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MarcA -> China sources (6/4/2007 12:32:57 AM)
Hi guys I am looking for resources for the 2nd sino-japanese war from 1937 to 45. In particular I would like OOB's and TOE's for both land and air units, as well as such things as dates units were introduced into theatre, etc. Imagine I am creating some sort of scenario, that sort of information [:)]. On-line resources would be good but if not, anything would be useful. Thanks all

treespider -> RE: China sources (6/4/2007 12:47:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mantill Hi guys I am looking for resources for the 2nd sino-japanese war from 1937 to 45. In particular I would like OOB's and TOE's for both land and air units, as well as such things as dates units were introduced into theatre, etc. Imagine I am creating some sort of scenario, that sort of information [:)]. On-line resources would be good but if not, anything would be useful. Thanks all See the notes on China for CHS....all my sources are listed there...plus some others I have lurking around here somewhere... But to save you the trouble... Sources: Dorn, Frank The Sino-Japanese War, 1937-1941, From Marco Polo Bridge to Pearl Harbor MacMillan Pub. Co., 1974 Fairbank, John King, etal., ed. The Cambridge History of China,Volume 13, Republican China 1912-1949, Part 2 Cambridge Univ.Press, Cambridge MA, 1986 Greiss, Thomas, etal ed. The Second World War, Asia and the Pacific US Military Academy, 2002 Hsu Long-Hsuen History of the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) Chang Wu Pub. Co., Taipei, Taiwan, 1972 Jowett, Phillip The Chinese Army 1937-49 Osprey Publishing, 2005 Romanus, Charles and R. Sunderland. United States Army in World War II: China-Burma-India Theater. Stilwell';s Command Problems Washington DC: Government Printing Office, 1956 Romanus, Charles and R. Sunderland. United States Army in World War II: China-Burma-India Theater. Stilwell';s Mission to China. Washington DC: Government Printing Office, 1953 Royer, Mark War of Resistance Designer Notes and Game GR/D Games, Grinnell, IA, 1998 Tuchman, Barbara Stillwell and the American Experience in China MacMillan Co., New York, NY, 1970l US Army Map Service, Corp of Engineers 1:2,000,000 Asian Transportation Map, 1944

treespider -> RE: China sources (6/4/2007 12:55:27 AM)
With the exception of the somewhat fictional Guerilla Base forces (created as a work around) the current chinese OoB in Treespider's CHS is IMO the most accurate to date...

treespider -> RE: China sources (6/4/2007 12:59:23 AM)
Not included in the above list of sources are: Japanese Monograph No 70 - China Area Operations Record July 1937- November 1941 Japanese Monograph No 71 - Army operations in China December 1941 - December 1943 The Growth and Organization of the Chinese Army (1895-1945) by George F. Nafziger

Blackhorse -> RE: China sources (6/4/2007 2:15:24 AM)
quote: Hsu Long-Hsuen History of the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) Chang Wu Pub. Co., Taipei, Taiwan, 1972 This is Chiang Kai-shek's "Official" history of the war. To be precise, it is a one-volume summary of the 100(!) volume official military history published by the Republic of China's Military History Bureau of the Ministry of National Defense. Not surprisingly, as China had been fully at war with Japan since 1937, their OOBs and reports don't focus on December 7, 1941. The Official History has a nice comprehensive OOB for 1940, and another one for 1944, but only covers individual battles and campaigns in-between. I imagine that there is more data to be mined from the 100 volume version; but it has not been translated into english AFAIK.

treespider -> RE: China sources (6/4/2007 2:52:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Blackhorse quote: Hsu Long-Hsuen History of the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) Chang Wu Pub. Co., Taipei, Taiwan, 1972 This is Chiang Kai-shek's "Official" history of the war. To be precise, it is a one-volume summary of the 100(!) volume official military history published by the Republic of China's Military History Bureau of the Ministry of National Defense. Not surprisingly, as China had been fully at war with Japan since 1937, their OOBs and reports don't focus on December 7, 1941. The Official History has a nice comprehensive OOB for 1940, and another one for 1944, but only covers individual battles and campaigns in-between. I imagine that there is more data to be mined from the 100 volume version; but it has not been translated into english AFAIK. You are correct. In addition to the comprehensive 1940 and 1944 lists are Charts 46 through 71 that provide OoBs for individual battles that took place throughout China from December '41 through 1945.

