That 1 casualty guarantee!! (Full Version)

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Venger -> That 1 casualty guarantee!! (8/29/2000 6:25:00 AM)

Just beat the snot out of some more Russians, but had a VERY annoying result that cannot be explained... I was defending and had several entrenched 90mm and 76mm guns in various positions. Of course the Russians came at me with T34/85, IS-2, KV1, and ISU-122. My guns open up, and do well. Except... For some reason, every time the freaking ISU-122's fire, they get a casualty. EVERY TIME. Unit's entrenched, no matter, 1 casualty. 2 percent hit chance, no matter, 1 casualty. 30 hexes, no matter, 1 casualty. Needless to say this caused me great consternation, so much so I was forced to destroy all those ISU-122's... Still, why on earth is that happening? It makes zero sense. The other tanks opened up with their 75 and 85's, and with 2% chance... 1 suppression. But those 122 get a free casualty. It bites. Anyone else notice or have an explanation? Thanks, Venger



orc4hire -> (8/29/2000 6:44:00 AM)

It's the AI's way of compensating the Russians for the .50 caliber machine guns the Americans have that are slaved to the tank main gun, like the tribarrel on a Hammer's Slammers supertank, and fire every time at any range.



gdpsnake -> (8/29/2000 7:28:00 AM)

I've noticed similar instances of outrageous fortune. Seems to me that when the computer knows it's getting beat bad it begins to shine with uncanny luck. But I guess it's just me - no cheating allowed right!



Figmo -> (8/29/2000 7:42:00 AM)

Venger, I must admit that I haven't noticed this [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/redface.gif[/img] but will check it out right away!! It doesn't sound right to me either. Does it also happen with SU-152s? On another OT note - orc4hire - you read "Hammer's Slammers" - COOOL!! I haven't read one of those in years - loved 'em - read about 4 or 5 - do they still make them?? Figmo



Tombstone -> (8/29/2000 7:43:00 AM)

I think the size of the explosion is not considered when the 1% or 2% value is calculated. Its a lot bigger explosion.. I agree that ALWAYS one casualty is annoying, but maybe if a 122mm shell blows up less than 50m away from 10 guys one either gets killed, wounded, or freaked out so bad he dont fight no more... It's probably explainable in one way or another. You dont need to hit with explosive weapons to cause casualties or damage. Tomo



victorhauser -> (8/29/2000 9:29:00 AM)

This bug has been around since v1.0 of SPWaW. I've reported it in several different threads, but it is not yet recognized as a bug. Also, it is not limited to ISU-122s. Just yesterday one of my US rifle squads (experience 73) got itself in a firefight with Japanese Type A squad that was in cover in wooded-rough terrain. My squad started the turn with 5:5:5 shots and had a 4% chance to hit. First shot, bang-rifle hit, bang-BAR hit, bang-grenade hit. Three weapons fired and all three hit. Now my squad is at 4:4:4 with a 5% hit chance. Bang-rifle hit, bang-BAR hit, bang-grenade hit. Three weapons fired and three more hits. Now my squad is at 3:3:3. Bang bang bang three more hits. Now 2:2:2, bang bang bang, three more hits. Now 1:1:1, bang bang bang three more hits and the 15-man Japanese Type A squad is all gone. 15 weapons fired, 15 kills (oh, I had the Japanese infantry toughness set to 250%, too, as I always do). I've played dozens of SPWaW games from v1.0 to v2.3 and I've seen this behavior at least once in every game I've played. It is not unit specific, it does not happen to the same unit again and again. It seems to vary from turn to turn. On some turns I've had 2 units turn into killing machines and hit with every weapon fired, other turns nothing out of the ordinary happens. I can only tell you it happens and it happens a lot, at least once in every game of SPWaW (regardless of version or nationalities or unit types) I've ever played. It is not something that can be written off as "one of the imponderabilities of war", or "you got lucky". No amount of luck can explain what I just described above (15 weapons fired, 15 kills, where the hit % never showed above 8% against an elite Type A squad in cover in rough terrain with 250% toughness where my rifle squad was only average). But I think I'm sounding a little too strident or upset here. It's been a long day and I'm tired and cranky. Compared to many of the wonderful things the Matrix Staff has done with SPWaW, my observation (outburst?) here is small potatoes.



