CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (Full Version)

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ChuckK -> CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/27/2007 3:43:00 AM)

Hi everyone,

I'm not whining, honest....but....

Is the CSA AI geared to muster and conscript like crazy?

I'm curious because in my Southern Steel campaign at the 1st Sargent difficulty level the South has approx. 184k of troops in the eastern theatre and 154k of troops in the western theatre by June of '62.

Even when I play the Southern Steel as the CSA and pull garrisons into the field I can't approach those numbers. Checking the CSA units it doesn't appear that the AI is pulling garrisons, they appear to be legit. field units.

No sour grapes, but where is the AI getting these types of numbers? (and how I can do it too [:D])

Thanks



Klahn -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/27/2007 4:51:46 AM)

You sure you're seeing real numbers and not FOW adjusted numbers?



ChuckK -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/27/2007 6:29:16 AM)

Well I have Fog of War enabled, but Hide Enemy Strength disabled.  So I thought I should have accurate reads on the enemy units I can see on the Map.

Besides, a 120K army of Rebs just kicked a 60K army under Grant out of Memphis.  [8D]

Best.




Walloc -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/27/2007 12:21:56 PM)

Yes i musters alot. It has too.
Cuz so can u and u should. To achieve the numbers US fielded by 62.
If u look at ur initial governours most of the big states are support mustering and that gives u ql 3.2 troops almost as good as if u buy them. Its the best way to initially expand ur army.
If the AI is to have any chance of beating/surviving a human mustering, is has to too.
if u just sit back and give it time, it will expand. Dont allow it time. Given all, u can afford attritional warfare better than CSA. If u had no figths before june 62 it hadnt taken any losses only been allowed to muster and muster, limited by manpower ofc. By july 62 u should have half of Tn. Fighting / losses represented by Peninsual campaign and other Eastern action. Taken New Orleans, which alone is almost 10% of CSA manpower.

SS scn.

US side
North's manpower aka how much they can muster/conscript/ buy for 250is.
North Eastern forces 130k approx
Western forces 60k

CSA Side
CSA's manpower aka how much they can muster/conscript/ buy for less 100.
Has 2 governours opposing mustering taking away about 1/4 of manpower for that.
Eastern forces: 70k in virginia
Western forces 40k

So US as a far larger capacity for mustering/conscripting/buying, use it!
Take into account that if u play with population modifiers it hurts the economy and CSA side will hurt more than u. Use it.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1456674
For more on mustering/conscript/impressment.

Now fun, is to play CSA in SS![:D]

Hope it helps,

Rasmus



ChuckK -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/27/2007 4:51:26 PM)

quote:

Walloc wrote: Yes i musters alot. It has too.
Cuz so can u and u should. To achieve the numbers US fielded by 62.
If u look at ur initial governours most of the big states are support mustering and that gives u ql 3.2 troops almost as good as if u buy them. Its the best way to initially expand ur army.
If the AI is to have any chance of beating/surviving a human mustering, is has to too.
if u just sit back and give it time, it will expand. Dont allow it time. Given all, u can afford attritional warfare better than CSA. If u had no figths before june 62 it hadnt taken any losses only been allowed to muster and muster, limited by manpower ofc. By july 62 u should have half of Tn. Fighting / losses represented by Peninsual campaign and other Eastern action. Taken New Orleans, which alone is almost 10% of CSA manpower.


That sounds about right.  Except for chasing a few divisions out of the Shenandoah and taking Lynchburg with a wing of the AOtP, there hasn't been much fighting in the Eastern theatre.  The west though as been one bloody battle or siege after another.  Some of the CSA numbers may be transfers from the East as I noticed a number of oversized divisions from the ANV moving west by rail.

I haven't' done much mustering.  I've been turning out two new 9-12k divisions, one apiece for the east and western theatres every four turns.  Most of the other Northern cities are involved with building something so I didn't think mustering was necessary.  I suppose I'll reconsider.

