The Fate of Gunboats (Full Version)

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Jaguar1 -> The Fate of Gunboats (5/28/2007 4:37:31 PM)

I love the game and the new patch looks to be excellent. Congrats to the Team!!

A very small item I've noticed (or not noticed, in this case) is that damage to gunboats that comes about for whatever reason does not seem to be reported anywhere. Likewise, I haven't noticed the destruction of entire gunboat units noted. On several occasions I've been surprised to find gunboats I was counting on to continue a siege simply disappeared during my subsequent movement phase came up. Perhaps a line item could be included in the end-of-turn reports indicating the destruction of and/or damage to gunboats (and reason) and likewise any repair info?

Again, many thanks for an outstanding game. I plan to recommend FoF to my Civil War Roundtable discussion group.

Ron



Johnus -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (5/28/2007 5:44:54 PM)

I think you need to be careful where and when you move your gunboats. If you move them into enemy territory to help with a siege, and the besieging army fails to also move into said territory, I think you may lose the gunboats for being unsupported.



Twotribes -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (5/28/2007 8:44:16 PM)

Yes that seems to be true.



Jaguar1 -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (5/28/2007 9:11:05 PM)

I agree that there are multiple ways to lose your gunboats. My thought is, however, that it would be great if the game reported those events and the underlying reasons e.g., supply/support or combat.



Twotribes -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (5/28/2007 10:23:20 PM)

Agreed. I have lost them due to what must be a supply situation. No enemy present and in a controlled province.

I now check via supply function if the province they are in is positive supply. Whats worse is you can not see their strength go down.



Jaguar1 -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (5/29/2007 12:36:46 AM)

Good advice for checking supply sit in province. My experience has often been like yours: the gunboat seems happy and healthy then... poof, it's history. Hate it when that happens. :)



General Quarters -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (5/30/2007 1:37:46 AM)

It is puzzling that, when you click on the gunboat, the strength shows and, if you pass your cursor over the area below, popups show the quality and supply, but you kinda have to go feeling for them in the dark. It would be nice if that information appeared without having to uncover it.



ericbabe -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (5/30/2007 3:16:07 AM)

I believe the rule is that gunboats and siege artillery alone in provinces containing only other enemy units are simply disbanded at the end of all the movement sub-phases.



Twotribes -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (5/30/2007 12:35:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

I believe the rule is that gunboats and siege artillery alone in provinces containing only other enemy units are simply disbanded at the end of all the movement sub-phases.


That is not the problem though, I have had them vanish in controlled provinces with no enemy forces. And the interface does not work like other units, you can not easily see supply level, status or strength level.

I have learned to keep the same gunboats no longer than 2 or 3 turns in a siege. I make double what I need and rotate them in and out on long sieges. I have not learned how to see supply or changing strength has someone posted above. And I make sure the province they are in has positive supply.



Yogi the Great -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (5/30/2007 7:27:27 PM)

For what it's worth, I have been a bit surprised as well to see how easily gun boats dissappear.  Almost has made me wonder if it is worth the time and resouces to bother building them. 

Almost seems like the enemy is able to swim out in force, board and take over boats in the river. [;)]

Well, I'm still working on how to deal with it and getting over the surprises of where the heck did my boat go.  Wonder if there is any change in the new patch on this?



Yogi the Great -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (5/30/2007 7:30:36 PM)

One more thought - seems like it would be hard to actually create and keep enough gunboats to "duplicate" the historical situation on the rivers and still be able to adequately carry out all other asppects of the war.



Drex -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (5/30/2007 9:06:08 PM)

How many gunboats participated in actual civil war combat? Wouldn't you need them to besiege a river province city? In the game, you don't need them.



Mike Scholl -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (5/30/2007 10:06:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

I believe the rule is that gunboats and siege artillery alone in provinces containing only other enemy units are simply disbanded at the end of all the movement sub-phases.



Which is really rather odd as Union Gunboats often ranged the rivers far ahead of their armies. Foote sailed down the Mississippi to meet up with Farragut at Vicksburg after Memphis and Island #10 fell. And Grant's gunboats penetrated the Tennessee all the way to Mussel Shoals well before the Army came up as far as Pittsburg Landing.



Erik Rutins -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (5/30/2007 11:06:54 PM)

True - in FOF gunboats are not really used for that type of raiding, but they are the quickest and cheapest way to get a siege bonus when dealing with fortificatinos on a river. It would be great in the future to be able to model more of the riverine battles and some of the other gunboat operations.



dude -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (6/4/2007 3:49:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

I believe the rule is that gunboats and siege artillery alone in provinces containing only other enemy units are simply disbanded at the end of all the movement sub-phases.



Ok, if so then there's a bug... I've been playing the beta... and now the the new patch and in two games I saw gunboats that wouldn't die... see the screenshot from my current game with the new patch installed (though the game was started under the beta.)

Dude

[image]local://upfiles/16511/E5E2D5AFB5144BDCA9DD4ED0C4D0C379.jpg[/image]

ps... I shoud say they've been sitting there in those provinces for a year... (it's Jan 1863) and the AI (CSA) hasn't been in them in all that time.



