STARVATION LEVELS!! (Full Version)

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heenanc -> STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/6/2007 1:39:20 PM)

Currently trying to starve out a jap unit in china.

1, There is about 80'000 troops in Canton.
2, Canton is an allied control base.
3, Hong kong is a allied controlled base.
4, The jap units have no supplies left at all.
5, There is no supply route available for the unit to gain new supply and all routes away have allied divisions stopping supplies.

Q: How long will it take for these units to be completely destroyed so there is none left, will this happen? Will bombing/bombarding help? and to what extent?


Thought I'd point out that I've been shocking attacking it but they are still able to defend themselves at better odds and getting more kills per attack than I do even though they have no supplied [&:][&:][&:]



Mike Solli -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/6/2007 2:04:39 PM)

To me it sounds like a perfect training opportunity for your air force.  Base some planes at Canton and/or Hong Kong and keep bombing them until they go away.  In the mean time, you'll train your aircraft nicely and take few losses.



heenanc -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/6/2007 2:08:46 PM)

Yeah that's not a bad idea but I want to move all the defending unit on to the next target without leaving 80'000 jap troop behind. Do supplie - less troops starve and if so how quick is what I was trying to say, also do you get points for them?



heenanc -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/6/2007 2:12:58 PM)

Cheers for the advice though [sm=sign0031.gif]



wdolson -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/6/2007 2:22:29 PM)

Starving out troops is virtually impossible.  I isolated a pocket of Japanese troops in China in January 1942 (vs. the AI) and they are still there in mid-August.  I had another pocket of troops outside Shanghai for a couple of months with constant attacks and I just finally killed them all off. 

Eliminating cut off pockets is such a pain. 

Bill



Mike Solli -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/6/2007 2:31:45 PM)

Yes, troops without supplies will starve but I can't give you a timeline.  It's been said that Allied troops starve more quickly than Japanese troops but I can't argue one way or the other. 



ned -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/6/2007 2:43:03 PM)

Well in reality actual starvation of that many troops in that well populated part of China would take a very long time. I would think running out of ammunition and thus the ability to fight would go away long before they starved to death.



heenanc -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/6/2007 3:02:24 PM)

To wdolson

In the case when you suceeded in eliminating the pocket how many troop do you think you destroyed?



RUPD3658 -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/6/2007 3:15:27 PM)

Bombardment speeds up the process.



Charbroiled -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/6/2007 3:56:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heenanc

Currently trying to starve out a jap unit in china.

1, There is about 80'000 troops in Canton.
2, Canton is an allied control base.
3, Hong kong is a allied controlled base.
4, The jap units have no supplies left at all.
5, There is no supply route available for the unit to gain new supply and all routes away have allied divisions stopping supplies.

Q: How long will it take for these units to be completely destroyed so there is none left, will this happen? Will bombing/bombarding help? and to what extent?



I had flashbacks of story problems from my math class.



RUPD3658 -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/6/2007 4:43:31 PM)

X always =2 and Y always =3

In a pinch this was my guess it I was usually right. [;)]



AmiralLaurent -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/6/2007 5:01:34 PM)


It seems to me that starvation will hit some squads per unit each day, the unit being a NLF or a division apparently not being taken into account. So while a NLF may starve in one or two months, a division may take years.

On the other hand, troops with no more supplies have their AV divided by 4 and can't repair disabled squads, so to hold off 80k straving Japanese, 20-30k Allied with forts should be enough...

Any kind of bombardment (air, naval or artillery) will help as any Jap hit will never come back to able status, and the next "hit" (from battle or starvation) it will take will destroy it.

By the way, IRL, there were still hundred of Japanese at Saipan more than one year after the "end" of the campaign here, with occasional battles and many patrol clashes.

An example of the CINCPOA communiqué of 22 May 1945:

"In mopping up operations on Iwo Island and the Island of the Marianas from May 13 through May 19, U. S. forces killed 94 of the enemy and captured 134."




Vetamur -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/6/2007 5:06:12 PM)

In my older game Im at the opposite side..Ive isolated a few different pockets of supply-less Chinese armies. I left 2 as training areas and the others I took down.. it sometimes took 2 months of rotating bombardments with deliberate attacks and (because Im sometimes impatient) some shock attacks. Gradually the casualties on the Chinese side get higher and higher and towards the end I shift to all shock attacks at start killing 5ooo to 8000 chinese a day while only losing 100 or so.  Just takes time..