Thanks! 



Walloc -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/27/2007 5:00:53 PM)

If u go back in time, of the patches, there werent to start with, the governours supporting mustering. As i understand it, it was introduced to give both the ability particular in july scn, but also in nov too to expande the army at the pace it did historicly. No way either of sides can through regulary production get the expansion that toke place from summer of 61 to nov 61.

Can AI at times maybe over do it, perhapse but then humans has same choice, so if any thing i see that as positive.
As said if very few casulties are inflicted on the CSA. It will grow to larger than historic numbers yes, but alrdy early in first half of 62 did CSA historicly take quite a number of casulties.
If u count those in and have same mustering rate as now i think u will fall at fairly historic numbers.
Ofc if u as US dont take advantage of the fact u can even muster more than CSA, yes u will be in problems. U dont use the advantage that was introduced to, to show the rapid expansion.
If u ask me, its really a must to do on both sides. OTOH i'd say i usually try gain 25- 40 musterings bde's as US side. Thats about an army's worth. U will need it.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



Gray_Lensman -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/27/2007 5:08:38 PM)

 
Hey Walloc, do you muster the bigger cities now that they give multiple musterings? New York, for instance will give 5 brigades at a cost of 10 men from the city. Now that is a long term hit on New York's economic output.



Walloc -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/27/2007 5:38:22 PM)

Yes i do, if its full, Men wise. Else no.

This is seen from US side, historical eco scn's.

As a rule. I never, or rarely go below 50% of a cities manpower. I abide by that rule a bit differently for the bigger cities in particular, Philly NY and Boston. Ill state why later.

Lets say a city has 8/8 producing 100% income. ill do 2 mustering so its 4/8.
That gives u 75% of the city income still. See exact formular below. A city on 0/8 would produce 50%.
6/6 i might do 2 so its 2/6. Depence on city and state. Getting LUs count into. If i miss Berdans or Yates Sharpshooters i might do an extra. If i have them i'd be less inclined.

Plus trick of the trade. U gain population back at first april turn. I might in a 6/6 city initially do 1, leaving it at 4/6 and then at start of early march since mustering its arent certain, ill do 1 more. Leaving Late march for anotehr attempt. Yes ill loss production but only for a turn or 2 since city will gain back men in early april.
Another trick is if u have city that is full in march ill do 1 mustering too, since in most cases u get the men back any how, soon after.

Why is bigger cities different and in some sense CSA side.

If looking at formular and use NY as an example. 24/28 isnt much lost in income as a % but since the income is so much higher than in normal cities it evens out.
2nd reason. I use the high men cities as designated camp cities exclusivly. The more men, the more each of the camps will produce in replacements. This means if i only buy in high men cities ill gain more buck for my money. No need to spoil that by to many musterings.
In general i dont muster much in Boston and in Philly, NY and St Louis only limited, if any.

CSA side is a bit different, IMO. They dont have any real high men cities. So the ones they have that it jsut a bit higher 7/7, 6/6 and 5/5 is so much more importand for building camps in. i designate some of those as off limits and make camps in those.

That leaves me with few choices for mustering in general, which means i to a larger degree dont abide by my 50% rule. U simply need the mustered bde cost what ever the cost is. Still firmly holding on to my designated camps cities, i dont muster in at all as CSA.

Formular.
.5+((current population of province / maximum population of province) / 2)

Hope it helps,

Rasmus




ChuckK -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/27/2007 7:45:44 PM)

I think it's time you began writing a strategy guide for FOF and see if you can get Matrix to sell it for online d/l there, Walloc.    [:D]


Thanks 'gain!



