very frustrating issue (Full Version)

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fcam1387 -> very frustrating issue (5/8/2007 12:41:08 PM)

I have tried to implement a fighter training program as the Japs in Hanoi. I have hundreds of fighters set to bomb a Chinese infantry group 2 hexes away. So they don't become sitting ducks I have a couple of sqaudrons of Oscars set to "escort" to that particular hex. The only problem is that they never do so. Every couple of weeks my opponent sends in around 20 or so P40s and they absolutely wreak havoc on my units. The result is almost always a massacre and it sets my training program back by several weeks - this is becoming quite painful for me.

As a matter of fact, this problem doesn't just concern my fighter training units in Hanoi, it has occurred elsewhere. On many occaisions, bombers have been sent in with escort fighter support - yet the escorts never turn up.

Will anyone please help me with this?



String -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/8/2007 12:45:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcam1387

I have tried to implement a fighter training program as the Japs in Hanoi. I have hundreds of fighters set to bomb a Chinese infantry group 2 hexes away. So they don't become sitting ducks I have a couple of sqaudrons of Oscars set to "escort" to that particular hex. The only problem is that they never do so. Every couple of weeks my opponent sends in around 20 or so P40s and they absolutely wreak havoc on my units. The result is almost always a massacre and it sets my training program back by several weeks - this is becoming quite painful for me.

As a matter of fact, this problem doesn't just concern my fighter training units in Hanoi, it has occurred elsewhere. On many occaisions, bombers have been sent in with escort fighter support - yet the escorts never turn up.

Will anyone please help me with this?


Train out of range from enemy LRCAP.



Mike Solli -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/8/2007 1:17:44 PM)

Have you tried to set the destination for the escorting Oscars to the target hex?



Rafael Warsaw -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/8/2007 1:30:53 PM)

The very same problem here. Lots of problems with this issue. It covers Japanese air strikes from Malaya/Burma and China and no matter the mission type (Air, port, ground or city). Its a general issue. Im playing BIG B.

a) Figters DO escort RECON planes first so they dont escort bombers later that turn. Hard to avoid but its possible.
b) It looks like that HQ designation might be a matter here. Probably Fighters flying from ie Southern command wont escort from restricted command airfield or wont escort restricted command (ie Chines) bombers.

Not sure though.






fcam1387 -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/8/2007 2:08:21 PM)

Hmm, I'll have to see about that, Rafael.

To the other two posters - yes, I do set the designation for the Oscar escorts. And there there are no other bases outside of Allied LRCAP because one can only train up to 55 exp for non-combat training missions.



String -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/8/2007 2:21:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcam1387

Hmm, I'll have to see about that, Rafael.

To the other two posters - yes, I do set the designation for the Oscar escorts. And there there are no other bases outside of Allied LRCAP because one can only train up to 55 exp for non-combat training missions.


Then you have to either assign more escorts, shut down the bases from where allied LRCAP can fly, switch training targets often and at random or just accept the fact that you cannot train freely in china anymore.



jwilkerson -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/8/2007 5:33:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: String

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcam1387

Hmm, I'll have to see about that, Rafael.

To the other two posters - yes, I do set the designation for the Oscar escorts. And there there are no other bases outside of Allied LRCAP because one can only train up to 55 exp for non-combat training missions.


Then you have to either assign more escorts, shut down the bases from where allied LRCAP can fly, switch training targets often and at random or just accept the fact that you cannot train freely in china anymore.


Training in China is a big subject. And a strategically important one. And by this I refer to the Japanese attempting to use China as a training environment.

In my game with Moses there is some "cat and mouse" in that Moses will occasionally fly some fighters forward and attempt to disrupt my training programs, and this has caused some slow down as I do now escort many of the training missions. But I've also varied my patterns more so that they are harder to predict. Once Moses gets better planes in China and more supply, he can, if he wants effectively shut down the training programs as we have no house rule to prevent that. And when he does so, it will certainly shorten the game, but that is the way it is. Or as Moses and I say YGTWWTAMYG (You Go To War With The Air Model You've Got).

