RE: Still having with new patch not working (Full Version)

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David Winter -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/5/2007 8:30:29 AM)

quote:

So yeah, at some point the game has to finalize and stop adding and changing features.

BUT- we must have certain features for online, multiplayer leagues. We need that sim engine, we need H2H play, and possibly we need GM/financials.

I for one, bought this game hoping to play football in an online league, and am waiting patiently for that to become a reality


Scott

Maximum-Football is a 3D football game. The quick sim feature is not the core game play method and others have mentioned this. It's always been advertised as a 3D game for on field game play. I did not set out to build a text sim with a 3D option, I set out to build a 3D game that allows you to play with multiple rules.

quote:

Most people, at this point, want the sim engine fixed, ie.. give accurate results, based on how a 3-D game plays out.


They are two completely different games. The 3D game is based on real time game play. The game has no idea what the result of the particular play is until the play is over. The quick sim is precalculated results based on a look up table. They will always provide different results. When the quick sim feature was originally built, the it was deamed to be 'good enough' because the 3D game is the target game play style. But as you've noted, many consumers would like the quick sim game to better match the 3D game. That's fine, but to do that changes need to be made. There is a lot of work involved.

All those features you mention above are being looked into because people are asking for them, but I'm afraid they're not going to be in version 1 of the game. Online H2H play, the new simulation method being based off the 3D game, GM features, etc. are not going to be in version 1. They're simply too large an undertaking so I'm looking at them for version 2.

Some subtle changes and improvements to the quick sim feature are being investigated for the next update to version 1, but I'd like it to be understood that it's not going to be the change to the 3D game based quick sim.

thanks



Scott_WAR -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/5/2007 10:38:37 AM)

By version 2, do you mean an entirely new game that we will need to buy? If so, I would like to make some suggestions.



garysorrell -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/5/2007 3:58:57 PM)

quote:

All those features you mention above are being looked into because people are asking for them, but I'm afraid they're not going to be in version 1 of the game. Online H2H play, the new simulation method being based off the 3D game, GM features, etc. are not going to be in version 1. They're simply too large an undertaking so I'm looking at them for version 2.


Excellent. Thats what I was wanting to hear. This allows me to settle in and play.



David Winter -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/5/2007 8:31:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

By version 2, do you mean an entirely new game that we will need to buy? If so, I would like to make some suggestions.



Hi,

I'm not sure would not call it an entirely new game in that it will not use a brand new stream of source code. Very rarely do new versions of the same title start from 100% scratch.

But to your point, these features will not be a in free update.

Please post your suggestions. I go through the suggestions/wishlist category of this forum quite often .

thanks
David



Scott_WAR -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/5/2007 9:54:18 PM)

What I have been wanting is online, multiplayer league play. Have it so that the commish sets up the league, with a file created to export to each human controlled player. If humans control Seattle, Atlanta then two files will be created, one to send to Atlantas owner, and one to send to Seattles owner. This file will only allow them to manipulate their own team, and nothing else. Using this file, and the commish's IP, the owners will connect to the commishes PC for the draft. After the draft, players may run thier own training camp, and make roster cuts, set up their depth charts, and create their playbook. Parameters will be in the league file that is created initialy. Once this is all done, all members of the league e-mail back the league/team file, the commish imports them and the game sets up week 1 games. Human controlled teams can schedule a game time. Home team hosts, visiting team connects to home teams PC via IP. The game is played (coach mode), the games records the results, and a file is exported. BOTH teams mail in their league/team files after the game, and the commish imports that into the league. AI controlled teams sim results (needs to match stats from played games).


I never was able to play any of the front page sports/football pro games, so I dont know if this is how they managed online leagues, and I am guessing they may have had an even better system than the one I envision here. If so, please steal those ideas. But, my main reason for buying this game, and any future football games is online, multiplayer league play.



garysorrell -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/5/2007 10:02:01 PM)

Out of curiosity, I ran 5 season with a 6 team league, default 11 man playbook.
12min qtrs, CFL field.

Mainly, I wanted to see how the AI handled teams with the current sim engine.

As you can see from the pic, A few teams were perennial losers...at least over 5 seasons.

I mainly was curious if the AI could take a bad team and make it good.


[image]local://upfiles/15334/22BD94B040F14D89AB01651326BD8553.jpg[/image]



garysorrell -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/5/2007 10:04:22 PM)

Team6 was bad thru 5 seasons, Team4 was up and down. Teams 1 and 2 were good most of the time.

