4 game issues - have they been fixed? (Full Version)

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Adam Parker -> 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/4/2007 3:22:39 PM)

1. When playing with the unit facing option on, the AI would never change the facing of its units to face away from the enemy at turn end leaving its armor vulnerable. As it costs no MP to do so, has this been fixed?

2. Can infantry still attack armor without AT weapons in an adjacent hex - this biggest controversy of the series?

3. Does the AI still mass all its transports at the map edge furthest away from the enemy and hog enemy exit objectives with massed armor?

4. Does the AI now attack towards its own objective hexes? As it stands the AI will usually choose a low value objective hex to focus its efforts on, leaving its major victory objectives and hence any chance of winning, go by.

Thanks,
Adam.




jamespcrowley -> RE: 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/4/2007 3:48:28 PM)

Don't know what the "official" answers will be but I believe that there has been no alterations to the AI as yet.

In fact, other than the addition of new units and nationalities, there does not appear to be any fundamental changes to the original game mechanics (unless I have missed something).

However, a patch offering some changes is planned post-release, with the potential for on-going improvements in the future, especially if the code can be successfully "hacked-Into".




Jason Petho -> RE: 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/4/2007 3:52:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Crowley

Don't know what the "official" answers will be but I believe that there has been no alterations to the AI as yet.

In fact, other than the addition of new units and nationalities, there does not appear to be any fundamental changes to the original game mechanics (unless I have missed something).

However, a patch offering some changes is planned post-release, with the potential for on-going improvements in the future, especially if the code can be successfully "hacked-Into".


James is correct!

Take care and good luck
Jason Petho




Jason Petho -> RE: 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/4/2007 3:53:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

2. Can infantry still attack armor without AT weapons in an adjacent hex - this biggest controversy of the series?


I did not know this was a controversy.

Jason Petho




Temple -> RE: 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/4/2007 7:16:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

2. Can infantry still attack armor without AT weapons in an adjacent hex - this biggest controversy of the series?


I did not know this was a controversy.

Jason Petho


I would hope they could attack ajacient armor units, even without AT weapons. This would represent desperation assaults to jam the tracks, drop grenades into open hatches, or blind the armor by shooting up the periscopes. It's a low probability attack, but certainly they could occaisionally succeed.




Jason Petho -> RE: 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/4/2007 7:20:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Temple

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

2. Can infantry still attack armor without AT weapons in an adjacent hex - this biggest controversy of the series?


I did not know this was a controversy.

Jason Petho


I would hope they could attack ajacient armor units, even without AT weapons. This would represent desperation assaults to jam the tracks, drop grenades into open hatches, or blind the armor by shooting up the periscopes. It's a low probability attack, but certainly they could occaisionally succeed.


Precisely my thinking!

Jason Petho




Arizonus -> RE: 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/4/2007 7:49:16 PM)

Jason, you've been a font of information, I'm forced to take advantage: my question is about terrain additions for the diferent games. Specifically, will "escarpment" be available for maps made in East Front now? How about caves, will they be allowed in all the games?    Thanks so much!

                                                                                                          Arizonus




Jason Petho -> RE: 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/4/2007 7:56:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arizonus

Jason, you've been a font of information, I'm forced to take advantage: my question is about terrain additions for the diferent games. Specifically, will "escarpment" be available for maps made in East Front now? How about caves, will they be allowed in all the games?    Thanks so much!

                                                                                                          Arizonus


Caves are still Rising Sun specific.

Terrain from all three map editors have been combined, so you can theoretically create a West Front map in East Front or Rising Sun.

Hope that helps
Take care and good luck
Jason Petho





dogovich -> RE: 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/5/2007 1:54:22 AM)

That's not quite correct.  Because of it's unique nature East Front's map editor was left as is.  As regards the other two games, you can build maps from all five of the different climate zones in both West Front and Rising Sun.  But that doesn't mean that you can place tropical jungles into the middle of Berlin or Germany.  If you have any ideas along these lines, I'd be happy to intertain them.

I had heard that there were some who wanted to limit infantry attacks versus armor to a max range of "0" which would basically make them defenseless versus tanks, especially since the tanks can't occupy the hex that the grunts are in unless they have already driven the grunts off in an assault.  Later grunts actually had some rather nice AT weapons like bazookas, Piats, and the ever popular Panzerfaust that made being near them a rather hazardous endeavor.  Panzer Blitz and Panzer Leader allowed for only a zero hex anti-tank range for basic grunts, and what I heard was that this was an feature that some players wanted added.  However as far as I can see there really isn't a fix available for this.  It's more of a design limitation in the software.

