in your home country.



WanderingHead -> RE: General Modding (4/25/2007 9:41:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mithel
Is there any way to implement (mod) development of resources? Example: some third world province has raw materials but they aren't being exploited, thus when you initially capture that province the resources are zero but by "investing" in that province you can increase resource production.  Note: for this to work in a simplistic system like this describes means that it should not be possible to develop resources in your home country.


Indeed, this is something I have wanted to have for oil exploitation.

There are two ways to do this, and it is rather limited and doesn't have the "feel" of something that was designed in (because it wasn't :) ).

1) resources can start the game "damaged" (damage can happen from bombing or capture of territory). This isn't very effective for what you want because at the cost of 10 supplies the resources can be instantly repaired. You would want to have the "repair" be delayed to model exploration, etc.

2) you cannot in general build resources in factories because you cannot START building them. However, in the scenario design you can place resources in the factory production queue at game start. In this way, the factory is consuming resources and production points to progress these new "resource centers" to completion, and you can make the delay (and hence cost [production costs are directly proportional to delay in GGWAW:AWD]) whatever you want.

This latter concept sort of works well, except that then you can only put these potential new resource centers into regions with factories. Which is pretty much not where you want them.

So, the answer is: there are a couple of ways to try it, but neither is likely to satisfy you.



Mithel -> RE: General Modding (4/25/2007 9:44:31 PM)

The point of starting in 1938 is to allow players to engage in diplomacy, and customize their nation via research and production. Thus Germany might choose to not build as much armor as they did historically or perhaps they would emphasize submarine production more pre-war, etc.  With three month turns an earlier start becomes even more important as there are not enough turns to the war otherwise. With a historical Sept 1939 start date you're only talking about two dozen turns or so for an entire game!  My preference is for hundreds of turns - at the very least monthly turns.

Thanks, that is very helpful to know that Gibraltar does have some importance!

I love a detailed economic system.  I'd prefer like a couple dozen "critical" raw materials.  But at the least I'd want: Coal, Iron, Oil, Food, Rubber, Bauxite, Tungsten.  HoI does ok by lumping "everything else" in as "rare" but their major lack is not having any representation of agriculture.

{grin} I like challenges.  The amount of work I put into fixing up HoI & HoI2 is staggering.



Mithel -> RE: General Modding (4/25/2007 9:50:37 PM)

Well the damaged resources concept is better than nothing!

{sigh} Yes, clearly my desire for complex and realistic economics isn't going to be satisfied.  But AWD could still be an amusing game to pass a bit of time with.



WanderingHead -> RE: General Modding (4/25/2007 10:04:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mithel
Well the damaged resources concept is better than nothing!

{sigh} Yes, clearly my desire for complex and realistic economics isn't going to be satisfied.  But AWD could still be an amusing game to pass a bit of time with.


Look at Making History: The Calm and the Storm (google it).

I don't own it, and from what I have seen it has its own limitations. But it does have multiple kinds of resources and more sophisticated diplomacy, with 1 week turns.

It doesn't sound like my cup of tea, but it sounds good for you.



Mithel -> RE: General Modding (4/25/2007 10:10:53 PM)

Very Interesting!  Thank you!  I will definitely check out "The Calm and the Storm".  Why doesn't it appeal to you?



WanderingHead -> RE: General Modding (4/25/2007 10:23:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mithel
Very Interesting!  Thank you!  I will definitely check out "The Calm and the Storm".  Why doesn't it appeal to you?


I think I would like 2 month turns, 2 kinds of resources (energy and raw materials), and 2 kinds of supplies (energy and parts). I could see adding about 2 units to AWD (e.g. perhaps shore batteries and amphib assault vehicles), but not much more.

I don't want more detail than that. I want a PBEM game to end in less than a month (assume daily turn exchange).

For weekly turns, how much does your strategy actually change from turn to turn? I played the demo, and every turn I just kept following through on what I did last turn. I felt like it was all about following through, mostly on autopilot, and much less about the real strategic decisions.

Also, from what I read on the TCatS forums there is not a good model of ocean transport. It seems like a real hole in the system.



Mithel -> RE: General Modding (4/25/2007 10:46:22 PM)

Have you ever tried "Hearts of Iron" (or HoI2 or Doomsday - the sequels)?  I don't recommend it and it probably would not interest you from what you've said. HoI technically runs in turns of one hour (but it's real time with an hour taking only about one second).

I love detail.  How long does a turn of AWD take to do?  If I'm exchanging a turn a day and the game is going to be over in less than a month I want to be putting in more than five minutes to do each turn.  I like to ponder my strategy and tune all aspects of my economy.  And I even like to have some combat tactics involved.  With a three month turn combat has to be extremely abstract.

