Reloading Dutch ML's (Full Version)

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cantona -> Reloading Dutch ML's (5/16/2007 4:16:51 PM)

Was reading through the CHS notes and they state that the Dutch had a mine stockpile on Sorebaja. Does this mean that Dutch ML's can reload there or do they have to make the journey to a size 9 port(sydney or Singapore) or travel to the MLE in Tricomalee?

thanks



rtrapasso -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/16/2007 4:21:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona

Was reading through the CHS notes and they state that the Dutch had a mine stockpile on Sorebaja. Does this mean that Dutch ML's can reload there or do they have to make the journey to a size 9 port(sydney or Singapore) or travel to the MLE in Tricomalee?

thanks


You'll be making a long trip for refills... Singapore doesn't start with a size 9 port... Ceylon or India are the closest, unless you move an MLE...



cantona -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/16/2007 4:35:03 PM)

Thanks for the reply, i assumed singapore started with size 9, wouldnt hold onto it for long though [:(]

MLE at Tricomalee it is then



rtrapasso -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/16/2007 4:37:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona

Thanks for the reply, i assumed singapore started with size 9, wouldnt hold onto it for long though [:(]

MLE at Tricomalee it is then



i think Trincomalee is size 9 (it is in CHS) - Columbo has an MLE in CHS (size 6, iirc). Depending on the mod, either Diamond Harbor or Calcutta is size 9 as well.



cantona -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/16/2007 4:42:56 PM)

Cant recall which version ive got (2.?) but theres an MLE in Tricomalee. If the ports you mention are size 9 then the MLE can be redployed

cheers for that

cantona



Local Yokel -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/16/2007 4:45:13 PM)

I'm way ahead of you. All vulnerable invasion TF's are going to be accompanied by some highly motivated minesweepers. And if that MLE comes east then the Imperial Navy will be pleased to provide a 250 kg welcoming present. [:D]



cantona -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/16/2007 9:19:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

I'm way ahead of you. All vulnerable invasion TF's are going to be accompanied by some highly motivated minesweepers. And if that MLE comes east then the Imperial Navy will be pleased to provide a 250 kg welcoming present. [:D]



Spy!!!! [:D]



Scott_USN -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/17/2007 6:02:18 AM)

I have been holding all of Sumatra and Java in my current game. Sorebaja is now level 9 but too until like June 42 to get to that level. Didn't have any good engineers either. However I have held the area and now have control of Kendari and a good junk of Borneo.

Anyway I left my ML's just sitting and waiting I have most of Borneo mined but it didn't really have much of an effect either way on the mission to hold the area. Mines are an annoyance at best.



herwin -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/17/2007 11:52:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona

Was reading through the CHS notes and they state that the Dutch had a mine stockpile on Sorebaja. Does this mean that Dutch ML's can reload there or do they have to make the journey to a size 9 port(sydney or Singapore) or travel to the MLE in Tricomalee?

thanks


In reality, they drew on the mine stockpile in Singapore.



cantona -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/17/2007 6:42:40 PM)

Thanks for the replies



Don Bowen -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/17/2007 11:00:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

In reality, they drew on the mine stockpile in Singapore.


Sort of...

The Dutch had acquired mines from the British pre-war, including some from stocks in Singapore. There was also an allocation of about 1060 British mines reserved for use by Dutch minelayers to mine Riouw, just south of Singapore. I believe these mines were held in Singapore and did not actually get transferred to Dutch hands.

The Dutch had minelayers pre-positioned at Soerabaja, Balikpapan, Tarakan, Batavia and Palembang (assigned to mine Riouw). There were some mines at all of these locations. Shore mine depots were established at Soerabaja and Batavia - it may be that the only mines at the other locations were those already aboard the minelayers.

Total mine stocks in the NEI were 2171 Vickers Contact Mines, 265 Dutch mines, 199 special Vickers mines for laying from submarines, and 135 moored mines with controlled firing (meant to be detonated manually by an observer on shore - but not yet ready and never used). The exact date that these totals calculated in not clear - between early 1941 and the end of the campaign.