I will likely go thru 10 seasons, and see if Team6 can get good.



redwolf1 -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/6/2007 1:26:14 AM)

Suddenly mixed feelings now...it looks like this version of maximum football may not meet my hopes. I do appreciate all the work that is being done and has be done on the title, and can understand pushing various new features to a version 2. But at the same time I can't say that I'm not a little bit dissappointed to hear the news. I was hoping that a new sim engine (quasi 3D engine minus the graphics) would get done for this version.[:(]

I was also hoping that player breakdowns by position would get into this version (eg. LT, ROLB, etc.) - maybe they still are planned for version 1(???) - I really do hope so.

Since the new sim engine (as described above) won't be in version 1, I am really finding myself desiring subbing with the current sim engine. Without AI subs, sims are even less meaningful which translates to league play being even less meaningful (unless of course every single game by every single team in the league is played out) which translates to me as the game not being very desirable to play anymore. I'd like to be able to enjoy coaching my games within a meaningful league, rather than simply enjoying the game playing random 3-D match-ups.

Kudos for David for contining his dedication to the game [:)], it will end up being a fantastic title in the end, I'm sure...just not for me yet...





David Winter -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/6/2007 1:44:39 AM)

quote:

I was also hoping that player breakdowns by position would get into this version (eg. LT, ROLB, etc.) - maybe they still are planned for version 1(???) - I really do hope so.


That's still planned for version 1. The work is already completed. That plan had never changed.

Please understand that the amount of work involved in these features is emense. The game has already had a number of user requested features added that were never originally intended to be there. Basically, new features at no extra cost.

quote:

Since the new sim engine (as described above) won't be in version 1, I am really finding myself desiring subbing with the current sim engine.


Even with the new engine, there's not going to be anything to see as far as subs go. There is no on screen indication as to whether or not a player was not on the field for a particular play. It's going to be a screen layout reasonably similar to what's there now. The quick sim feature was intended to rapidly generate some stats to fill in data for the games the user didn't want to play in 3D.

I really don't understand why people are saying that they can't play the game without these. The 3D game has been pretty solid for a long time. Myself and others find it a lot of fun to build plays and get on the field and play the game. The quck sim feature isn't even a feature I mention on the game's official pages.

thanks
David



Scott_WAR -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/6/2007 1:59:27 AM)

I think its because a LOT of people wanted a replacement for FBpro 98 and its league capabilities. Along with the 3-d game. I think many people are still holding onto the hope that this game will eventually do that, which its now obvious wont happen.

  Anyway, what about my ideas above.............. I am not sure, but I suspect that what i am looking for is what a lot of people wanted................................. a way to play in a league with other people, including playing games H2H. Is that going to be a possibility in the next version?  Or maybe a Online League expansion for this game.




David Winter -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/6/2007 2:07:37 AM)

Online leagues require online game play. Which is a development challenge beyond anything else I will be working on. It's also very expensive. That said, I've already stated that the game can not possibly grow without an online game play experience. So yes, it's high on the to do list.

I believe FBPro online leagues were mostly 'email' leagues (that evolved over time depending on the version of the game the league used). The commish would send a player current league files, the player would play their game, and send the output files back to the commish. Maximum-Football can do the same thing.

I'd also like to remind everyone that this is the first version of the game. There needs to be a feature set to start with. Something that is buildable. As the game was intended to be a 3D game allowing multirule play with the ability to design your own plays, that's what I built.



garysorrell -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/6/2007 2:48:51 AM)

There were 2 main types of FBPro leagues.

1.)H2H-Players hooked up via WON or KALI and played head to head(real time)

2.)PPP leagues-Players made plays, gameplans and profiles, sent them to the commish and he simmed the games.

There were leagues where one of the participants would play out the game and send results to the commish. Dont think they were popular though, due to cheating.


And team6 from my above test went 5-5 in season 8 and made the playoff...lost sadly



David Winter -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/6/2007 2:58:51 AM)

Yes, I would imagine there would be a lot of cheating with the email style leagues.



dreamtheatervt -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/8/2007 8:54:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: garysorrell

[image]local://upfiles/15334/22BD94B040F14D89AB01651326BD8553.jpg[/image]


I don't want to jump to conclusions based on your small sample size and short period of observation, but it looks like parity quickly took foot in your league, as the last two years the best teams were 6-4, and your worst team was 3-7. Year 3 also shows a similar trend, with the worst team being 4-6.