As we said before, the AI wasn't really altered much at all that I was involved with.  Would like to see it do away with its more annoying aspects, but that might take a little time.  Right now, I'm a little burnt out, but am still looking at how I can add some changes and inhancements.  Am looking at engineer and other related issues right now.




Uncle_Joe -> RE: 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/5/2007 3:04:28 AM)

I think adjacent infantry fire vs armor is fine. Its not like there would be some magical line that they cant cross. At that range, its could easily that the infantry and armor are becoming intermixed. I think people sometimes see two units separated by that hexline and think that they are actually 250m apart. But in the heat of combat that distinction is not likely to last long, especially at the tactical end where armor might not even SEE the infantry to avoid them.

To me, the range 1 AT fire from infantry provides a logical abstraction...dont get your armor close the crunchies...keep your distance and you'll be fine.




Jason Petho -> RE: 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/5/2007 3:42:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dogovich

That's not quite correct. 


I stand corrected.

Take care and good luck
Jason Petho




Adam Parker -> RE: 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/5/2007 1:10:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

I did not know this was a controversy.

Jason Petho


Yes. The story goes that Bob McNamara intended the series to run akin to the Panzer Blitz/Panzer Leader board games whose Inf vs AFV and AFV overrun rules are superb, tested and classic.

Jim Rose overruled him and IMO spoiled what could have been a brilliant boardgame port and series of games, regardless of the AI.

I love the look of the Campaign Series but I'd rather play Blitz/Leader for feel.




Jason Petho -> RE: 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/5/2007 4:49:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

I did not know this was a controversy.

Jason Petho


Yes. The story goes that Bob McNamara intended the series to run akin to the Panzer Blitz/Panzer Leader board games whose Inf vs AFV and AFV overrun rules are superb, tested and classic.

Jim Rose overruled him and IMO spoiled what could have been a brilliant boardgame port and series of games, regardless of the AI.

I love the look of the Campaign Series but I'd rather play Blitz/Leader for feel.


What are those rules? Can you elaborate, I am rather intrigued!

Jason Petho




vadersson -> RE: 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/5/2007 4:56:39 PM)

Do you have a copy of Panzerblitz laying around? If not you can find the basic rules on-line.

Basically Armor can only Overrun. They get a bonus to attack, but the overrun must be in clear terrian.

Infantry can only close attack armored targets. They also gain a bonus to effectiveness.

At lunch time I will try to find the details on-line.

If there were an option to enable that, you could just about simulate Panzerblitz/Leader with the Campaign series (which is how I got started playing.)

Thanks,
Duncan




vadersson -> RE: 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/5/2007 8:05:52 PM)

Here are some rules for Panzer Blitz I found on-line

Overrun Attack
A- Armored vehicle units may overrun enemy units in clear terrain.
B- To overrun a unit or stack of units, move the attacking armored vehicle unit(s) straight through the enemy-occupied hex, exiting into the hex DIRECTLY opposite the hex of entry. Overrunning units must stop in the “exit-hex” and may move no further that turn. If the exit hex is occupied by enemy units, the overrun may not be made. Overrunning units may not travel at the roadmovement rate during that turn. Overrunning units must have sufficient movement factors available to reach the exit hex. The exit hex does not have to be a clear terrain hex, nor does the entry hex: only the target hex must be clear terrain.
C- As you move over the enemy unit or stack of units, execute your attack. This is the only case in which an attack may be made during the movement phase of a turn.
D- Overrunning units attack with an increased combat effect. Figure the odds ratio of the attack using the basic AF to DF system then increase the odds by one in favor of the attacker ( e.g. a ratio of 3 to 1 increases to 4 to 1). Also subtract 2 from the die roll results (e.g. a die roll of 3 is treated as if it were a roll of 1). A defending stack is treated as one combined defense factor when being overrun. More than one armored unit may overrun an enemy stack and the overrunning units do not have to enter and exit through the same hexes. They must, however, combine their attack into one large attack factor. In other words, a defending unit or stack may not suffer more than one overrun attack per turn.
E- In determining overrun odds use only the factors printed on the units (for attacker and defender). Do not halve or double the attack factors as shown on the Weapons Effectiveness Chart. Use only the overrun “bonus” as outlined in rule “D”.
F- You may not fire overrunning units during the usual combat portion of the turn in which the overrun is made.
G- Units on Block, Wreck, Minefield or Fortification counters may not be overrun.
H- The German SPA units (Maultier, Wespe and Hummel) may NOT make overrun attacks. Halftracks may not overrun Armored Vehicles (including enemy halftracks).
I- Units may only be overrun when they are in clear terrain or clear terrain-road hexes.