orc4hire -> (8/29/2000 9:54:00 AM)

Figmo, Drake still pops one out once in a while. _The Sharp End_ was the last one, but _The Voyage_ is set in the same world. Fun books. victorhauser, I've noticed the same sort of squirelly thing. The 'to hit' percentages really don't seem to mean much at all. There have been quite a few times when I've hit more with 2% shots than 85% shots. I don't know what causes it, but it can be annoying....



Paul Vebber -> (8/29/2000 12:20:00 PM)

this was brought up before - hit percent for infantry casualties is not a "roll less than this number to get an efect" but a "multiply the adjusted "firepower' of the shot by the hit chance. For very big shells that typically means 1 or more casualties are almost certain to occur, becasue of the size of the area of effect given the hex size.



Venger -> (8/29/2000 1:04:00 PM)

Well that certainly blows, somehow an SU-122 must have some type of precision airburst HE round that detonates directly over my emplacement. Blah, that makes no sense. Hitting a gun crew from 25 hexes ought to be damn difficult, not something incurring 1 casualty. Now I understand units running across the fields reenacting Pickett's charge incurring heavy damage from certain fire types (grazing MG fire for example), but a moving SU-122 or IS-3 should not get a guaranteed casualty on an entrenched gun unit from 25 hexes. Just shouldn't be. Hopefully they've addressed this somewhat in 3.0... Venger



John T_MatrixForum -> (8/29/2000 3:14:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by victorhauser: This bug has been around since v1.0 of SPWaW. I've reported it in several different threads, but it is not yet recognized as a bug. Also, it is not limited to ISU-122s.
Paul, I think Victor got something. I have had the same experience of suddenly one unit just can't fail. There might be a variable somewhere that is not cleared. Assume that that most of the time you units fire at similar range and targets, then no one will ever find the bug. BUT if you fire at range 1 and then switch to another unit someting wicked resides in memory that should not. Or whatever caused this unit to get a silly value somewhere. If it's a bug then it's a real bugger of a bug to debug. /John T.



Kharan -> (8/29/2000 3:32:00 PM)

My impression certainly is that on some battles, every artillery shell gets 1 kill (regardless of LOS, terrain, caliber), and on some battles they just don't do much (and it's not because I had fast arty on [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]). Paul, do you think casualties caused by artillery could appear on the log? Then there would be no "penalty" in using fast arty ('cept of course the sound), because arty and plane tank hits are displayed on the log.



victorhauser -> (8/29/2000 4:32:00 PM)

I don't want to belabor this issue, but the bug I've reported (in this thread yesterday and in other threads in weeks past) has nothing to do with unit type, unit size, hit %, experience, terrain, warhead size, or any other factor that might modify a unit's chance to inflict casualties. What I'm saying is that on occasion during every SPWaW game I've ever played from v1.0 to v2.3, every now and again one of my units will go on a killing spree for that turn and hit with every single weapon it fires. I've had bazooka teams (BigJim can verify this one since I killed one of his Tigers in a PBEM with this one), tanks, halftracks, rifle squads, etc. all go on killing sprees at various times. In the same game that I reported my average US rifle squad wiping out a Japanese elite Type A squad that was in-cover in rough terrain in 5 shots, I had an M3 Command Car (fire control of 0) do the same thing several turns earlier. It was a veteran unit that started the turn with 6:6:6 shots firing against a Japanese Type A squad in-cover on a hillside at 5 or 6 hex range. Bang-.50cal hit, bang-.30cal hit, bang-.30cal hit. Now at 5:5:5 shots. Bang bang bang, .50 .30 .30 all hit. Now at 4:4:4. Bang bang bang, three more hits. Now at 3:3:3. Bang bang bang, three more hits. Now at 2:2:2. Bang bang bang three more hits. Now at 1:1:1 and the elite in-cover Japanese Type squad (250% toughness) is all gone. 5 shots, 15 weapons fired, all 15 weapons hit, all with under 10% to hit displayed. As John T said, sometimes one or more of my (and his) units simply cannot fail--they hit with each and every weapon they fire that turn. No matter what. I've seen it happen at least once in every game of SPWaW I've played.