el cid again -> RE: China sources (6/4/2007 3:14:58 AM)
I think the most accurate work available in English for gamers is the OB for War of Resistence. It is far too detailed for us to use - giving you every significant faction's troops and every unit battalion and above - and for both (??) sides. [In China in this period to concieve there are "two" sides is more wrong than right. There is the ROC itself, the Red Army, more non-Japanese Chinese factions than you have fingers which are de facto independent, and then 7 figures of troops serving Japan - including a gigantic section of the ROC itself (still wearing the ROC uniform - but with a special anti-communist insignia added). I also have a modern Chinese army OB (I mean current) which contains many notes of interest on the history/lineage of units (they sometimes change names - and change sides too - most of the modern PLA being formerly ROC or other factional troops). [Here I mean I wrote the OB. I began with a US Army intelligence document - the Directory of Military Personalities of the People's Liberation Army - for most of it - and official material from Taiwan for the rest - and modified it item by item as required - supported by a PLA historian educated in China but resident in the USA. It is rather massive - in two parts - ROC and PLA - and not focused on the period of WITP - but at least you can read it in English and the notes of famous actions are also in English] One thing absent in the CHS OB at the moment is the actual names of the units - notably Field Armies and Group Armies. No form of the Chinese army adopted the term "corps" until a few years ago. Using these terms helps create a sense of historical flavor - and also identifies the size of the unit - because a Field Army uniformly has two divisions while a Group Army uniformly has three divisions. In that sense, at a minimum, RHS is at the moment slightly more historical. As for what is in a division - it is very hard to know - and I am not at all confident any of us have it right. But I did note an absence of mortars and MMG in the old CHS data set - and added typical numbers to each unit. The guerilla concept was invented by Treespider - and I liked it so much I greatly expanded the number of these units. I modified them so they "live off the land" but also so they don't tend to be able to mass like regular units can - they are not normally "under command" - but will retreat if hurt badly - and then you have control until they "plant" again. Being tied to an area means you have good intel there - which is part of their function IRL. These units are semi-abstract - but I made them larger - gave them a handful of heavy weapons - and modeled them on a famous example. I think the modified form is so effective I don't worry at all about the "garrison rule" - like all Chinese units they respawn quickly - and it is hard to be rid of them.

Philodraco -> RE: China sources (6/4/2007 3:52:50 AM)
OB for War of Resistence is very detail but because too detail, it has some mistakes.

MarcA -> RE: China sources (6/4/2007 10:40:59 AM)
Great stuff guys. It certainly gives me plenty to consider.

Philodraco -> The order of battle of Chinese army in the beginning of the 2nd Sino Japanese war (1937-1945) (6/25/2007 10:04:32 AM)
The order of battle of Chinese army in the beginning of the 2nd Sino Japanese war (1937-1945) National Military Council Chairman - Chiang Kai Shek Chief of the General Staff - Ho Ying ch'in Vice Chief of the General Staff - Pai Ch'ung hsi War Zone War zone, or Military Regions or War Areas, were military districts and the largest formations of the National Revolutionary Army, under the National Military Council, chaired by Chiang Kai Shek during the Second Sino-Japanese War and World War Two. During the Second Sino-Japanese War the National Revolutionary Army eventually organized itself into twelve War zones. 1st War Zone - Hebei, northern Peiking - Hankou Railway Front (Cheng Ch'ien) 2nd War Zone - Shanxi (Yen Hsi shan) 3rd War Zone - Shanghai (Chiang Kai Shek) 4th War Zone - Guangdong, Guangxi (Yu Han mou) 5th War Zone - South part of Tientsin - Pukow Railway Front (Li Tsung jen) 6th War Zone - North part of Tientsin - Pukow Railway Front (Feng Yu hsiang)