AmiralLaurent -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/6/2007 5:24:54 PM)

By the way, against surrounded troops using shock attacks is a bad idea, deliberate attack will kill the same number of defenders will less casualties. Shock attack will be useful only at the end, once surrounded units will start to surrender.



moses -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/6/2007 6:15:34 PM)

Do a search for my old thread "Starvation impossible". (Sorry I don't know how to post links but I just did the search and its still there.)

Basically I placed two Japanese divisions on an isolated island with no supply and then let the game run for a year. At the end of a complete year with no supply at all not a single infantry squad had died. One division had 117 disabled squads and 330 good squads. The other division was at 67/280.

On the plus side all low density equipment had been lost. Also I had placed a couple small units such as SNLF's, base forces etc. This had all died by the end of the year. Note that this is an old thread but I'm not aware that subsequent patches have changed this appriciably.

So starvation alone will not do it. And with the isolated unit bug you will not be able to get the unit to go into the elimination routine as per the manual. An 80,000 man force isolated in a city will take a long time to dig out.

Basically you have to bombard daily and deliberate attack every 3 or 4 turns. At the beginning you should deliberate attack less frequently as the surrounded enemy still has functioning artillery and will inflict greater losses on your troops. Later on your troops will take fewer losses and you can attack more often. I would guess it will take your three months.

You should see this as a fantastic training opportunity for your troops. Not many of your squads will ever actually be killed as long as you rest them before you reach a 50% disablement level. But these repeated combat opportunities will allow you to train to high levels of ecperience.

Another trick is to wait until after you have destoyed all of his artillery and are getting high odds with each deliberate attack. Then you leave a open hex and tempt your opponent to break the siege. If he moves into the adjacent hex then your next attack will easily retreat the enemy with heavy loss.





wdolson -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/7/2007 1:40:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heenanc

To wdolson

In the case when you suceeded in eliminating the pocket how many troop do you think you destroyed?


I think it was a couple hundred thousand. A huge number of Japanese troops had been forced back to Shanghai when other cities were taken. Most were base forces pushed ahead of the Chinese death star that descended on the city.

As far as being out of supply goes, if a unit has 0 supply, shouldn't it be out of ammo too? Units without any supply at all seem to be able to scrounge up enough ammo to shoot back at any attackers for an indefinite period of time. I can sort of see issolated pockets of Japanese or Chinese hanging on physically in the Chinese countryside. There was a lot of agriculture there and they could probably scrounge something to eat. However, if they are completely out of supply, they wouldn't have any ammunition, so their ability to inflict casualties on an attacking force should be bearly nil. When I was trying to reduce the pocket around Shanghai, I would take 5000 casualties a day, even though the Japanese were out of supply.

I've also found that warships with no fuel fight just as well as fully fueled ships. It would be a little difficult to maneuver without fuel.

Bill



dtravel -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/7/2007 5:14:25 AM)

Its Lego Blocks logistics.  They disassemble the casualties to use as ammo.

The reverse is also true, when they have excess amounts of ammo they use some of it to build new soldiers and planes with.

[:D]



String -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/7/2007 12:44:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

quote:

ORIGINAL: heenanc

To wdolson

In the case when you suceeded in eliminating the pocket how many troop do you think you destroyed?


I think it was a couple hundred thousand. A huge number of Japanese troops had been forced back to Shanghai when other cities were taken. Most were base forces pushed ahead of the Chinese death star that descended on the city.

As far as being out of supply goes, if a unit has 0 supply, shouldn't it be out of ammo too? Units without any supply at all seem to be able to scrounge up enough ammo to shoot back at any attackers for an indefinite period of time. I can sort of see issolated pockets of Japanese or Chinese hanging on physically in the Chinese countryside. There was a lot of agriculture there and they could probably scrounge something to eat. However, if they are completely out of supply, they wouldn't have any ammunition, so their ability to inflict casualties on an attacking force should be bearly nil. When I was trying to reduce the pocket around Shanghai, I would take 5000 casualties a day, even though the Japanese were out of supply.