An order of 1000 mines from the US was not yet filled, and planned production on Java (of 100 per month) had not yet begun. There is no mention of mines as cargo on the ships diverted to Australia after Java fell but these lists were created by MacArthur's HQ and concentrated on army equipment.

I have a very poor quality mimeograph of a Dutch purchasing agency order list from late 1941 and can check it (if I can find it in all this mess).




Don Bowen -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/19/2007 3:35:32 AM)

Found the data. Nothing on mines but very interesting and I thought I'd transcribe it for posting.

The data comes from a Dutch Purchasing Commission summary dated Dec 18th, 1941 (I think). It is a very poor quality mimeograph and not fully readable. 3s, 5s, and 8s are quite hard to distinguish. It lists the items currently on order that are considered high priority, and requests that their delivery be expedited. It is not a complete list of what has been ordered by the NEI.

Note the Hawker Hurricanes. This order never went beyond a wish. P-40s were sent but I do not believe it was in lieu off Hurricanes.



[image]local://upfiles/757/7F4A6EEF99D2473FB63A11DD7351E38E.jpg[/image]



Feinder -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/19/2007 5:17:36 AM)

I see he ordered a couple of Harleys for himself as well...

-F-



Snowman999 -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/19/2007 6:33:25 AM)

"Fella could have hisself a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all this."



cantona -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/19/2007 11:04:09 AM)

Thanks Don for posting that little bit of history



Local Yokel -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/19/2007 1:38:31 PM)

Thanks, Don.

Interesting to note the order for "Brewster Dive Bombers" - I assumed, correctly, that this was an order for the dreadful SB2A. A little research revealed that the aircraft intended for this order were taken over by the USMC, with the controls still labelled in Dutch. The Marines used them for training purposes only, though I have seen it suggested that they may have seen limited action in the CBI theatre. The Zeno's Warbird site is currently showing a pilot training video for the SB2A, from which I learned that the design of the tailwheel is such that some straight taxiing is mandatory after making a turn and before take-off - otherwise you end up dragging the tailwheel sideways down the runway[X(]. Now there's an inspired piece of design work!

The Dutch interest in the Johnson MG is also interesting, as I'd not heard of this gun before. Evidently the designer went on to work with the Armalite Corp., and it's suggested that the bolt of today's M16 is derived substantially from this 1941 design.

No mention in the list of any naval mines, though.



wdolson -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/22/2007 11:51:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

Thanks, Don.

Interesting to note the order for "Brewster Dive Bombers" - I assumed, correctly, that this was an order for the dreadful SB2A. A little research revealed that the aircraft intended for this order were taken over by the USMC, with the controls still labelled in Dutch. The Marines used them for training purposes only, though I have seen it suggested that they may have seen limited action in the CBI theatre. The Zeno's Warbird site is currently showing a pilot training video for the SB2A, from which I learned that the design of the tailwheel is such that some straight taxiing is mandatory after making a turn and before take-off - otherwise you end up dragging the tailwheel sideways down the runway[X(]. Now there's an inspired piece of design work!

The Dutch interest in the Johnson MG is also interesting, as I'd not heard of this gun before. Evidently the designer went on to work with the Armalite Corp., and it's suggested that the bolt of today's M16 is derived substantially from this 1941 design.

No mention in the list of any naval mines, though.


I noted the requisition for SB2As too. Those turkeys make the Buffalo look terrific.

For CHS and RHS, looking at what the Dutch had ordered, I think the upgrade paths for Dutch units should be changed some. The Dutch float planes should upgrade to Kingfishers. If there were enough slots, SB2As should be included and something upgrade to them too.

As the game is now, some Dutch aircraft upgrade to something decent, while others are stuck with early war turkeys for extended periods, or the whole game.

Bill



showboat1 -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/23/2007 6:22:29 PM)

Just who were they planning on giving this equipment to? Their own men or native troops? Seems an awful lot of equipment for the Dutch to man themselves.

And the SB2A? What did their pilots do to deserve that little bit of engineering pushed on them.