Philodraco -> RE: The order of battle of Chinese army in the beginning of the 2nd Sino Japanese war (1937-1945) (6/25/2007 10:05:35 AM)
Group Army A Group Army is a major type of Chinese military organization, and usually exercised command over two or more Armies or several Corps, and other lesser units. By the end of the Second Sino-Japanese War the National Revolutionary Army had organized 40 Group Armies. These were roughly equivalent to an Army in British or American military terminology. 1st (Song Che yuan) Corps: 59 68 69 77 2nd (Liu Chi) Corps: 52 30 42 3rd (Han Fu chu) Corps: 12 55 56 51 4th (Chiang Ting wen) Divisions: 3 9 80 and an independence brigade 5th (Ku Chu tung) Army: 17 etc. 6th (Yang Ai yuan) Corps: 33 34 and New 2nd Div. 7th (Fu Tso i) Corps: 35 31 68 etc. 8th (Chang Fa kuei) Corps: 69,Divisions: 52 60 61, independence 45 brigade 9th (Chang Chih chung) Corps: 5 and Training Division of the Central Military Academy 10th (Liu Chien hsu) Corps: 28 70 11th (Chu Shao liang) Corps: 51 58 12th (Yu Han mou) Corps: 62 63 64 65 13th (T'ang En po) Divisions: 4 89 14th (Wei Li huang) Corps: 14 etc. 15th (Chen Cheng) Corps: 18 54 16th (Hsia Wei) Corps: 84 31 17th (Ma Hung kuei) Corps: 81 11 18th (Chu Teh) Divisions: 115 120 129 etc. 19th (Hsueh Yueh) Corps: 16 25 75 39 73 76 20th (Shang Chen) Corps: 32, independence 46 brigade 14 cav. Brigade 21st (Liao Lie) Corps: 7 48 22nd (Teng Hsi hou) Corps: 41 45 47 23rd (Liu Hsiang) Corps: 21 23

Philodraco -> RE: The order of battle of Chinese army in the beginning of the 2nd Sino Japanese war (1937-1945) (6/25/2007 10:11:02 AM)
Army A NRA Army was usually exercised command over two Corps and often a number of Independent Divisions and Independent Brigades and some supporting units. The Republic of China had more than 30 Armies during the Second Sino-Japanese War. The use of the Army was gradually reduced, but not eliminated, in favour of the Group Army after the 1938 reforms. 1st (Sun Lian chung) Corps: 30 42 2nd (Hsu Yuan ch'uan) Corps: 10 3rd (Pang P'ing hsun) Corps: 40 4th (Teng Hsi hou) Corps: 45 5th (Liu wen hui) Corps: 24 6th (Yang Sen) Corps: 20 7th (Liao Lie) Corps: 7. 8th (Hsia Wei) Corps: 31 84 9th (Li P'in hsien) Corps: 48 etc. 10th (T'an Tao yuan) Corps: 16, Divisions: 18 46 50 11th (Shang kuan Yun Hsiang)Corps: 26 12th (Chang Fang) Divisions: 76 75 13th (Liu Mao en) Corps: 15 14th (Feng Ch'in tsai) Divisions: 42 169 177 15th (Wan Yao huang) Corps: 25 75 16th (Lo Cho yin) Corps: 18 54 17th (Hu Tsung nan) Corps: 1, Divisions: 68 16 18th (Wu Ch'i wei) Corps: 4 19th (Feng Chi an) Corps: 69 77 20th (T'ang En po) Corps: 13 21st (Teng Pao shan) Corps: New1 Cav2 22nd (--) 23rd (Yeh Chao) Corps: 60 83 24th (--) 25th (P'an Wen hua) Corps: 23 26th (Wan Fu lin) Corps: 53, Divisions: 91 27th (Chang Tsu chung) Corps: 59 28th (Liu Ju ming) Corps: 68 29th (Li Han hun) Corps: 64 30th (Lu Han) Corps: 60 58 31st (Sun Wei ju) Corps: 38 96 32nd (Kuan Lin cheng) Corps: 52 33rd (--) 34th (Wang Tung yuan) Corps: 73 35th (Tseng Wan chung) Corps: 3