crazyivan -> (8/29/2000 5:10:00 PM)

i myself am fighting a long campi 1941-45 russians its late 43 and i have at least 12 su122s and more often than not fial to get a kia on a enemy squad even when its moving in the open but when the % go up it helps and being a large HE round often leads to surrounding units being hit as well [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]. but in real life any thing over 75mm fired direct (HE) was some what shore of a kill that flying shrapnel was a real killer.



Paul Vebber -> (8/29/2000 7:36:00 PM)

IT could be that there is a bug at work, but every time I carefully record the results and compare to the expected outcome there is not sufficient deviation to call the routine into question. The routine for applying infantry casualties is very complex, bouncing between several routines. There many well be cases where it "gets stuck in a loop" because of certain circumstances and the result is a unit going on a killing spree. That may have been intentional on Gary's part as on occasion a unit "gets hot" and mows down dozens of guys did happen. As you say, that has been there since the beginning and may well be a "bug" or a cunningly planned "feature" Gary designed in. As with many "default settings", if you think it "blows" this can be toned down by turning infantry toughness up. Using higher experience troops also make them less vulnerable to getting killed. We will continue to keep an eye out to see if there is a "bug"... As to the results of artillery barrages showing in the "results window" I think they do - I know I see a huge list of all the shots fired by OBA at the end of the turn.



Kharan -> (8/29/2000 8:58:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: As to the results of artillery barrages showing in the "results window" I think they do - I know I see a huge list of all the shots fired by OBA at the end of the turn.
So the final 3.0 results window shows not only what artillery hit or an airstrike did to a tank ("122mm Btr firing indirect - T-34 hit in front turret - main gun optics destroyed") but also how many casualties were inflicted to infantry? That's pretty neat. But I'm not going to hang you even if it doesn't [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img].



Tombstone -> (8/30/2000 2:00:00 AM)

I've run into the bug that Victorhauser is talking about several times, but I have also found that direct fire high caliber attacks 105mm+ tends to get 1 kill (or more). Tomo



Nikademus -> (8/30/2000 3:02:00 AM)

I've seen it. many many times, but not with ISU-122's. The biggest culprit is the bolt action rifle or other small arms weapons. Its always been my one great pet-peeve with the SP-III game engine. If it did'nt happen so frequently i would'nt mind, after all a 1%or 2% chance (base before other mods) may not be much, but it 'could' still happen. Problem is, is that it happens far too often. most glaring example i had recently was a Soviet advance vs a German delay in 45. Elite Soviet troops took on Green German Volksgrenadiers desperately trying to hold up the advance on Berlin. Despite their far lower than the usual German standard exp ratings (LMG's excepted and boy were they trouble!) I was still subjected to fairly frequent hits by these half trained 2nd liners even from long range. (and even with me being very careful, advancing slowly and under cover terrain) And i'll tell ya, 1 or 2 casualties may not seem like much, but in a scenerio where one does'nt have brigade sized forces those little casualties add up very quickly. I tend to treat elite troops as the battle winners they are, but also because they dont grow on trees so seeing them get whittled away in non point blank situations gets frustrating fast. Paul and the Matrix gang have gone to great lengths to explain why this quirk happens so often (the major culprit seems to be that the primary weapon slot of an infantry unit litterally gets to fire X # of times per fire round based on the # of men) and even went so far as to mix things up a bit by making exp of the unit be a factor in determining how many rifles/SMG's fire per round. But i'm still seeing it a bit and it does continue to grate a tad....especially in situations where rifles of an infantry gun are scoring more than the gun itself! ah well.....maybe ver 3 will address this one peeve i have with the modified game engine. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]



Scipio Africanus -> (8/30/2000 3:35:00 AM)