General Quarters -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (6/5/2007 12:11:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

I believe the rule is that gunboats and siege artillery alone in provinces containing only other enemy units are simply disbanded at the end of all the movement sub-phases.


They also die if there are friendly units but they are inside cities. For example, if a Union gunboat is in the Cairo area, and the city is held by friendly forces, the gunboat dies when the CSA moves into conduct a siege, even if the siege is unsuccessful. This does not seem right, since a gunboat would presumably find a safe haven in the unconquered city.



dude -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (6/5/2007 2:42:49 AM)

I finally had to remove them the hard way... I edited the save game file and changed their prov. locations to CSA territory.  The promptly reinforced both our gunboats, and allowed production to restart in both places.

Only wish I had thought of it sooner.  I kept expecting them to either die or move... they did neither.

Dude



Twotribes -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (6/5/2007 11:50:26 PM)

The AI doesn't follow the same rules as us....



showboat1 -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (6/5/2007 11:54:35 PM)

It never does, the damned cheater....



Gil R. -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (6/6/2007 12:00:06 AM)

Dude, do you still have save files with those immortal gunboats? If so, you should zip them up and send them to ericbabe@west-civ.com, with a detailed explanation of what was happening. This seems like a bug which, while rare, still ought to be fixed.



Twotribes -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (6/6/2007 1:37:51 AM)

I have a gunboat stuck at little rock. Been there for quite some time, there has been no Confederate controlled territory near there in months.



Gil R. -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (6/6/2007 1:41:51 AM)

Well, that too should be zipped and e-mailed. Thanks.



dude -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (6/6/2007 6:52:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

Dude, do you still have save files with those immortal gunboats? If so, you should zip them up and send them to ericbabe@west-civ.com, with a detailed explanation of what was happening. This seems like a bug which, while rare, still ought to be fixed.



... I started to write that I didn't ... but then remembered I copied them to a safe location when I was trying to figure out if I could edit the file and either remove or move the offending gunboats... so yes.. I'll send them on.

Dude.


ps... my game has proceeded after editing the locations... only to have me take the new location a few months later... now the darn Gunboats won't die or leave again... this time I'll probably just leave them where they sit since they are not harming major production this time. (I hadn't realized I wasn't getting any production from St. Louis or Cairo for nearly 14+ turns!)



cerosenberg -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (6/26/2007 11:18:39 PM)

I am using the newest patch and have an imortal Confederate gunboat in the same location noted above.  It appears that hte cobination of location, side and unit type confer immortality.  Sorry, I am not sufficiently familar with the details of saving games to send files.



Gil R. -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (6/27/2007 12:17:37 AM)

I'm moving this thread to the Support forum, since if the problem is still in the game post-betapatch it definitely deserves Eric's attention.



Gil R. -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (8/2/2007 9:10:51 PM)

I've just witnessed Eric doing something at his keyboard, and he claims that something was fixing the gunboat bug. We still need to test it, of course, but it appears to have been solved.



Anthropoid -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (11/26/2007 8:30:51 PM)

I had a similar thing happen with an ironclad. It just disappeared off the coast of Norfolk. I had the impression that it was because it was not part of a fleet. When I had the same thing happen to a gunboat in Lower Miss province, I guessed that it was also because the gunboat was not in a fleet.

Can anyone direct to the pages in the manual that talk about gunboats? Are all boats (frigates, ships, ironclads, gunboats) that are not in a fleet at some kind of higher risk or something? Does being in a fleet somehow make them safer or stronger or something?



pzpat -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (12/12/2007 9:05:20 PM)

After winning as the South a few times I finally tried my hand as the North.  There were some things I wanted to try out.  I was using 1.10.10, 1st Sgt level, balanced scenario.  I couldn't believe how screwed up (I mean unprepared) the North was at the start.  I don't know how the North in the July '61 scenario could ever catch up to the way it is at the beginning of the November scenario.
    My support-related issue is this:  during the first turn I noticed the presence of two gunboats on the Mississippi and two siege art units at the Potomac.  I sent one siege unit by rail as far west as it would go, and ignored the others for that turn.  On the next turn, all those units had disappeared.  Now I have no gunboats and no siege artillery.  Is this supposed to happen?  And, come to think of it, as the South I have never had to deal with Yankee gunboats.
    And, I read in the manual that during a siege only 3% of the besieging infantry's value is used in the combat.  What is the exact effect of adding the engineer ability to the besieging infantry (beforehand)?
   



ericbabe -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (12/12/2007 11:13:24 PM)

I haven't heard of gunboats or siege artillery disappearing as this before.  Is it possible they are just not seen from the main map because of the overflow button (the big '+' symbol)?

The siege isn't a combat as such, but rather uses its own procedure.  So it isn't really that its only 3% of infantry that participate in sieges, but rather that infantry have a small chance of causing damage to a city's/fort's defenses.





pzpat -> RE: The Fate of Gunboats (12/12/2007 11:28:17 PM)

     I'll look again for those units when I get home.  What exactly is the effect on sieges when the infantry have the engineer ability?



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