It's not so much that "strategy" changes from week to week.  But managing production, diplomacy, research, etc can keep you very busy from "week" to "week".  I don't like "real time" (hence one reason I don't like HoI), but I want an immersive game that I can play for months and get very deep into it.  Anything that is potentially over in one night is too short for me.  So a live connection game of AWD running turns every 15 minutes would mean a very short game to me and no real time to ponder and enjoy it.

Ocean transport can be a real problem. (It's difficult to abstract realistically and have both realism and ease of play)

"Making History" (The Calm and The Storm) looks very interesting but I'm sure they have many bugs and issues (just reading the forums makes it clear there is lots of room for improvement).  But that doesn't surprise me, I've been working on designing my own WW2 simulation for many years.  And even if I do get to the point of serious development, even with full time working on it the amount of work to do is staggering and I could see it being a lifelong project of constantly adding features and improving it.




WanderingHead -> RE: General Modding (4/25/2007 11:03:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mithel

Have you ever tried "Hearts of Iron" (or HoI2 or Doomsday - the sequels)?  I don't recommend it and it probably would not interest you from what you've said. HoI technically runs in turns of one hour (but it's real time with an hour taking only about one second).


No, and I know that I'm not interested :).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mithel
I love detail.  How long does a turn of AWD take to do?  If I'm exchanging a turn a day and the game is going to be over in less than a month I want to be putting in more than five minutes to do each turn.  I like to ponder my strategy and tune all aspects of my economy.  And I even like to have some combat tactics involved.  With a three month turn combat has to be extremely abstract.


Yep, fairly abstract.

Time to play depends on which Player (Germany [including minors], Japan, USSR, China, Western Allies [including Britain, USA, Commonwealth]) and which individual is playing. Personally, it generally takes me about an hour a turn once immersed in the game (the first years go faster). Doing the WA takes me longer than other Players because of sheer quantity of stuff to consider. China takes almost no time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mithel

It's not so much that "strategy" changes from week to week.  But managing production, diplomacy, research, etc can keep you very busy from "week" to "week".  I don't like "real time" (hence one reason I don't like HoI), but I want an immersive game that I can play for months and get very deep into it. 


Yep, to each his own. I want the games to conclude. I don't even like that it takes a month, but it is an unavoidable consequence of having a satisfactory level of detail (plus the limitations of PBEM).



JanSorensen -> RE: General Modding (4/25/2007 11:28:51 PM)

In my opinion the beauty of AWD is that you actually make decisions most of the time when you are playing.

In some games with lots of detail it takes you a few minutes to make your actual decisions but hours to carry out the bean counting and book keeping that goes into implementing them with the process being pretty boring.

In AWD I spent very little time doing boring chores and instead spent most my time making decisions that actually matter. Does this area warrent an extra INF? Do I attack that area or that area first? Is it worth reparing that rail line or am I better off using the supply to move these units or fly these planes?

If no decisions are needed (which is rare in the overall picture but certainly happens) then a turn can be played in 5 mins because there are no "chores" to be done. If a lot of decisions are to be made then a turn can take 1 or even 2 hours to play.

So, if you like endlessly adjusting tiny parts with no actual thinking involved for the sake of immersion then AWD isnt for you. On the other hand if you like a game where each unit actually matters and may lead to agonising decisions (combat, supply, production, research) then AWD might just be for you.

Mind, some of the more interesting decisions might not even occur to you until you get some real experience with the game - in particular once you start playing PBEM.



Mithel -> RE: General Modding (4/26/2007 12:03:36 AM)

Many different forms of games can be enjoyable and for different reasons. AWD sounds very "fun". But it sounds like it falls short of being the accurate historical simulation that I've been looking for (and not finding). I may buy AWD and enjoy it if my friends also take an interest in it. At the moment I find myself wishing there was a demo to try.

If a turn can take one to two hours that sounds very good.

We don't want the "chores" but at least I would like the detail. I want the strategy that only comes from having to make decisions like "There is no point to making more panzer divisions unless I capture Baku and gain the oil there."

I've downloaded the Making History (The Calm and The Storm) demo and I'll give that a try now.

Thanks for all the comments! I really appreciate the information you've provided.




GKar -> RE: General Modding (4/30/2007 10:26:56 AM)

Hi Mithel,
nice to see you around here! [:)]

If you're still thinking about getting into AWD or not, make sure to read this topic where I tried to make a comparison with HoI/DD.



Mithel -> RE: General Modding (4/30/2007 3:43:55 PM)

GKar, nice to see you here too.  I just responded on the other thread.

Yes, I think I will get AWD, but I suspect most of my time and attention will be on "Making History".



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