Hi Paul, I'm the one who posted the report some time ago which concerned the "million to one" set of pistol kills (successive 2-3% chances all hitting). Your explanation of the combat system was helpful in understanding that because the percentage is not a simple hit or miss calculation, but depends on weapons and numbers of men, successive low percentage hits are not as unlikely as they would seem. That being said, I have experienced many other odd things with successive low percentage shots similar to what has been posted here. It often seems that if a unit firing small arms gets a hit at 2-3% on its first shot, it will "lock on" and hit on every successive shot that turn, regardless of percentages. What is notable about this is that the return fire can sometimes come in at 15-25% , yet have very little effect on the "locked on berserk unit." As you say, it may be that the original code has instructions to allow units to "get hot". This is an understandable random factor (Steel Panthers isn't chess after all- we're not always dealing with known quantities), but as a random factor goes (if that is indeed what it is), it seems to occur quite a bit more than one might expect. Cheers ------------------ Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus



Paul Vebber -> (8/30/2000 4:01:00 AM)

We appreciate observations of this type. It helps us understand what the somtimes inscrutible code is doing :-) aside - while we have a PRETTY GOOD idea what is going on, trying to figure out what thousands of lines of undocumented C code is doing is often like one explanation of high energy phyics - imagine taking an intricate swiss watch - shooting it with rifle bullets of different types and trying to figure out how it works by the pieces that fly off :-) Sometimes we are reduced to changing something and observing the bugs that appear and from that figure out how things work!! We will keep investigating to figure out if this is is just a random manifestation of luck or truely something deep in "the machine" at work. That takes input like this to find how how often these sortsof "probability warps" appear to be happening, and under what conditions.



Paul Vebber -> (8/30/2000 6:57:00 AM)

I just tried firing a whole bunch of SU-122 shots at various ranges at German infantry both entrenched and not and found ven the ones in the open, occasionally escaped without a casualty, those entrenched did so fairly often.



Venger -> (8/30/2000 9:02:00 AM)

As I stated in the topic, the case was most evident with SU-122 against my entrenched gun emplacements, which suffered a casualy EVERY turn, without fail. I will keep a saved game the next time I notice in in effect as I have 2 companies of 90mm AA and 2 companies of 75mm AT rifles and they usually do alot of the fighting in defense scenarios... Venger



Kev -> (8/30/2000 9:47:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Venger: Well that certainly blows, somehow an SU-122 must have some type of precision airburst HE round that detonates directly over my emplacement. Blah, that makes no sense. Venger
OK, you have your 10 man squad entrenched, since they can still observe and shoot that tells you that several of them (at least) have their heads up above the edge of the shellscrape - hence big boom nearby they are vulnerable to taking blast/frag injuries.



orc4hire -> (8/30/2000 10:58:00 AM)

Kev, They're vulnerable to meteorites, food poisoning, and social diseases too. That doesn't make it reasonable to assume that a single artillery shell landing up to _50 yards_ away will _always_ cause casualties to dug in troops. These aren't low yield nuclear devices we're talking about here.



Paul Vebber -> (8/30/2000 11:49:00 AM)

Well I guess you'll just just have to see for yourselves that this doesn't appear to be happening in the latest version 3... I just shot 20 shots from SU-122s at entrenched 75mmAT guns and got 14 kills - 2 got 2 so 8 did nothing from 30 hexes away. Direct fire at a spotted unit assumes you *have it in your sites* so teh rounds aren't landing "50m away" but pretty darn close if the crew can shoot straight... The lethal blast radius of 12-15m or so and a danger area about 3-4 times that (hence the fact troops in adjacent hexes sometimes get hit). If the AT gun is firing it is assumed they are exposing themselves (No Figmo not that...) so they are assumed only partially protected. So: 1) in the latest version of the game they do not ccause casualties every shot. 2) For big rounds, fired at a point target, close is good enough and you WILL take casualties quickly from big booms. But I have only seen "streaks" that occur such that its hard to tell if its "luck" or a problem.



orc4hire -> (8/30/2000 12:12:00 PM)