I've also found that warships with no fuel fight just as well as fully fueled ships. It would be a little difficult to maneuver without fuel.

Bill


One can always capture ammo and supplies from the enemy, smuggle it in through the encircling units etc. It's not much but still enough to inflict some casualties.



AmiralLaurent -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/7/2007 1:20:19 PM)

Milo is selling them ammunitions and is using Yossarian's B-24 to paradrop them.



heenanc -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/7/2007 2:21:00 PM)

Alright!!!  [:)][:)][:)]

Give you an update, never really tried to starve them out after the negative info placed here yesterday, however within 6 days of delebrate attack and then 2 days of shock attack I managed to get it down from 80'000 to 20'000 taking out huge numbers with the shock attacks. This I was please with as I had the impression it would take alot longer. Cheers for all the advice!!



moses -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/7/2007 3:36:53 PM)

Can you post the combat reports????



heenanc -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/7/2007 4:04:15 PM)

I'll give it a go, how do I go about it? I've only got the internet in work and have never really done anything like that before. If you Email us the basic I'll try and get it to you a quick a possible.



Yakface -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/7/2007 5:19:46 PM)

Once they are out of ammo, units fight with anything that comes to hand.  I am constantly amazed by the number of Japanese a Chinaman can dispatch with a shovel.  



moses -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/7/2007 5:34:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heenanc

I'll give it a go, how do I go about it? I've only got the internet in work and have never really done anything like that before. If you Email us the basic I'll try and get it to you a quick a possible.


Oh its easy. Combat reports are in your saved file. you just open them and then under edit you click copy. Then you paste it to your forum message.

Bad news is that the combat reports overwrite themselves each turn so if your not saving them or posting to an AAR you have probably lost them all. But that's the way it goes.

I'm just curious what kind of losses you took with 6 deliberate attacks followed by two shock attacks. What kind of condition are your troops in afterwards?

If you reduced 80,000 Japanese surrounded in an urban area that fast then this is news!!!! I don't recall anyone posting such a thing before. Possibly noone else has been willing to take the losses, or perhaps the losses arn't as bad as everyone thinks.

DETAILS Please.



MineSweeper -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/7/2007 9:46:13 PM)

I have been trying to destroy this RAF Base force outside of Ledo for over 9 Months....[X(]
The 223 RAF Base force had 42,000[X(] troops in it at the start, I have destroyed 20,000 troops so far......Amazing (very sarcastic)...

Japanese 48th Div. - 98 exp 282 AV
Japanese 13th Div. - 98 exp 243 AV
Japanese 55th Div. - 95 exp 452 AV
Japanese 53/B Div. - 95 exp 30 AV

61 Sonias 95 exp

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 02/03/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Day Air attack on 223 RAF Base Force, at 36,24

Japanese aircraft
Ki-51 Sonia x 54
Ki-46-III Dinah x 2

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
33 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
23 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
31 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 36,24

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 48936 troops, 101 guns, 2 vehicles, Beginning Assault Value = 922

Defending force 20090 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles, Beginning Assault Value = 1

Japanese max assault: 894 - adjusted assault: 900

Allied max defense: 0 - adjusted defense: 23

Japanese assault odds: 39 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
98 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
122 casualties reported




bradfordkay -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/8/2007 8:14:36 AM)

Minesweeper, which scenario are you playing?



MineSweeper -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/8/2007 8:22:30 AM)

CHS 125 Brad.



bradfordkay -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/8/2007 8:39:15 AM)

I'm trying to figure out how that unit ended up with so many troops in it. It's supposed to have about 7000 men. That's got to have something to do with why they're not reducing...



MineSweeper -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/8/2007 8:53:42 AM)

But it has made good target pratice for my A/C....though I had to move most of them to another area.....[;)]

Most likely, some type of anomaly....when I first went to battle with this Base force it had over 40,000 troops[X(]



dtravel -> RE: STARVATION LEVELS!! (6/8/2007 10:06:41 AM)

Minesweeper, are you playing against the AI?  And what size airfield is Ledo?  If the answers are "yes" and "big", then I would like to point out that AI support units can have their aviation support keep growing until it can support all the aircraft at the base.  If its a size 9 airfield and that's the only unit there....



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