Walloc -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/27/2007 8:02:58 PM)

Im. its just spred through out many threads and posts. Too booth then its all free [:D]

Ill consider it. Just takeeeeees so long to type, with my 2 finger typing.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



Hard Sarge -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/28/2007 3:19:02 PM)

Just remember though, it is still better to build troops then to Muster or Conscript them, so for me, I only build out of the big Cities

(in SS, as the CSA I had to muster a lot, just to keep my troop numbers up, but it made fighting battles alot HARDer (one thing to think about, if you have to conscript, you can always disband them, once they join there Divs, this will let them become replacements and not lower the overall skill level of the Divs by as much))




General Quarters -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/28/2007 3:31:30 PM)

HS, mustered troops seem to be pretty good. Why don't you like them?



Walloc -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/28/2007 3:43:21 PM)

Not that im disagreeing HS, that they are better. For US IMO the trade offs are worth considering more than CSA tho.

For US the difference in moral can be very small.
Mustered US bde with governour support at 0 NW is be 3.2.
2 NW then its 3.4
4 NW then its 3.6

Vs 4.0 for bought.

Yes 4.0 is better. Considering the the cost of 50 money 50 labor and some horses, i'd say it makes the choice less clear cut.
Question is. Is 100+ resources worth the moral difference vs for free. Those resources can be used for some thing else then. So IMO its situasional.

There certainly are trade offs. At the start of a scn for US i'd with out question muster, in the governour support states. Use my resources on other things, but yes there is a price to payed in moral.

CSA is some what different.
Bought units start at 5.0 moral lot more than mustered.

Again this is all assmuing governour support of mustering.

kind regards,

Rasmus



Hard Sarge -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/28/2007 4:08:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: General Quarters

HS, mustered troops seem to be pretty good. Why don't you like them?


well, to reply to both posts

in Nov of 61, the Union does not really need, just manpower, which overall, is all muster/conscription does, spend the money you got to build up replacement centers, build some Training Centers in NY/Ohio,Penn (Boston, I like to use for Arty)

by Spring of 62, you got troops that can stand up to the CSA

(also be wise to try and set up a replacement center out West, but this is 2ndary to the Eastern one)

also, of course, it depends on who or what you are playing against



Gil R. -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/28/2007 7:26:26 PM)

An issue to consider is whether the boost that comes from governors' support AND positive national will combined is too strong. Add in a few training grounds and it's possible to muster troops that are possibly much more high-quality than makes sense from a game-design point of view.



Walloc -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/28/2007 7:34:42 PM)

I see ur point and was thinking same, but how do training grounds figur in?

They dont help on QL of musters, only produced units. Which will make the ql between produced and mustered large again.

In theory u can buy QL 10 moral troops with enough traning grounds, less Eric capped it, there is a much lower max on mustered. In theory 3.2+1.2 = 4.4. Have yet to have had 12 in NW tho, closing in my currect CSA SS game.

Walloc+ lightbulb: Thinking to my self: Ql 10 needs for US side 30 training grounds, could be done in NY, PA, OH possibly IL. Gota play a US game soon! dreams of ql 10 units [:D]

Kind regards,

Rasmus



Gil R. -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/28/2007 7:38:11 PM)

Ack, good point about training grounds -- I wasn't thinking. I hereby propose that any rule I can't remember be eliminated from the game.



Walloc -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/28/2007 7:41:44 PM)

Resisting temptation.......



Hard Sarge -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/28/2007 8:04:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

I see ur point and was thinking same, but how do training grounds figur in?

They dont help on QL of musters, only produced units. Which will make the ql between produced and mustered large again.

which is why I say, I want to build troops, instead of mustering them, but of course, you do not need to go overboard with TCs, there is no need for Ql 10 units or even 8 or 9, you start getting 4.6 to 5 units coming into your army, they will be combat ready and then able to learn from combat

that is one hassle with games, the old Camp idea worked well, until people wanted to make 30-40 camps, the same can be done with Training Centers (also can add in Reseach or any other basic idea, it can be overkill)

In theory u can buy QL 10 moral troops with enough traning grounds, less Eric capped it, there is a much lower max on mustered. In theory 3.2+1.2 = 4.4. Have yet to have had 12 in NW tho, closing in my currect CSA SS game.