Philodraco -> RE: The order of battle of Chinese army in the beginning of the 2nd Sino Japanese war (1937-1945) (6/25/2007 10:48:08 AM)
Corps A NRA Corps was a type of military organization unit of the Republic of China, and usually exercised command over two to three Divisions and often a number of Independent Brigades or Regiments and supporting units. The Republic of China had 133 Corps during the Second Sino-Japanese War. After the 1938 reforms, the Corps became the basic tactical unit of the National Revolutionary Army. 1st (Hu Tsung nan) Divisions: 1 78 2nd (Li Yen nien) Divisions: 3 9 80 3rd (Tseng Wan chung) Divisions: 7 12 4th (Wu Ch'i wei) Divisions: 56 60 5th (Chang Chih chung) Divisions: 36 87 88 6th (--) 7th (Liao Lie) Divisions: 170 171 172. 8th (Huang Chieh) Tax Police Regiment, Divisions: 95 166 9th (Hao Meng lin) Divisions: 54 47 10th (Hsu Yuan ch'uan) Divisions: 41 48 11th (Ma Hung kuei) Divisions: 108, New 11th Brigade 12th (Sun T'ung hsuan) Divisions: 20 81 13th (T'ang En po) Divisions: 4 89 14th (Chen Hsien) Divisions: 10 85 15th (Liu Mao en) Divisions: 64 65 16th (Li Yun heng) Divisions: 53 167 17th (Kao Kuei tsu) Divisions: 84 21 18th (Lo Cho yin) Divisions: 11 67 19th (Wang Ching kuo) Divisions: 68 70 20th (Yang Sen) Divisions: 133 134 21st (Tang Shih tsun) Divisions: 145 146 22nd (Kao Shuang ch'eng) Divisions: 86 23rd (P'an Wen hua) Divisions: 147 148 Brigade: 15 17 24th (Liu wen hui) Divisions: 136 137 25th (Wan Yao huang) Divisions: 13 165 26th (Hsiao Li ch'u) Divisions: 44 33 27th (Kuei Yung ch'ing) Training Division of the Central Military Academy 28th (T'ao Kuang) Divisions: 16 62 29th (Chen An pao) Divisions: 26 79 102 30th (T'ien Chen nan) Divisions: 30 31 31st (Liu Shih i) Divisions: 131 135 138 32nd (Shang Chen) Divisions: 139 140 142 33rd (Sun Ch'u) Divisions: 73, Independence brigades 3 8 34th (Yang Ch'eng yuan) Divisions: 71, Bridges: 196 203 35th (Fu Tso i) Divisions: 73 101 36th (Chou Hun yuan) Divisions: 5 96 37th (Mao Ping wen) Divisions: 24 43 38th (Sun Wei ju) Divisions: 17 179 39th (Liu Ho ting) Divisions: 56 34 40th (Pang P'ing hsun) Divisions: 39 106 41st (Sun Chen) Divisions: 122 123 124 42nd (Feng An P'ang) Divisions: 27, Independence 44 brigade 43rd (Kuo Ju tung) Divisions: 26, Independence 33 brigade 44th (Wang Tsan hsu) Divisions: 146 150 45th (Teng Hsi hou) Divisions: 125 127 46th (Fan Sung fu) Divisions: 49 98 47th (Li Chia yu) Divisions: 104 178 48th (Wang Tsan ping) Divisions: 173 174 176 49th (Liu Tuo ch'uan) Divisions: 105 109 50th (Kuo Hsun ch'i) Divisions: 144 New7 51st (Yu Hsueh chung) Divisions: 113 114 52nd (Kuan Lin cheng) Divisions: 2 25 53rd (Wan Fu lin) Divisions: 116 130 91 54th (Huo K'uei chang) Divisions: 14 98 55th (C'ao Fu lin) Divisions: 29, Pistol brigade 56th (Ku Liang min) Divisions: 22 74 57th (Miao Ch'eng liu) Divisions: 111 112 58th (Sun Tu) Divisions: New10 New11 New12 59th (Chang Tsu chung) Divisions: 38 180 118 60th (Lu Han) Divisions: 182 183 184 61st (Li Fu ying) Divisions: 101, Independence 7 brigade 62nd (Chang Ta) Divisions: 151 152 63rd (Chang Kuei jui) Divisions: 153 154 64th (Li Han hun) Divisions: 155 156 65th (Li Chen Ch'iu) Divisions: 157 158 66th (Yeh Ch'ao) Divisions: 159 160 67th (Wu K'o ren) Divisions: 107 108 68th (Liu Ju ming) Divisions: 119 143 69th (Juan Shao ch'ang) Divisions: 55 57 70th (Li Chueh) Divisions: 15 19 128 71st (Sung Hsi Lien) Divisions: 36 87 88 72nd (Wang Ling chi) Divisions: 13 14 73rd (Wang Tung yuan) Divisions: 55 77 74th (Yu Chi shih) Divisions: 51 58 75th (Chou Yen) Divisions: 6 13 76th (T'ao Shih yueh) Divisions: 8 24 77th (Feng Chi an) Divisions: 37 132 179 78th (Chang Tsai) Divisions: 15 16 79th (Hsia Ch'u chung) Divisions: 76 98 80th (Kung ling hsun) Divisions: 97 43 81st (Ma Hung pin) Divisions: 35, Independence 36 brigade 82nd (Ma Pu fang) Divisions: 100 Cav8? 83rd (Teng Lung kuang) Divisions: 154 156 84th (Hsia Wei) Divisions: 188 189 New19 Cavalry 1st (Chao Ch'eng shou) Divisions: Cav1 Cav2 Cavalry 2nd (Ho Chu kuo) Divisions: Cav3 Cav6 Cavalry 3rd (Cheng Ta chang) Divisions: Cav4 Cav9 Cavalry 4th (T'an Tsu hsin) Divisions: Cav10 Cavalry 5th (Ma Pu ch'ing) Divisions: Cav5 Cavalry 6th (Meng P'ing yueh) Divisions: Cav7 New Cavalry Division