I have played in games that had hosue rules that allowed continued Japanese training in China, in exchange for promises to behave. Not doing things like bombing cities or launching ground offensives, being among the behaviors. Essentially "truce" agreements that still allowed training. I also think AndyMac and PzB came to some kind of agreement regarding allowing Japan to continue training. So, if you want a promise of continued training, then try diplomacy. If you're still strong enough on the ground to offer an threat, then you have some negotiating power. Otherwise, prepare for the day when the effectiveness of your training programs in China approach zero. It is possible to train on dots or other enemy bases left in your rear, but the volume of aircraft that can train at these spots is considerably lower.
The other strategic aspect of China is bombing of Resources, etc. If your house rules allow it, the either side can bomb the others resources. As the Japanese, you could use threats of bombing Chinese resources as levereage to extract a training agreement. But if you ever lose control of the air in China, not only will your training programs suffer, but your own resources, etc. in China can be bombed down. So the Allies have a lot to gain by obtaining air superiority in China. They can shut down the training programs and shut down the resources, etc. Not too many areas on the map where they can do both of these. What stops them is supply. So, I do as much as I can to bomb in China as to reduce supply.

But this is a big, strategic topic and one that is very closely related to the outcome of the game.




mc3744 -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/8/2007 6:01:48 PM)

I think everybody has encountered the "ambush" problem while training.
Once my opponent (playing Japan) sent a KB to Northern Australia with the only purpose of ambushing my training squadrons ... he was very successful!! [:@] [;)]

The best way I found to train within LRCAP of enemy fighter is the night training.
I run airfield or port bombings missions at night. You score no kills of course and your planes will fly in a smaller number, but it's still quite effective.
You need to put leaders with high motivation value (patrol leaders work great) as the squadron won't fly at night below 50 morale.
If you happen to be ambushed by night fighters at most you'll loose a couple of planes.

High altitude fighters can avoid the problem by flying at maximum altitude, but it works only on airfield and port attacks. On ground attack they dive to 2k feet and you are RIP [:D]



fleetwood -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/8/2007 8:37:36 PM)

Just curious....how come the "training" order does not train units as fast as combat orders?



Rafael Warsaw -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/8/2007 8:45:56 PM)

It was a HQ issue for me.

I have switched HQ of my fighters to the same of my bobers and now they flight together.

Escorting recon not bombers is still an issiue but it can be handled other way...



Dino -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/8/2007 9:23:06 PM)

quote:

Escorting recon not bombers is still an issiue but it can be handled other way...


Could be wrong, but I think the animation is a glitch...they don't actually escort recon.



Dino -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/8/2007 9:26:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fleetwood

Just curious....how come the "training" order does not train units as fast as combat orders?


Well, you do get trained faster in combat...if you survive.



bradfordkay -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/9/2007 8:50:40 AM)

IIRC, the "Training" command will only improve the experience level if it is below 60. It will not train pilots to a higher exp level than 60. Can someone confirm this?



Scott_USN -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/9/2007 9:30:26 AM)

Wouldn't leaving a couple of allied bases in PI be just as good? hard to disrupt anything in that area. Or do you need to fight air-to-air?



pauk -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/9/2007 10:56:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

IIRC, the "Training" command will only improve the experience level if it is below 60. It will not train pilots to a higher exp level than 60. Can someone confirm this?


Yes



mc3744 -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/9/2007 11:13:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_USN
Wouldn't leaving a couple of allied bases in PI be just as good? hard to disrupt anything in that area.


And yes



AmiralLaurent -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/9/2007 5:38:14 PM)

I don't think bombing troops will increase your ability to dogfight or to drop torpedoes, but it did in WITP.

By the way, training with an experienced instructor should always be faster than combat experience, but in WITP training is much too slow. A given pilot will win 2-5 points of exp each month, up to 60. So training a pilot will take about 8-9 months to reach 60 from 30 (that is the point he will leave primary training schools and begin to fly real combat aircraft). The real time during the war was 5-6 months in US schools, that are supposed to produce pilots with exp 70...

On the other hand bombing troops has no limit and is far much faster (pilots will gain between 5 and 20 exp points a month depending of their current level and of the missions really flown). And it allows Japan to receive hundred of trained replacement pilots each month, enabling WITP to be even bloodier than it is already.