Close Assault Tactics
All types of Russian and German infantry and engineer units as well as Russian cavalry units have the option of using Close Assault Tactics instead of making a normal attack. Close Assault takes place AFTER movement.
A- Close-assaulting units must be directly adjacent to the defending unit or stack of units (i.e. in one of the six surrounding hexes).
B- CAT attacks take place after all movement, normal attacking and overrun attacks are finished.
C- Units utilizing CAT may NOT make normal attacks in the same turn. They may, however, move in the same turn. (NOTE: Overrun and CAT attacks are the only exceptions to the general rule which forbids movement and combat by the same unit in the same turn.)
D- Close Assaulting units have their effectiveness increased by subtracting 2 from their die-roll result: e.g. a die-roll of “2” becomes a die-roll of “0”. The defending stack must be treated as one combined defense factor, and may suffer only one Close Assault per turn.
E- If infantry and engineer units are stacked together when Close Assaulting the same defender, the effectiveness of that Close Assault is further increased by raising the odds in their favor to the next highest ratio (as in the Overrun rule). At least one engineer unit must be stacked with at least one infantry or cavalry unit, on at least one of the hexes of Assaulting units.
F- Units capable of using Close Assault do not HAVE to use it to attack adjacent enemy units (they may attack them normally in the normal attack phase if the player so desires).
G- Close Assault is the only way in which “I” units may attack Armored Vehicle units.
H- Any type of defending unit may be attacked using Close Assault Tactics, CAT may be used in any type of terrain.
I- Russian cavalry may not move more than one hex in a turn in which it is to be used for a Close Assault. No unit may use the road movement rate and make a Close Assault in the same turn.
J- Halftracks may not use CAT.




Jason Petho -> RE: 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/5/2007 8:06:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vadersson

Here are some rules for Panzer Blitz I found on-line

Overrun Attack
A- Armored vehicle units may overrun enemy units in clear terrain.
B- To overrun a unit or stack of units, move the attacking armored vehicle unit(s) straight through the enemy-occupied hex, exiting into the hex DIRECTLY opposite the hex of entry. Overrunning units must stop in the “exit-hex” and may move no further that turn. If the exit hex is occupied by enemy units, the overrun may not be made. Overrunning units may not travel at the roadmovement rate during that turn. Overrunning units must have sufficient movement factors available to reach the exit hex. The exit hex does not have to be a clear terrain hex, nor does the entry hex: only the target hex must be clear terrain.
C- As you move over the enemy unit or stack of units, execute your attack. This is the only case in which an attack may be made during the movement phase of a turn.
D- Overrunning units attack with an increased combat effect. Figure the odds ratio of the attack using the basic AF to DF system then increase the odds by one in favor of the attacker ( e.g. a ratio of 3 to 1 increases to 4 to 1). Also subtract 2 from the die roll results (e.g. a die roll of 3 is treated as if it were a roll of 1). A defending stack is treated as one combined defense factor when being overrun. More than one armored unit may overrun an enemy stack and the overrunning units do not have to enter and exit through the same hexes. They must, however, combine their attack into one large attack factor. In other words, a defending unit or stack may not suffer more than one overrun attack per turn.
E- In determining overrun odds use only the factors printed on the units (for attacker and defender). Do not halve or double the attack factors as shown on the Weapons Effectiveness Chart. Use only the overrun “bonus” as outlined in rule “D”.
F- You may not fire overrunning units during the usual combat portion of the turn in which the overrun is made.
G- Units on Block, Wreck, Minefield or Fortification counters may not be overrun.
H- The German SPA units (Maultier, Wespe and Hummel) may NOT make overrun attacks. Halftracks may not overrun Armored Vehicles (including enemy halftracks).
I- Units may only be overrun when they are in clear terrain or clear terrain-road hexes.