el cid again -> RE: The order of battle of Chinese army in the beginning of the 2nd Sino Japanese war (1937-1945) (6/25/2007 1:35:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Philodraco Group Army A Group Army is a major type of Chinese military organization, and usually exercised command over two or more Armies or several Corps, and other lesser units. By the end of the Second Sino-Japanese War the National Revolutionary Army had organized 40 Group Armies. These were roughly equivalent to an Army in British or American military terminology. This is incorrect - or incorrectly translated. The term Group Army more or less corresponds to a Western "corps" - and the only sense in which it might command a "corps" is that some Chinese organizations of smaller sizes were called using that name - notably Cavalry Corps (which were baby divisions or gigantic brigades of about 8 battalions - themselves called regiments of course). This term can be seen in Chinese history right up until it was abolished a few years ago - and it is STILL often used in vernacular Chinese by members of the military. And indeed it was used on both sides of the Taiwan Strait - the ROC in fact still use the term "army" more or less for a corps sized formation - although now the divisions are replaced by brigades (except for reserve divisions). That said, the number and identification of group armies provided looks very good to my eyes. The traditional Chinese "Army" had only two divisions - and it was called a "field army" during this period of time. The term "Group Army" was intended to imply a reform toward triangular organization - which indeed was popular among Western armies at the time - and the US Army in particular went over to triangular organization at the end of this period. Somewhere since WWII the term "field army" fell into disuse, and the term "group army" became universal in the PLA, while the ROC simply dropped the "field" and went with just "army" - but in both cases it was an organization of about three divisions. And it is true that a smaller formation (or more than one) could be attached to an Army HQ - just as in any military system. A "corps" is not strictly a HQ for three divisions, but also might have smaller units attached. The idea was to give the commander assets appropriate to the kind of mission he had.