Walloc+ lightbulb: Thinking to my self: Ql 10 needs for US side 30 training grounds, could be done in NY, PA, OH possibly IL. Gota play a US game soon! dreams of ql 10 units [:D]

and again, overkill, would rather spend the resourses on Man Centers and other goodies then hog all the city slots with training centers
and camps

you will win though, either way

or between us, we will win either way :)


Kind regards,

Rasmus





Walloc -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/28/2007 9:20:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

which is why I say, I want to build troops, instead of mustering them, but of course, you do not need to go overboard with TCs, there is no need for Ql 10 units or even 8 or 9, you start getting 4.6 to 5 units coming into your army, they will be combat ready and then able to learn from combat


HS i dont only use mustering. I just use it for initial expansion. 1 battle and many will be 3.95, close to 4.0. In nov scn i dont have time to build training grounds and buy trooops before april any how. So its "free" troops.
After april 62 i revert to same as u. Buying high ql troops.

One problem i see is if ppl dont muster, CSA AI might outpace them early why i suggest mustering. Use the high ql tactic on long term.

Any how my usual games by spring/summer 62, no CSA field troops left other than ANV. So only alot sieging left. No need for high ql troops for that. I usually transfere the best troops that have been trained in west to east to defeat the ANV. Let rest form siege armies. So in fact i never get to buy many troops before its over less i play with total victory conditions.

If i should make suggestions to new players. It would be start out mustering and go over to buying troops from around mid 62 as u have build training grounds.
Again depence on how much and what ppl use resources for initially. U have many, but it isnt limitless. Yes i think our results are pretty similar even if some variations in how we acheive them.

quote:


and again, overkill, would rather spend the resourses on Man Centers and other goodies then hog all the city slots with training centers
and camps

you will win though, either way

or between us, we will win either way :)


Is ql 10 utterly overkill, absolutly. Never been any where near, but the fun factor struck me. I wouldnt recommended as a tactic.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



Gil R. -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/29/2007 12:12:27 AM)

If only FOF units could be sold on E-Bay, Walloc, you could make a lot of money for yourself...



Walloc -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (5/29/2007 12:45:42 AM)

Hehe,

Idea for wargaming programmers. Make game. Sell off disliked, cant be remembered rules or new add rules in game by ebay auctions....
WCS gota think out side the (x)box Gil. [:D]

Oh wait, MS sorta alrdy doing that on xbox live...



General Quarters -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (6/9/2007 6:33:44 PM)


Walloc, this was your response to the suggestion that you write a strategy guide:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

Im. its just spred through out many threads and posts. Too booth then its all free [:D]

Ill consider it. Just takeeeeees so long to type, with my 2 finger typing.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



I wonder if someone would volunteer to collaborate with you. You could give them quick notes, and they could write it out for the benefit of us rookies.



Drex -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (6/9/2007 8:43:05 PM)

I think GQ is making an offer here Walloc.



jkBluesman -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (6/9/2007 11:37:08 PM)

I think (might be wrong though) the AAR contest shall not only motivate players to write a report that is enjoyable to read but also gives hints about what strategy to use or open the discussion on how to cope with the more aggressive AI.
But that does not mean that I will not be looking forward to a Walloc strategy guide published by his chief of staff (sorry GQ that I changed capacity and rank here).



Walloc -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (6/10/2007 12:11:56 AM)

ok ill talk to GQ, ill promise that.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



General Quarters -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (6/10/2007 5:06:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Drex

I think GQ is making an offer here Walloc.


No, I meant to say that maybe someone ELSE would collaborate on a guide. This is not the sort of thing I am good at. Sorry.



Walloc -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (6/10/2007 5:10:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Drex

I think GQ is making an offer here Walloc.


Guess he isnt [:)]

Kind regards,

Rasmus



Drex -> RE: CSA AI: muster & Conscript. (6/10/2007 9:35:04 PM)

Sorry GQ, I misinterpreted.



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