Here's a little excerpt from http://www.navalaviationmuseum.org/getdoc/76d4e493-b9ef-453e-9f2b-a62930b6123d/Rollout-of-the-SB2A--Buccaneer.aspx

quote:

While many visitors recognize a number of the World War II-era airplanes in the museum because of their success in combat, the SB2A does not fall into that category, having the distinction of being one of the worst aircraft produced during the war. Sections of the aircraft buckled during high-velocity dives, not a trait desired in a dive-bomber, relegating most all of them procured by the American military to duties as an advanced trainer, where there service was short-lived. Those sent to Great Britain rarely got off the ground much less into the fight, serving as training aids for mechanics to take apart or being scrapped all together.


Sounds like Brewster Air did another bang up job.



herwin -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/23/2007 11:05:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: showboat1

Just who were they planning on giving this equipment to? Their own men or native troops? Seems an awful lot of equipment for the Dutch to man themselves.

And the SB2A? What did their pilots do to deserve that little bit of engineering pushed on them.

Here's a little excerpt from http://www.navalaviationmuseum.org/getdoc/76d4e493-b9ef-453e-9f2b-a62930b6123d/Rollout-of-the-SB2A--Buccaneer.aspx

quote:

While many visitors recognize a number of the World War II-era airplanes in the museum because of their success in combat, the SB2A does not fall into that category, having the distinction of being one of the worst aircraft produced during the war. Sections of the aircraft buckled during high-velocity dives, not a trait desired in a dive-bomber, relegating most all of them procured by the American military to duties as an advanced trainer, where there service was short-lived. Those sent to Great Britain rarely got off the ground much less into the fight, serving as training aids for mechanics to take apart or being scrapped all together.


Sounds like Brewster Air did another bang up job.


Brewster had management problems. It took some doing for an aircraft company to go out of business in wartime.



showboat1 -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/26/2007 10:44:38 PM)

Their management was so bad that I think the gov't actually had to go in and take over the company for awhile just to make sure things got done.  That's pretty bad in a wartime environment.




Don Bowen -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/28/2007 3:00:43 AM)


In a related vein. here is some data on equipment that was enroute to the NEI at the time it was overrun. This is from a report by General MacArthur's HQ detailing the cargo of those ships that went into Australian ports.


SS Bantam - 18 P-40E, 29 Marmon-Herrington Tanks, 4 37mm A/T guns, 1595 M1928 (Thompson) sub-machine guns, 20 M501 Searchlights

USAT Mapia - 6 DB-7B, 4 Brewster-439, 10 OS2U Kingfisher, 3 Marmon-Herrington Tanks, 25 M3 Light Tanks, 2 37mm A/T Guns

SS Sloterdijk - 10 Brewster-439, 7 CW-22B Falcon

SS Tabian - 3 Brewster-439, 7 OS2U Kingfisher, 12 Marmon-Herrington Tanks, 4 37mm A/T Guns, 375 Johnson semi-automatic rifles, 10,000 Enfield rifles

SS Tabinta - 3 DB-7B

SS Tarakan - 5 DB-7B, 5 Lockheed L-12

SS Tjibesar - 4 Brewster-439, 14 CW-22B Falcon

SS Tosari (or Tossari??) - 3 DB-7B, 25 M3 Light Tanks, 9580 Enfield rifles

SS Weltevreden - 5 DB-7B, 7 OS2U Kingfisher, 10 Marmon-Herrington Tanks, 6 M3 155mm Guns, 8 7.62mm Hotchkiss Machine Guns, 700 Ivor Johnson .38 revolvers, 10 TFQ 108" range finders.

SS Zaandam - 5 Brewster-439 (reached Tjilatjap but did not unload - took on 892 refugees and withdrew to Australia)

All of these cargos were unloaded in Australian Ports and allocated to the US, Australian and surviving NEI forces.



showboat1 -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/28/2007 11:54:21 PM)

Now for the big question that someone will bring up. How do we model this in the game?[:'(]



bradfordkay -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/29/2007 5:17:34 AM)

I do it by sending supply TFs to Java, and only accepting replacements once those TFs have arrived.



rockmedic109 -> RE: Reloading Dutch ML's (5/29/2007 1:29:52 PM)

A game with that level of detail would be a career in itself.  And I would gladly shell out a couple hundred dollars for it and become lost for the next few years.  But, sadly, it is not out there yet. 

It might even pay for itself.  I am sure the various command colleges of several militaries would be interested in buying it. 



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