I'm not suggesting you do it, but 18 teams over 15 years would be an interesting experiment, should be enough teams and long enough time to determine if there is an overall trend for teams to hover around the .500 mark.



garysorrell -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/8/2007 2:28:40 PM)

true. I may try that this weekend. I did sim thru 10 seasons, and overall, there was some good movement of teams. The second 5 seasons were similar to the first.




Marauders -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/12/2007 7:56:20 PM)

I would just like to note here that many features have been added to Maximum-Football from its original plan.  Many of these features have been added after being on the wishlist or pushed by the community or beta team.  David has worked very hard to get features in, and he wants to get more features in for future updates and versions of the game.

At this point, the game needs a feature lockdown point, and that will come with 1.5.  Some new things will be in 1.5, but head to head online play and the sim system based on the 3D engine will not make it.  There just is not enough resources to get all that done in version 1.x, and I am sure that most of the Maximum-Football community will agree that a clean feature locked build is important.  This will allow some other things like the sim engine to be better tweaked as well.

Consider that Front Page Sports Football took a few years to become FBPro, and Madden didn't start with a 3D engine.  It takes time to add features, and it takes community support.  Maximum-Football has come a long way, and I hope it can go much further in the future.



Marauders -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/12/2007 9:50:31 PM)

quote:

The voting reflects a desire for the user to be able to, when simming a game, to use the game's "on-field" engine (or 3-D engine, if you want) but without the graphics (a la FBPro). The main reason is to get stats on par with, and completely and directly comparable to, non-simmed games. I don't think you can conclude that most users want to ultimately sim their games. I believe the majority are probably like me - those that want to actually coach their team's games using the "on-field" engine, and sim many or most of the rest of the teams in the league's games, but have generated stats directly comparable. That's why I voted for the new sim engine (and I am sure many did as well).

I agree with this.  Changing the sim engine to a 3D based engine is a high priority with the Maximum-Football community.  As I recall, this was similar to how David had planned the sim engine to work in the first place, but it did not speed things up as quickly as some people would have liked. 
I didn't agree with going to an artificial sim engine at that time, but that is what is in the game now.  It will not be changed to the 3D sim in 1.5, as there is not time to do so, but some tweaks are being considered to make the current sim engine more comparable to the 3D game stats.
quote:

Im not criticizing anyone here either. Scott_WAR and elmerlee are absolutely within their rights as purchasers to speak up.

Of course.  Feedback is important.
quote:

However, I will admit to being a bit tired of wondering when I can relax and just start playing.
I would really like to see David at some point just say "Thats it, the game is on feature lockdown. New graphics engine, new sim engine, vista fixes...thats it" Then squash whatever bugs are there and start looking toward an expansion/add-on, or a version 2, for whatever direction he wants to take the game in.

That has been a huge topic in the private development board.  Release 1.3 was to be considered as a lock down point feature wise, but community depth charts suggestions and Microsoft complications relating to Vista and DirectX support forced David to make changes that will become Release 1.5.  That is the new target for the lock, and some features that community members are asking for will not make it in.  It is really the trade off that has to be made to have a clean build.
quote:

I think gary hit on EXACTLY what is troubling me..... I have started and stopped work on a few things, because future updates that are planned is going to change the game, and I dont want to do a lot of work just to have to start over again next update. So yeah, at some point the game has to finalize and stop adding and changing features.

I hear you.  I have updated formations and plays many times.  I have put a hold on things because small changes have been made that put a player out of alignment or defensive plays have added features.   That is why a lock down is important; we need to be able to just get on with playing the game.
quote:

BUT- we must have certain features for online, multiplayer leagues. We need that sim engine, we need H2H play, and possibly we need GM/financials.

Please continue to ask for these as wish list items.  David has been responsive to feedback and input.



garysorrell -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/12/2007 9:50:57 PM)

Thanks for the comments Marauders.

Im happy with MaxFB as is, just looking to see all bugs squashed and it running smooth.

I hope all would agree that MaxFB is far more feature rich than any other PC football game, and is that way because of Davids original vision and willingness to listen to users and actually give us what we ask for, when reasonable of course.
If my memory serves me, David originally planned to make a game that allowed us to play games with a variety of rulesets. All the Career mode, quick sim stuff came about because we hounded him relentlessly :-)

That being said, Im easily getting my moneys worth out of Max, and will gladly pay for a ver 2.

Go play an old version of Madden or one of the early FBPros......I had them, they were far from what they became.



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