Close Assault Tactics
All types of Russian and German infantry and engineer units as well as Russian cavalry units have the option of using Close Assault Tactics instead of making a normal attack. Close Assault takes place AFTER movement.
A- Close-assaulting units must be directly adjacent to the defending unit or stack of units (i.e. in one of the six surrounding hexes).
B- CAT attacks take place after all movement, normal attacking and overrun attacks are finished.
C- Units utilizing CAT may NOT make normal attacks in the same turn. They may, however, move in the same turn. (NOTE: Overrun and CAT attacks are the only exceptions to the general rule which forbids movement and combat by the same unit in the same turn.)
D- Close Assaulting units have their effectiveness increased by subtracting 2 from their die-roll result: e.g. a die-roll of “2” becomes a die-roll of “0”. The defending stack must be treated as one combined defense factor, and may suffer only one Close Assault per turn.
E- If infantry and engineer units are stacked together when Close Assaulting the same defender, the effectiveness of that Close Assault is further increased by raising the odds in their favor to the next highest ratio (as in the Overrun rule). At least one engineer unit must be stacked with at least one infantry or cavalry unit, on at least one of the hexes of Assaulting units.
F- Units capable of using Close Assault do not HAVE to use it to attack adjacent enemy units (they may attack them normally in the normal attack phase if the player so desires).
G- Close Assault is the only way in which “I” units may attack Armored Vehicle units.
H- Any type of defending unit may be attacked using Close Assault Tactics, CAT may be used in any type of terrain.
I- Russian cavalry may not move more than one hex in a turn in which it is to be used for a Close Assault. No unit may use the road movement rate and make a Close Assault in the same turn.
J- Halftracks may not use CAT.




Truly fascinating.

Thank you very much!!!

Jason Petho




HerzKaraya -> RE: 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/6/2007 1:25:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

1. When playing with the unit facing option on, the AI would never change the facing of its units to face away from the enemy at turn end leaving its armor vulnerable. As it costs no MP to do so, has this been fixed?



Even though the original versions still play on my pc, yesterday I downloaded the Matrix version. Even though I appreciate the new stuff, the point mentioned above still seems not to be fixed.
I just played the first scenario after Bootski camp (EF), and T34 still retreat exposing their rears after being shot at by a Tiger, even a PzGr platoon....I´m really dissapointed!!




Peter Fisla -> RE: 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/6/2007 5:14:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bubi Hartmann


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

1. When playing with the unit facing option on, the AI would never change the facing of its units to face away from the enemy at turn end leaving its armor vulnerable. As it costs no MP to do so, has this been fixed?



Even though the original versions still play on my pc, yesterday I downloaded the Matrix version. Even though I appreciate the new stuff, the point mentioned above still seems not to be fixed.
I just played the first scenario after Bootski camp (EF), and T34 still retreat exposing their rears after being shot at by a Tiger, even a PzGr platoon....I´m really dissapointed!!



Well since you played the original versions you should know that Talonsoft guys mentioned long time ago that AI doesn't takes use of "Armor Facing Effects". And since AI wasn't modified in Matrix version of CS...

There is nothing to "FIX" here...the feature simply wasn't code for the AI...ever - I know because I have seen the code. Writing this feature for the AI will not be an easy task. I have been involved as the lead developer of CS at the beginning of this project and I can tell you that CS code base is huge. The more features you will add to the engine the harder it will be for the AI to take proper advantage of them. I think Matrix has done a great job releasing the CS...sure there are issues and I'm also sure Matrix guys are working hard to fix them. I know cause I worked with these guys before...they are big fans of the CS.

Peter





Adam Parker -> RE: 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/7/2007 8:44:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

Well since you played the original versions you should know that Talonsoft guys mentioned long time ago that AI doesn't takes use of "Armor Facing Effects". And since AI wasn't modified in Matrix version of CS...

There is nothing to "FIX" here...



Hi Peter, as you may know I've worked with John mainly in the writing and interface art department and I respect him immensely but the fact that the AI never could apply the facing rule - is something to fix.

Don't tell me the feature which dates way back to 1997-8 was included just for head-head play [:)]

As for the difficulty in fixing it well that is another thing. The AI as a whole is lame. But in 1997 we couldn't fathom such a concept as a poor AI, we we're all just happy to have our nifty Windows 95 machines and 32 megs of ram.




dinsdale -> RE: 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/7/2007 6:40:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla
Well since you played the original versions you should know that Talonsoft guys mentioned long time ago that AI doesn't takes use of "Armor Facing Effects". And since AI wasn't modified in Matrix version of CS...


I don't mean to be rude, but if outstanding bugs and AI holes haven't been changed, the game is still contained in numerous executables and it doesn't work on VISTA, what exactly has been added to the original games the last 18 months?

I have the originals working, I had hoped after seeing the announcement in 2005, and the time it spent in development, that this game that there might be something more substantial than what appears to be a mod which didn't quite make it into the game by release.

Am I missing something? Is there content which adds value to owners of the old games as per the re-release of TOAW, or is this simply a bundling of an existing product as is?




Jason Petho -> RE: 4 game issues - have they been fixed? (6/7/2007 6:45:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dinsdale
Am I missing something? Is there content which adds value to owners of the old games as per the re-release of TOAW, or is this simply a bundling of an existing product as is?


Please look here for a list of what is new

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1476058

Take care and good luck
Jason Petho




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