I myself use a mixture of both, using training up to 55 exp then ground attack to 65 and then declaring pilots operational. With this method training a pilot is taking 5-6 months, and I think this is OK.



BLurking -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/9/2007 6:24:43 PM)

One thing I've noticed (and may be wrong, BTW) is that if I set a given unit to Train, say 70%, and allow replacements just before disbanding into another unit, they come back with experience in the 40's, as opposed to the usual crap 30s I see.

Perhaps they're training during the 90 days prior to reactivation.

Or maybe it's just my lucky socks...



jwilkerson -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/9/2007 6:29:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

I don't think bombing troops will increase your ability to dogfight or to drop torpedoes, but it did in WITP.

By the way, training with an experienced instructor should always be faster than combat experience, but in WITP training is much too slow. A given pilot will win 2-5 points of exp each month, up to 60. So training a pilot will take about 8-9 months to reach 60 from 30 (that is the point he will leave primary training schools and begin to fly real combat aircraft). The real time during the war was 5-6 months in US schools, that are supposed to produce pilots with exp 70...

On the other hand bombing troops has no limit and is far much faster (pilots will gain between 5 and 20 exp points a month depending of their current level and of the missions really flown). And it allows Japan to receive hundred of trained replacement pilots each month, enabling WITP to be even bloodier than it is already.

I myself use a mixture of both, using training up to 55 exp then ground attack to 65 and then declaring pilots operational. With this method training a pilot is taking 5-6 months, and I think this is OK.


I used to use the "combination" method, letting like the fighters train up in Japan to about 50 before flying them over to China for "advanced" training. But then someone pointed out the pilots could go from exp 25 to exp 50 in just a few missions of actual ground support, so I've switched over to "advanced" training as soon as possible. Bottlenecks still are available space at the "advanced" training airbases and additional losses of pilots and planes flying the "noobees" over to the advanced bases and also in their first few missions, but we have "unlimited" numbers of noobee pilots and can usually aford to loose the planes, so for now this seems the faster approach. So real bottleneck with the "everyone trains at the front" is the availability of space at the training bases and so I still might use rear bases for EXP 25 to EXP 50 if I don't have room. And of course if house rules don't prevent the "supply transport training" trick, then that is good method for planes that can carry supply. Biggest problem is with the NF types which don't have GS mission. But then NF don't have much to do in most games.



jwilkerson -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/9/2007 6:31:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BLurking

One thing I've noticed (and may be wrong, BTW) is that if I set a given unit to Train, say 70%, and allow replacements just before disbanding into another unit, they come back with experience in the 40's, as opposed to the usual crap 30s I see.

Perhaps they're training during the 90 days prior to reactivation.

Or maybe it's just my lucky socks...


Look at the individual pilots .. I suspect what you're seeing is some wounded pilots that you couldn't see when you disbanded the unit that rejoined during the 90 days and drive up the "average" experience you see at the group level.




BLurking -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/9/2007 6:33:28 PM)

Good point. I've got a group of Zeroes due back in a day or so, I'll check it out.

Thanks for the dash of cold water...



BLurking -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/15/2007 5:47:17 AM)

Minor update:

Here's the pilot roster after 90 days, just reappeared at Osaka. I don't see any WIA returning pilots, but the experience levels are definitely better than what would be drawn from an empty pilot pool.

Still don't know if training while disbanded makes any difference, but I'll keep doing it anyway...

[image]local://upfiles/15858/93BC84191E61443391D4F5BF8A26448D.jpg[/image]



jwilkerson -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/15/2007 6:43:24 AM)

Once they return there are no longer WIA, but they might have been WIA when you disbanded the units. Pilots stay attached to their units even when they are wounded, but you can't see them anymore until the day they come back to duty (unwounded).




BLurking -> RE: very frustrating issue (5/15/2007 4:24:56 PM)

None of these pilots have missions or kills, so I'm assuming they're all rookies.

It wouldn't matter a great deal, but Wobbly and I have agreed to no ground attack training for our pilots, so every little bit helps. Almost to '44, and everyone who can get the plane off the ground and raise the landing gear is needed...



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