Paul, Well, that brings up a whole seperate issue of the gunner of a moving tank spotting and getting 'in his sites' (sic) a dug in, camouflaged anti tank gun nearly a mile away, and being able to put instant fire on it with no shell landing more than a few yards away.... all in a matter of a few minutes. Damn good shooting. Oh, and Paul, I said '_up to_ 50 yards away.' (Emphasis added.) If you're going to disparage my remarks please at least be good enough to disparage what I actually said. And, by the way, if you don't think a long round that passed close by the gun (say a few feet high) could possibly land that far away when fired from 1000+ yards, well, I have to disagree. Depending on the terrain around the target (say, a gun near the crest of a hill) the shell could easily land _miles_ away.



Fredde -> (8/30/2000 2:11:00 PM)

Direct fire from an assault gun shouldn't be that difficult, at least not on a stationary target like an AT gun. The first shot may be well off target and used as a pointer but the second and the third should be almost straight on if the gun commander is well trained. If you count casualties as shell-shocked men, men too scared to function in their role etc etc as well as dead and wounded it makes very good sense that a ISU-122 firing on a AT gun position inflicts large casualties on the crew. I've had plenty of units going into a killing-spree too though. Most prominent my super-bazooka team, handling their Colt-45's with such expertise that they hit german infantrymen every time. Must be something ;-)



Arralen -> (8/30/2000 3:49:00 PM)

I vote for bug! Had this appear lately as well - every shot from Russ. 122mm Arty (offboard) did exactly 1 casualty to exactly the same neighbouring hex, and nothing else, neither to the target hex nor to the units in 3 other hexes as well, for all 5 or 6 rounds it fired that turn. Arralen



Hans -> (8/30/2000 6:49:00 PM)

I have just made a crude scenario, in which the bug can be reproduced at will. Itīs just a vertical row of german 75mm leIG18 and nine hex to the right of it another vertical row, this time entrenched russian paratroopers (with german scouts to spot them). Whenever a gun fires at a paratrooper team at EXACTLY 12 hex range and misses with the gun (almost always), the rifle(s) hit (always). The rifles only miss, if the gun hits or if there are no shots left for the gun. Each gun has one or two targets that are sure hits while the others are treated normally. If someone is interested (Paul?), he should tell me which files he needs; then I will mail the scenario or a savefile. It is version 2.3 without modifications. Hans



Paul Vebber -> (8/30/2000 7:49:00 PM)

I'm not disparaging anyone, I'm trying to point out that: -There are assumptions the game makes about direct fire at spotted targets, and how those targets become spotted, that you can take issue with (read my previous posts about "BORG in WW2 clothing"...thats just the way the game is...) -The game assumes that direct fire is not randomly distributed in the hex, so your statment that direct fire rounds "land up to 50m away" or "miles away" IN THE GAME is wrong. That's not to diparage you, that is to educate you how the game works. The game is not a perfect recreation of "real life" no game is. Now if you don't like the fact that your dug in AT gun gets sptotted a mile away, then turn the "spotting preferenc down to 50% or so or lower. But spotting chances have nothing to do with whether there is a bug in any of the (several interconnected) infantry casualty routines. Now, there are about 4 different "bugs" that that are being mixed together here, at least 3 of which we have already addressed in version 3. I'll take a look tonight at this latest "exclusive kill" one. But we are about 40 builds past version 2.3... [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited August 30, 2000).]



Nikademus -> (8/30/2000 8:12:00 PM)

Paul; maybe we're all approaching the subject bass-ackwards, looking for fault in the code/game engine when perhaps what we should really be looking at is the combat statistics/results being displayed for our viewing pleasure. 95% of the controversey/misunderstandings seem to stem from the 'to hit' % chance that dislays when a unit is firing. If i'm interpreting correctly from all the threads that touched on this subject, the % score that we are being shown is the *base* or unmodified score of the firing weapon and is not a true representation of the units chances of scoring a casualty. Is it feasible within the code to change the display so that we see the 'final' to-hit % score? This might eliminate some of the head sratching and frustrating caused by frequent hits when players are being shown % scores between 1% and 6%



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