MarcA -> RE: The order of battle of Chinese army in the beginning of the 2nd Sino Japanese war (1937-1945) (6/25/2007 10:15:49 PM)
On the advice of your posts I have started to track down some of the texts which you gentlemen have recommended to me. One such reference is Hsu's "History of the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945)". This certainly contains a signifcant amount of useful operational detail. One object of concern would be the impartiality and tos ome extent the over all accuracy of this and the others texts avaliable. I have seen some comments on this subject in other threads on china recently but would be interested in peoples specific opinions on this matter?

el cid again -> RE: The order of battle of Chinese army in the beginning of the 2nd Sino Japanese war (1937-1945) (6/25/2007 10:25:18 PM)
Gather all possible data - from all sides and points of view - and attempt to reconcile it. After about a year you will have a good picture.

treespider -> RE: The order of battle of Chinese army in the beginning of the 2nd Sino Japanese war (1937-1945) (6/25/2007 11:41:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mantill On the advice of your posts I have started to track down some of the texts which you gentlemen have recommended to me. One such reference is Hsu's "History of the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945)". This certainly contains a signifcant amount of useful operational detail. One object of concern would be the impartiality and tos ome extent the over all accuracy of this and the others texts avaliable. I have seen some comments on this subject in other threads on china recently but would be interested in peoples specific opinions on this matter? Hsu's volume is useful merely from an OoB perspective. It's narrative is almost comical at times in the description of the events. For a good companion to Hsu's I would suggest Dorn's book although it only describes the events through 1941, however it tracks Hsu's narrative to a degree so you can get a feel for the events on the ground from a "neutral" perspective....at least until 1941.

Philodraco -> RE: The order of battle of Chinese army in the beginning of the 2nd Sino Japanese war (1937-1945) (6/26/2007 4:07:24 AM)
Hi ed! This is a problem of translation, and this problem usually make lots of confusion.� In Chinese, Group Army is ji tuan jun. And here, I translate�Jun tuan to Army, and Jun to Corps. Actually, the word of Chinese Jun means Army in English, and Shi means division in English, but in Chinese army system, between Jun and Shi,�have no unit like western corps, and above Jun, had a unit of Jun tuan. so I translate Jun tuan to Army and Jun to corps and try to let westren people understand the system in Chinese army better. By the way, the unit of "field army" is not a unit of ROC system and it was a red Chinese army unit during the Civil war time. next I will translate the information of divisions in the beginning of the war, I will try to explain what kind of divisions, it is a huge work, please give me time to do it.

treespider -> RE: The order of battle of Chinese army in the beginning of the 2nd Sino Japanese war (1937-1945) (6/26/2007 4:30:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Philodraco Hi ed! This is a problem of translation, and this problem usually make lots of confusion.� In Chinese, Group Army is ji tuan jun. And here, I translate�Jun tuan to Army, and Jun to Corps. Actually, the word of Chinese Jun means Army in English, and Shi means division in English, but in Chinese army system, between Jun and Shi,�have no unit like western corps, and above Jun, had a unit of Jun tuan. so I translate Jun tuan to Army and Jun to corps and try to let westren people understand the system in Chinese army better. By the way, the unit of "field army" is not a unit of ROC system and it was a red Chinese army unit during the Civil war time. next I will translate the information of divisions in the beginning of the war, I will try to explain what kind of divisions, it is a huge work, please give me time to do it. So to be completely accurate we should refer to the 66th Jun ...and not 66th Army ....or 66th Corps.... I prefer to use Corps per the following : FF Liu was formerly an officer in the Chinese nationalist forces in both staff and combat assignments. He was wounded twice during World War II, and decorated "for conspicuous gallantry in action." He came to the United States and received his doctorate at Princeton University. He is the author of A Military History of Modern China 1924-1949, Princeton University Press, 1956. He provides the following chart on page 127, note the use of Group Armies and Armies before November 1938. After 1938 the Army no longer exists. In the narrative he states that the basic field organization for a tactical unit was the division the strategic unit was the corps. In addition in Hsu's History of the Sino Japanese War 1937-1945 as this to say on page 288. Hsu describes a military conference called by Generalisimo Chiang. "Based on the above-mentioned opinions (of the conference), our government proceeded to reorganize command agencies and to abolish the army and division subordinated brigade headquarters. The corps was used as a strategic unit in order to reduce the number of command levels and achieve flexibility. " I imagine the original Chinese text refered to jun. [image]local://upfiles/15342/71F018D1E7B9443C84F34C11DE9243F9.jpg[/image]

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